Seventh Day Adventists

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Point #8) Jesus illustrated death as a sleep. Sleep is an unconscious state. Only Jesus has the power to awake an individual from the sleep of death

John 11:11-14
011:011 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
011:012 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
011:013 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
011:014 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Point #9) The Psalmist too refers to death as a sleep
Psalms 13:3

013:003 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Point #10) Job’s hope of the future life rested in the reality of the resurrection

Job 14:14,15
014:014 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
014:015 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Point #11) The resurrection of the dead will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus
1 Thess. 4:16
004:016 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
004:017 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Point #12) The Apostle Paul looked forward to the resurrection at the Second Coming as the time we would receive his crown of righteousness. The Apostle Paul’s theology of death is clearly stated in this verse:

2 Tim 4:1, 8
004:001 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
004:008 **Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. **
Point #13) Man is presently mortal (subject to death). The change from mortal to imortal will take place when Jesus comes. Then will death finally and permanently be conquered

1 Cor. 15:51-54
015:051 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
015:052 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
015:053 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
015:054 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Please don’t accuse me of taking these out of context. But if you do so. Then please look up the context and show me in what context could they possible be in to be construed in a different way.
 
Above is the proof for why SDAs believe as they do regarding the state of the dead.

You, very asutely, bring up the following texts:

“The following Scripture also support the Catholic viewpoint.1 Samuel 28, Matthew 17: 1-8, and Luke 16.”

I will answer what the SDA church believes regarding these in a following post.
 
Regarding soul sleep:

Q: Why is it Scripture speaks of death as sleep (Acts 7:59-60)? A Seventh-day Adventist friend tells me this means we become unconscious at death and don’t “wake up” until the resurrection of the dead.

A: Your Adventist friend is mistaken. The Bible speaks of death as sleep because the body looks as if it’s asleep when we die, not because the soul becomes unconscious.

In the first passage you listed, Acts 7:59-60, Stephen, before “falling asleep” in death, cries out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” That this doesn’t support “soul sleep” is clear from Jesus’ similar remark on the cross (Luke 23:46), which didn’t preclude his telling the Good Thief who died with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).

If, as the Adventists believe, human beings don’t possess an immaterial spirit which continues after the death of the body, then Stephen’s outcry (as well as Christ’s) is meaningless–there would be no spirit of Stephen for the Lord to receive.

The Bible doesn’t teach the concept of “soul sleep.” Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the rich man, for example, demonstrates that after death both the righteous and the unrighteous are aware of their fates (Luke 16:19-31).

The apostle Paul also teaches conscious existence after death. He speaks of his desire to depart this life and to go on to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). In 2 Corinthians 12:3-4, Paul tells of his being caught up to paradise and of his uncertainty whether this occurred “in the body or out of the body”–certainly an odd way of speaking if he didn’t believe in an immaterial soul or if he believed in “soul sleep.”

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9110qq.asp

In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, “When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’”

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can’t do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: “Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ–hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9503qq.asp
 
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illuminator:
Some confuse explaining what Adventist think as “hate” So it’s impossible to have a normal conversation under those circumstances with those few people. But for the rest of you, thank you for the conversation and I’ll work on Daniel 7 tonight - only because some of you asked for insight on The Great Controversy.
Thanks.
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Illuminator, I agree the SDA doctrines and beliefs which call the leader of all Catholic’s (at least futuristically) to be the Anti-Christ is not necessarily hate, but it is certainly ignorant. However, I do understand why many call it hate, for if it were leveled against any other people group, be it jews, blacks, hispanics, or any other group, it would be considered racist or wrong, but SDA’s are some of the leading proponents of this behavior towards Catholics.

Sadly SDA’s do this under the guise of try to explain their concept of Biblical teaching. I dont know how many times I sat in rooms where the evangelist or pastor would explain that we (SDA’s) do not have any ill feelings towards the Catholic people, just pointing out the teachings about the institution. Sadly, they have ignored the fact that the people make up the institution, and it is a weak stand if one tries to condemn one without the other, we are ONE CHURCH with ONE BAPTISM.

I have been traveling, and still am, but look forward to reading back in this thread and responding.

Sincerely,
Brandon
 
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illuminator:
Point #8) Jesus illustrated death as a sleep. Sleep is an unconscious state. Only Jesus has the power to awake an individual from the sleep of death
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This has got to be quick because my laptop battery is about to die 😦 But…Acts 20:9 And there was a certain young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor, and was picked up dead.

Here scripture clearly distinguishes between death and sleep, notice that the young man first slept then was dead they are not an identical state of unconsciousness, or anything like that. Further, in the next verse, scripture shows that the Apostles had the power to awake an individual from the “sleep of death”, it was not something that only Christ did as you stated above.

Finally, SDA’s do not really believe that death is a sleep, for they believe that when one dies, there is no thought or activity that continues in the grave, this is a very different state than sleep (where the person does continue to thing, dream, and respond to stimuli). Generally most SDA’s state that the in death the person ceases to exist, as the breath of life and body seperate. This requires that one be RE-CREATED not resurrected. Scripture teaches resurrection, not re-creation. An object or person which does not exist, cannot be the recipient of an action, including resurrection. So, to which do you subscribe? Resurrection or re-creation? If you say resurrection, tell me, what is resurrected, and where does it resurrect from?

Brandon
 
Don’t have time to answer all these good questions but I can’t resist just one

This is an example where a little knownledge is dangerous because it can be very misleading:

Point: Eden - you said:
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Eden:
That this doesn’t support “soul sleep” is clear from Jesus’ similar remark on the cross (Luke 23:46), which didn’t preclude his telling the Good Thief who died with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).
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Got to admit that that poses a problem for the adventist belief - until you actually look at the text more closely. Lets looks at it again realizing that every english translation of the bible has punctuation marks in it that are put in after the fact. I mean - there were no punctuation marks in the greek or aramaic etc. Here’s an example of the KJV 1611 Bible:

023:043 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now, without the punctuation it reads:

023:043 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now it can be as easily read as:

023:043 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice that this proof text no longer “proves” your point (and more importantly it matches up perfectly with my former 13 points that I have shown you from the Bible.

But you say, “well you just said that we don’t know where the commas went, how can YOU place it to suit you?”

OK - let’s out them back and see if it makes sense.

Again:

023:043 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Let’s ask ourselves the question. Was Jesus in paradise with the thief on the cross on that day?

NO! How do we know that? We’ll he died on Friday, was buried before the Sabbath started, rested on Sabbath in the tomb and rose on Sunday morning.

Well, you might ask, “How do you know that he didn’t do to heaven with the thief right after he died and then came back to rise on Sunday?”

ANSWER: Because he told us so:

John 20:17
020:017 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So you see either the comma is before the word “today” or Jesus is a liar. I definetly don’t think that Jesus is a liar

But there were other quotes and I will be more than happy to address these. Be sure however, that you read my previous 13 points to avoid duplication.

Good night.
 
Mathew 27:52, 53, 54

And the graves were opened: and many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after HIS resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him,watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, TRULY, this was the SON of God.

amen

Ruth1:16
 
RUTH!!! you stole my thunder!
ruth1:16:
Mathew 27:52, 53, 54

And the graves were opened: and many of the bodies of the saints which **slept ** arose,
And came out of the graves after HIS resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him,watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, TRULY, this was the SON of God.

amen

Ruth1:16
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amen indeed.

Notice that he says that they slept. At this time, many saints were reserected (or “re-created” whatever you want) from their graves. This was simply an earlier version of the reserection to be. This could also be some of the people that make up the “24 elders” that are talked about in Revelation. Could be - may not be - I don’t know.

Rev 4:4,10 5:5,6, 8

I have only a few more texts to deal with regarding the state of the dead, to my recollection they are:

Genesis: 1: 27.
Matthew 10: 28
Revelation 6: 9-10.
1 Samuel 28,
Matthew 17: 1-8,
Luke 16.

I will get to them sometime today:

Now several of you have asked VERY good questions such as what is in Daniel 7, the abortion issue, stuff in the Great Controversy, etc etc. I read everything you write. Unfortunetly I cannot answer it all with the time I have. I will get to you eventually. I fear that you think that I am ignoring you, or worse, you think that I can’t answer it. I will do my best - I think your questions are good and genuine. Please be patient with me - you have already.

Peace.
 
I guess there are a couple more texts that I forgot to add from the previous post:

Acts 7:59-60,
Luke 16:19-31
Phil. 1:23
2 Corinthians 12:3-4

will get back to you
🙂
 
Concerning Sabbath read Romans 14

a short question on annalination of the wicked.

I knew a man who died, who says the wicked will be destroyed in the end. He hoped he will go to heaven, but lived a lifestyle of sin because he believed the worse thing that will happen to him is non-existence.

How would SDA approach this man and his beliefs?
 
Daniel Marsh:
Concerning Sabbath read Romans 14
As an answer to the first question, this entire chapter has to do with feasts and eating. It has to do with the Mosaic feast days and what was clean to eat and what was not. He was saying, it doesnt matter what day you feast on anymore. Jesus already came!
a short question on annalination of the wicked.
I knew a man who died, who says the wicked will be destroyed in the end. He hoped he will go to heaven, but lived a lifestyle of sin because he believed the worse thing that will happen to him is non-existence.
How would SDA approach this man and his beliefs?
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To answer this, I'm not 100% sure as I am not a pastor who deals with this type of thing. But my perspective is, for how beautiful heaven is promised to be, free of all negative ideas and actions, eternal life, and consistent talking with God, is that worth missing for anything? It would sound to me like this man would just want to get away with as much as he can down here and get out of it the least painful way he can. I would approach him with the promises of heaven and how the total picture is so grand, that it cannot even into the human mind how wonderful the things are which God has ready for His saints. hope that helped! :thumbsup:
 
The Lord would not raise them from the dead, so many could see them and not believe in the resurrection. No where does it state in that scripture passage that the risen dead are the 24 elders in revelation.

ruth1:16
 
ruth1:16:
The Lord would not raise them from the dead, so many could see them and not believe in the resurrection. No where does it state in that scripture passage that the risen dead are the 24 elders in revelation.

ruth1:16
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You are right. That was just a supposition that I made. Sounds reasonable but it is of no consequence. On the first past of your post I don’t understand exactly what you are saying - sorry. Could you make it more clear?
 
“You Said: This is an example where a little knownledge is dangerous because it can be very misleading Got to admit that that poses a problem for the adventist belief - until you actually look at the text more closely. Lets looks at it again realizing that every english translation of the bible has punctuation marks in it that are put in after the fact. I mean - there were no punctuation marks in the greek or aramaic etc. Here’s an example of the KJV 1611 Bible:…
Now it can be as easily read as:
023:043 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Illuminator, I find several disturbing assumptions and misrepresentations with your case. First, you state that orginal languages were written without punctuation, which is true in the case of this Greek. However, that being the case, obviously the translators do not require punctuation in the Greek to get the nuances of the language for translation. In fact, they can look at several different aspects of the text, only a couple of which I will discuss. First, this phrase, “Verily I Say” is used 74 times (Greek: amen soi lego) and in all 74 times you will find a break after the phrase, because that was how it was used. To try to claim that we should break from the usual usage of the phrase in one case out of 74 in an attempt to support SDA theology is not logical, nor practical scriptural reading.

Second, you will find that nearly all translations of scripture that are commonly used, the NWT (Jehovah Witness) translation excepted, translate the phrase with a comma because it is clearly the single most applicable translation to the phrase, but yet you come along, likely with little or no translation or ancient language experience, and ask us to ignore the scholars in order to support your re-translation of scripture. This is something that I, and most likely, most of my Catholic peers are not likely to do… Furthermore, you have not even provided and grammatical or historical support for your claim that nearly all scriptural translators are ignorant of a clear fact that the SDAChurch is able to see.

Finally, Paradise is used VERY differently in different parts of scripture, according to scholars, such as Joachim Jeremias the word Paradise in the first century referred to a “ ‘hidden’ place of blessedness for the righteous between the time of their death and the future resurrection. This is clearly the usage reflected in Jesus’ reference to Paradise in Luke 23:43.” He was using the knowledge of the contemporary Jewish belief to point out the afterlife to those around the cross. The exact opposite of what you are doing.

All of these points reinforce the non SDA belief, and align with scholarship and scripture. I look back and find the SDA claim of a mistranslation to be a weak argument and very unsound.

You Said: Notice that this proof text no longer “proves” your point (and more importantly it matches up perfectly with my former 13 points that I have shown you from the Bible.

Actually, looking at scholarship rather than SDA “re-translation” of scripture, we find that the text does indeed support the point the writer was making, and in fact Jesus’ use of the common belief of paradise flies in direct contradiction to your position.

**You Said: Let’s ask ourselves the question. Was Jesus in paradise with the thief on the cross on that day? NO! How do we know that? We’ll he died on Friday, was buried before the Sabbath started, rested on Sabbath in the tomb and rose on Sunday morning. **

As explained above Paradise did not mean to the first century Jew the abode of God, this understanding is not introduced until after the resurrection, when many believe Christ took those in paradise with him to Heaven. Therefore, this verse can absolutely be correct, and the good thief WAS in paradise with Christ just as he promised. Christ is not a liar! You have tried to restrict this verse based on YOUR (SDA) view of paradise and other Bible verses, but it was not understood in the same way as you are trying to spin it, and will never match up with your incorrect understanding of other verses.

cont…
 
You Said “So you see either the comma is before the word “today” or Jesus is a liar. I definetly don’t think that Jesus is a liar”
First, the only two options are not that Christ is a liar or that your Re-Translation of scripture is correct. Actually, Christ was neither a liar AND the comma is AFTER the word today, which is right where scholars of language place it. Further it fits perfectly with the beliefs of the early Jews, Catholics, and most other Christians. So, either scripture is correct, or you are wrong! I think you are wrong!

I agree that Christ is not a liar, which is why I know when he promised that those who believe in him will NEVER DIE, I know that it is true! SDA’s teach that Christians do die, and then are resurrected, however, Christ teaches that the Body can be killed on earth, and we should not fear those who can do this, but that the person will never die! SDA doctrine directly contradicts this teaching!!!

(John 11:25 NASB) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,

(John 11:26 NASB) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Christ asks those in his time if they believe that they will never die and I ask you the same? Can you affirm Christ and state that you WILL NEVER DIE? Do you believe you will go on living even if you die physically?

Brandon
 
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illuminator:
Notice that he says that they slept. At this time, many saints were reserected (or “re-created” whatever you want) from their graves.
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Illuminator, sleep is only an anology of the physical body’s appearance of sleep at death. Sleep is a purely physical state in which the spirit and body remain united, death is the seperation of the body and spirit, no matter how you define spirit.

Futher you make resurrection and re-creation equivalent terms above, but they are very different. Scripture does not teach a re-creation, it teaches a resurrection. However, SDA theology requires a re-creation, this is strictly in opposition to scripture, how do you reconcile it?

Finally, Moses died and his body was buried by God, yet he appeared very much alive on the Mt. with Christ.

The evidence of life after death is VERY apparent in scripture!

Brandon
 
I really appreciate the various replies to my questions on the SDA belief that believers in Christ go to soul sleep upon death, until Jesus returns. I know Illuminator cited the Gospel of John to illustrate that Lazarus was asleep, but it seems that the parable of the riｃh man and Lazarus (Luke 16: 19-31) disputes this–so I am not sure if I am misreading something in Illuminator`s proof.

In addition to some of the Scripture others have cited, there are still a lot of other parts of the Bible that refute the SDA belief of soul sleep. Illuminator, I know in a later post, you are going to address Revelation 6: 9-10. It seems to me that this Scripture disputes your claim, so I am interesting in reading what you have to say.
Revelation 6: 9-10 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, how long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

Hebrews 12:1 also disputes the SDA belief that souls are asleep until the Second Coming because it says “We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.

In addition in John 5:11-13 Jesus says “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again; but whoever drinks the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up in eternal life.” Moreover in John 11:25-26 Jesus says “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.” In addition 2 Timothy 1:10 says “but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…” Do Seventh Day Adventists not believe this part of the Bible?

In addition, does the SDA belief in the annihilation of the wicked deny the existence of hell? The reality of hell is shown in the following:
Matthew 5; 22.
Matthew 10:28
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Revelation 20:10

Finally, John 3:36 seems to dispute SDA beliefs on heaven and hell. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. As a result, I still do not understand why SDAs dispute the Catholic belief that the soul either lives in eternity with God in heaven, or is separated eternally in hell. So, even after reading Illuminator`s proof, this SDA belief still contradicts the Bible. Am I misunderstanding the SDA stance on this?
 
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Maria1212:
I really appreciate the various replies to my questions on the SDA belief that believers in Christ go to soul sleep upon death, until Jesus returns. I know Illuminator cited the Gospel of John to illustrate that Lazarus was asleep, but it seems that the parable of the riｃh man and Lazarus (Luke 16: 19-31) disputes this–so I am not sure if I am misreading something in Illuminator`s proof.

In addition to some of the Scripture others have cited, there are still a lot of other parts of the Bible that refute the SDA belief of soul sleep. Illuminator, I know in a later post, you are going to address Revelation 6: 9-10. It seems to me that this Scripture disputes your claim, so I am interesting in reading what you have to say.
Revelation 6: 9-10 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, how long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

Hebrews 12:1 also disputes the SDA belief that souls are asleep until the Second Coming because it says “We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.

In addition in John 5:11-13 Jesus says “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again; but whoever drinks the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up in eternal life.” Moreover in John 11:25-26 Jesus says “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.” In addition 2 Timothy 1:10 says “but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…” Do Seventh Day Adventists not believe this part of the Bible?

In addition, does the SDA belief in the annihilation of the wicked deny the existence of hell? The reality of hell is shown in the following:
Matthew 5; 22.
Matthew 10:28
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Revelation 20:10

Finally, John 3:36 seems to dispute SDA beliefs on heaven and hell. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. As a result, I still do not understand why SDAs dispute the Catholic belief that the soul either lives in eternity with God in heaven, or is separated eternally in hell. So, even after reading Illuminator`s proof, this SDA belief still contradicts the Bible. Am I misunderstanding the SDA stance on this?
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This is SO not my area of expertise, but our belief is that the “soul” sleeps until judgement. Either the first to heaven for 1000 years, or the second to damnation, fire, and eventual death. Then the concept of Death will be thrown into the lake of fire, and there will be no more sadness or death. How can we be happy in heaven if our Auntie’s are out there roasting in hell? In the bible it also says that Sodom and Gomorrah was burned with an eternal fire, an unquenchable fire. Is it still burning today in the Middle East? Or was it burned up until it was gone? that is our stance as best I can explain it. I hope it helps.
 
How can we be happy in heaven if our Auntie’s are out there roasting in hell?
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Because if we make it to heaven, we will understand (to the best of our abilities) God’s infinite Mercy and Justice. If someone went to hell, they did it on their own free choice. Thus, in God’s infinite justice-they get what they chose.
 
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