Seventh Day Adventists

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illuminator:
I believe in the Bible and the Bible alone.
Dear Iluminator,
I have a follow-up question for you. You have repeatedly said that you believe in the Bible, and the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura). Ironically, this idea is found no where in the Bible. However, in order for that to be a valid proposition (the idea that all things revealed by God that are necessary for salvation are found in Scripture alone, sola scriptura itself must be located in the Bible. But it is not located in the Bible. So my question to you, is why do you believe this?

Scripture nowhere claims to be the sole sufficient faith for Christians (as SDAs and most Protestants argue). Rather, it affirms its own importance and authority as well as that of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church. (Please note I am refering to Tradition with a capital T (Tradition means the teachings and teaching authority of Jesus, and derivatively, the Apostles. I do not mean tradition with a lower case t–which referrs to erronous human tradition).

In fact, the Bible denies it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Jesuss work is in Scripture. (John 21:25). In addition, Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions to which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. (2Th 2:15). In Acts 2:42 we are told that the first Christians were "preserving in the doctrines of the apostles, and this was the oral teaching that was given long before the New Testament was written. Moreover, please read Rom 10:17. "See how faith comes from hearing, and hearding through Christs word.
It is a mistake to limit Christ`s word to the written word only or to suggest that all of his teachings were reduced to writing, and the Bible does not support that notion.

In the New Testament (2Pet 1:20) we are reminded that “no prophecy in Scripture is the subject of private interpretation.” Indeed, if the Bible was intended as each individual`s guide to the truth, and individual guidance by the Holy Spirit were a reality, each reader would understand the same thing from any particular verse since God does not teach error. Yet Protestants and SDAs have understood contradictory things from Scripture (for example the first SDAs did not believe in the Trinity, but now they do).

There are numerous other part sof the Bible that confirm Scripture is not the sole sufficient rule of faith for Christians.
Matthew 16: 18-19 : “On this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18: 17-18 If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and tax collector: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven."

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects the one who sent him.”

In addition, in the Old Testament, the Lord endowed his priests with the authority to interpret his laws and issue binding decisions based on those laws (Lev: 20:1-27, 25:1-55).

Also see Deuteronomy 17:8-13, Matthew 28:20, Acts 2:14-36, Matthew18:18, Acts 15:28-29, Luke 10:16, Jude 10-11, 1 Corinthians 10:8,11:2, 1Thessalonians 2:13, 2Thessalonians 2:15, 1Timothy 3:14-15, 2Peter 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-12, 2:1.

When reading the Bible, it is important to read the passages in context, and when this is done, it is clear that the Bible does not support the idea of sola scriptura.In fact, the idea of sola scriptura is unbiblical, given the Scripture cited above. As a result, could you explain to me why you believe this, if you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible? Or do SDAs not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible? I am asking you this with sincerity, because I am trying to understand your viewpoint. I simply want to know why you believe what you believe. While I do not share many of your beliefs, and am not attacking them, I am trying to explain why Catholics believe what they believe. And I would genuinely like to understand why SDAs believe what they believe.*
 
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illuminator:
The writings of Ellen G. White are condisered inspired ONLY becuase of the criteria put forth in the Bible regarding her writings.

More later
Hi Illuminator,
I know you are going to address Ellen G. White when time permits, but when you do, could you clarify your statement quoted above. I am not sure what you mean. I have heard some SDAs considered her writings inspired, while others do not. So I am confused by your above statement. Thanks.
 
Ok, so it seems that though the biggest issues right now are
  1. Sola Scriptura
  2. Ellen G. White and Adventist - what is the relationship
  3. Immortality of the Soul and the lap of Abraham
I think I will be able to deal with #3 most quickly (relatively speaking) Sola Scriptura is a HUGE discussion involving many texts - so suffice to say Maria 1212 for now I will have to say - take my word for it that that is what SDA beleive (at least for right now) - that I will prove things using the Bible and Bible only. I will this then go into why sola scriptura is a Bibical Doctrine - eventually. Time is a great enemy. If you are really interested than I will do this. If, however, you want to get the information more quickly, you can actually just type it in to google or yahoo and I’m sure you will get a good apologist fom a Protestant church to describe the quotes to you. I’d rather do it myself for you however - because that’s how I learn in the process too.

Actually, as an aside. I must say that in the past few weeks, I have learned more about the Bible then in the past year. It has actually strengthed my faith in my church and has been a positive experinece for me. I look forward to testing my beliefs with you all. Thank you.
 
Hi Illuminiator,
I have indeed read many of the Scripture quotes that Protestants use to try to rationalize the belief in the Bible alone. I can provide you examples, but in the interest of time, I have found that people trying to support belief in the Bible alone, have taken Scripture out of context, which is why I am interested on learning whether the SDA stance is. I know you are short on time, so there is no hurry on this.
Maria1212
 
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illuminator:
You must undersand that we get our Doctrine from the Bible and the Bible only. So we will interpret things in the Bible - based on the Bible. Not on what a dictionary thought that a certain group of Jews thought about Paradise)… If you want to bring in un-inspired extra biblical information to interpret the Bible - fine. YOu can do that to formulate your beliefs. That will never happen in the SDA church. Let me repeat that again. The church will never bring in extra-biblical information to creat Doctine for the church. The Bible is the test for truth completely. Is 8:20.
Nice try? You try to use David as an example as “asleep”, but then how does that explain Moses (Deuteronomy 34:5 - Moses died in the land of Moab) and Elijah conversing with Christ (Matthew 17)?

Next quesiton: Which Bible do you use? The Protestant Bible with only 66 books? Do you accept the Deuterocanonical books? Or deny them?

Catholic Controversy - The Protestant Violation of Holy Scripture - angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/francisdesales.html - by Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church “The Protestant Violation of Holy Scripture” - Here is an exceprt: “Acknowledge honestly that what you have done in this has only been in order to contradict the Church. You were angry at seeing in the Machabees the intercession of Saints and prayers for the departed: Ecclesasticus stung you in that it bore witness to free-will and the honour of relics. Rather than do violence to your notions, adjusting them to the Scriptures you have violated the Scriptures to accommodate them to your notions: you have cut off the holy Word to avoid cutting off your fancies: how will you ever cleanse yourselves from this sacrilege ? Have you degraded the Machabees, Ecclesiasticus, Tobias, and the rest, because some of the Ancients have doubted of their authority ? Why then do you receive the other books, about which there has been as much doubt as about these ? What can you oppose to them except that their doctrine is hard for you to accept?”

Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church - Chapter III. - The Church Precedes the New Testament - angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham3.html

If the Bible is your lone rule of faith then: How can Sola Scriptura show the valid criterion for inclusion in the Canon?
 
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Maria1212:
Hi Illuminiator,
I have indeed read many of the Scripture quotes that Protestants use to try to rationalize the belief in the Bible alone. I can provide you examples, but in the interest of time, I have found that people trying to support belief in the Bible alone, have taken Scripture out of context, which is why I am interested on learning whether the SDA stance is. I know you are short on time, so there is no hurry on this.
Maria1212
I believe you will find that THAT is the problem. We use the Bible alone. We believe this is right. Others do not. Texts can be bent to mean one thing or another. Faith and a personal relationship is whats going to make a difference. Not how many books we have, the canon, EW, views on the Trinity, Protestant views, Catholic views, etc. We are all believers in Jesus, amen? Although even that has been suggested to not be true. It would be wonderful if we didnt try to kill each other with scripture or catechism but had a real talk about pre-concieved notions about each other; across the board, I believe this would be more fruitful. Dont you?
 
Dear Fellow Forum Members,

I know we had started many threads related to Adventism that contained a lot of very informative posts that were lost–due to the hacker attack-- since they were not backed up. If any of you have saved former posts in your computers, please repost them here, or create new threads if that is the better option. I learned a valuable lesson about backing up my own files, the hard way, so most of my former posts are lost.

But there were many posts with a lot of wonderful resources and links and it would be great if posters are able to repost what they can. I learned so much from reading everyone`s posts and it would be great if we could recreate part of that to benefit other forum members as well.

Thank you in advance for your help!!

Sincerely,
Maria1212
 
Here is a copy of post from a fellow member that contains some resources related to the sabbath.

From Sabbath to Lord’s Day: A Biblical, Historical, and Theological
Investigation. Edited by DA Carson

catholicdoors.com/links/papal.htm

adoremus.org/ChurchDocs.html

rc.net/rcchurch/vatstmts/

vatican.va/offices/papal_docs_list.html

papalencyclicals.net/

Willy Rordorf, Sunday: The History of the Day of Rest and Worship in the
Earliest Centuries of the Christian Church. Philadelphia: Westminster / London:
SCM Press, 1968. ISBN: 0334015464. pp.336. {Amazon.com}

The Lord’s Day in early Christianity /
Robert Leo Odom 1965
English Book : Thesis/dissertation/manuscript Archival Material 2 v. ; 30 cm.
[S.l.] : The Author,

truthorfables.com/Sunday_First_Centuries.htm
 
Dear Fellow Forum Members,

I know we had started many threads related to Adventism that contained a lot of very informative posts that were lost–due to the hacker attack-- since they were not backed up. If any of you have saved former posts in your computers, please repost them here, or create new threads if that is the better option. I learned a valuable lesson about backing up my own files, the hard way, so most of my former posts are lost.

But there were many posts with a lot of wonderful resources and links and it would be great if posters are able to repost what they can. I learned so much from reading everyone`s posts and it would be great if we could recreate part of that to benefit other forum members as well.

Thank you in advance for your help!!

Sincerely,
Maria1212
Hi, Maria,

This is somewhat unrelated, and I never posted it, but I provide a very spiritual and Catholic meaning to the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast that would be an excellent (IMHO! 😃 ) response to the absurd beliefe that the Mark of the Beast is for Christians who worship on Sunday. In my analysis, which I think makes far more sense, the Seal and the Mark are contrasting the ultimate poles, i.e., the FULL children of God (faithful Catholics) and the FULL children of the devil (total apostates, like atheists or relativistic hedonists). In other words, the Seal of God can’t merely mean faithfulness to the Sabbath alone, but to ALL of God’s truth, which means none other than faithfulness to fullness of truth, which can only be had in total in Catholicism, just as the Mark of the Beast can’t mean merely a denial of the “true” Sabbath, but a denial and rejection of the ENTIRETY of God’s grace and truth, that is, again, a FULL apostate.

Here is the link:

The Seal and the Mark, and Everything In Between

Blessings to you, Maria!

scott
🙂

ps, I know the article is long, but it’s well worth it! trust me! 😃
 
I’m hoping someone here can answer my questions! One of my co-workers is SDA and I have some questions relating to some of his beliefs/comments:
  1. He honors the Sabbath (Saturday) instead of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) and claims that pork is still a forbidden food because of the “unclean” law in the Old Testament. Do SDA’s have some kind of a “guide” that tells them which Jewish laws are still required and which can be dismissed?
  2. He claims it was Jesus who handed Moses the Ten Commandments. Is this a typical SDA belief and, if so, can it please be explained?
  3. Whenever he defends one of his beliefs, he always uses a quote from the Old Testament, never the New. He also seems to be focused on the OT when referring to Scripture, most especially the book, Daniel. Is this typical of SDA beliefs/practices? (I’m so used to Protestants always quoting from the NT!)
  4. He claims not to be anti-Catholic, but when I was having a private discussion with another co-worker about the different “numbering” of the Ten Commandments depending on whether the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy was used as the source, he interrupted our conversation with “Catholics omitted one of the commandments!” He also insists that Catholics worship Mary, even after I have explained the truth about what the Catholic teaching is regarding Mary. Not only is this anti-Catholic behavior, but is this type of Catholic fiction taught to the members of the SDA church? Or is his behavior and comments just reflecting his own personality?
  5. And, lastly, I read somewhere that SDA’s also believe that Jesus is also Michael the Archangel. I thought this was strictly a Jehovah’s Witness belief. Can someone please clarify this?
Thanks in advance for your answers! 👍
 
I’m hoping someone here can answer my questions! One of my co-workers is SDA and I have some questions relating to some of his beliefs/comments:
  1. He honors the Sabbath (Saturday) instead of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) and claims that pork is still a forbidden food because of the “unclean” law in the Old Testament. Do SDA’s have some kind of a “guide” that tells them which Jewish laws are still required and which can be dismissed?
  2. He claims it was Jesus who handed Moses the Ten Commandments. Is this a typical SDA belief and, if so, can it please be explained?
  3. Whenever he defends one of his beliefs, he always uses a quote from the Old Testament, never the New. He also seems to be focused on the OT when referring to Scripture, most especially the book, Daniel. Is this typical of SDA beliefs/practices? (I’m so used to Protestants always quoting from the NT!)
  4. He claims not to be anti-Catholic, but when I was having a private discussion with another co-worker about the different “numbering” of the Ten Commandments depending on whether the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy was used as the source, he interrupted our conversation with “Catholics omitted one of the commandments!” He also insists that Catholics worship Mary, even after I have explained the truth about what the Catholic teaching is regarding Mary. Not only is this anti-Catholic behavior, but is this type of Catholic fiction taught to the members of the SDA church? Or is his behavior and comments just reflecting his own personality?
  5. And, lastly, I read somewhere that SDA’s also believe that Jesus is also Michael the Archangel. I thought this was strictly a Jehovah’s Witness belief. Can someone please clarify this?
Thanks in advance for your answers! 👍
Delraek,

The Adventists have an inconsistent application of the Old Testament. On the one hand, they will claim that out of all the laws in the OT, only the 10 commandments are binding, as God’s moral law. But as you state, they won’t eat pork, which is not contained in the 10 commandments, and they feel bound to anyway, as they also do strict tithing. The “guide” they use for these things are contained in the writings of their prophet, Ellen G. White, whose wrote in excess of 52 books. They refer to her writings as “The Spirit Of Prophecy”, and interpret scripture through her writings.

On whether is was Jesus or God the Father who handed Moses the 10 commandments, I can’t say as an Adventist, I was ever taught that. Perhaps he misunderstands or got more bad theology.

I was taught that Michael the Archangel was another name for Jesus. Again, Ellen White thought so, and they beleive this as a consequence of interpreting the Bible through her.

Yes, Adventists use the Old Testament alot, because their practice, such as their dietary beliefs and Sabbath observance require it. It was my experience that they have an insufficient understanding of the gospel of Christ.

The re-numbering of the commandments also comes from a superficial understanding of these things and a lack of learning how and where we got our Bibles from. The commandments are not numbered in Hebrew. When Jerome produced the Latin Vulgate from the original Hebrew, he numbered them slightly different, which really doesn’t alter anything, because they are all still there. But Adventists are suspicious of Catholics and are given this as a validation of a conspiracy of sorts to hide the “truth” about the obligation of the Sabbath in the 10 commandments.

My guess is your friend has never really investigated these things for himself, but is just presenting to you what he has been taught, as I used to do, many years ago.

Peace,
apruett
 
I hold no brief with SDAs, Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons. All recognize false prophets and hold heretical doctrines. Illuminator kept his cool for a while, but broke out his true colors under pressure. I will dialog with a true questioner, but I will not suffer fools or endure gratuitous attacks. Illuminator is anything but. He is not an inquirer, he is an attacker.
 
apruett,

Thanks for answering my questions! I guess the Ten Commandments item (#2) has something to do with “all miracles in the OT were performed by Jesus”?? I don’t get it…:confused:

Thanks again! 🙂
 
A SDA church was just dedicated a couple miles from my home and I was thinking of visiting.
Do they have any beliefs which would be considered “odd” to a Mainstream Protestant other than the whole Sabbath thing?
WP
 
A SDA church was just dedicated a couple miles from my home and I was thinking of visiting.
Do they have any beliefs which would be considered “odd” to a Mainstream Protestant other than the whole Sabbath thing?
WP
Yes - Soul sleep, dietary restrictions, end times thoughts, Ellen White as a prophet. I would suggest you not visit…
 
A SDA church was just dedicated a couple miles from my home and I was thinking of visiting.
Do they have any beliefs which would be considered “odd” to a Mainstream Protestant other than the whole Sabbath thing?
WP
I was surprised to learn that, like the Jehovah’s witnesses they believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel previously.

They are very anti-Catholic and believe a lot of misrepresentations about the Church.
 
Yes - Soul sleep, dietary restrictions, end times thoughts, Ellen White as a prophet. I would suggest you not visit…
Ellen White? Is that their founder?
I believe that I will not visit them. I asked a member of the Congregational Methodist Church that I attend what he thought about the SDA and he seems to believe that they are a type of cult.
What the SDA thinks of Methodists I do not know.
WP
 
Ellen White? Is that their founder?
I believe that I will not visit them. I asked a member of the Congregational Methodist Church that I attend what he thought about the SDA and he seems to believe that they are a type of cult.
What the SDA thinks of Methodists I do not know.
WP
Many early Adventists (including Ellen White, who yes, was among the founders of the church) were former Methodists. Accordingly, the Adventist Church shares many beliefs and ecclesiastical structures in common with Methodism.

And no, “cult” is generally considered an inappropriate label for the Adventist Church, being democratic in Church polity, trinitarian in faith, etc. That being said, many of their beliefs certainly aren’t “mainstream.”
 
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