Seventh Day Sabbath question.

[Fab82]

I am dealing with my now ex-boyfriend who is SDA about his Catholic beliefs. It is very draining talking to him. One minute he doesn’t believe in his church teaching the next minute he do. I have answered all of his questions from calling the priest father to the Whore of Babylon to the Antichrist. No matter what I show him he still do not accept anything I prove using the Bible. He knows NOTHING AT ALL about early church fathers so, when I mention them they holds no merit with him. He believes that the King James Bible was the first bible EVER created and that Catholics made our own bible (that’s just sad). When I brought up the SDA Clear Word Bible he wouldn’t talk about it. When I try to explain church history and bible history with him, it all goes over his head. It all comes down to Sabbath with SDA. And according to my ex even his salvation depends on keeping Sabbath. He talked about nothing else but the Sabbath after I proved him wrong on so many other issues (here is the kicker, he doesn’t even go to church). I’ve come to see I can only pray for him and others like him.

I know my post is off topic but reading the last few pages made we want to post anyway.

 

[pablope]

Again, I would like to see your proof that the disciples changed the Sabbath. And no, breaking bread is not going to do it. Breaking bread was not only on sunday. See Acts 2:46

 

[po18guy]

Too late to ask him. Let us just pray that, as a seeker, he will come to realize the error in the SDA and will keep seeking. The elephant in the SDA (and all bible-Christian’s) living room is the private interpretation of scriptural prophecy. They cannot overcome that, so they choose to disregard it. Peter tells of their fate.

 

[John7]

Notice what he is saying. “PERHAPS when he was in an attitude of worship on sunday.” That almost opening line does not instill confidence. Notice how he says the Greek phrase is consistently used for sunday from the Second Century on. Interesting how this phrase was used during roughly the time of Hadrian’s anti Sabbath crusade. He even says this is not a fatal objection. When you compare this meaning to the Old Testament view of the Day of the Lord, you will see; again, it is Saturday. Jesus also lays claim over Saturday as the Day of the Lord. Even your own scholar is not completely convinced of his view.

the point that was being made with the highlight and underline makes it clear you can’t use Rev 1.10 as a prooftext for claiming the Lord’s day that John speaks of (Sunday) is the eschatological Day of the Lord and therefore Saturday, for,

“κυριακός is never used of the “Day of the Lord” in the LXX, NT, or early fathers.”

what is used in these (LXX, NT, ECFs) is ἡμέρα κυρίου - or - ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ κυρίου

just noticed, he be banned…maybe he’ll read

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bogeydogg,

I just joined the thread…so, I have a bit of reading to catch up on - but, I did want to tell you that yours is an excellent post!

God bless

There is still a sabbath of sorts, but it is on Sunday the first day of the week not Saturnday the seventh…

1Cor 16
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.

Paul here is discussing a gathering for Jerusalem form the Churches in Galatia and in Macedonia. In other words this is a Church gathering and the day Paul instructs the gathering to be taken is on the first day.

So why the change?

Christ was raised on Sunday thus the day became known as the “Lord’s Day,” and we have Biblical proof positive that this practice was extant at the writing of the Apostles…

Revelation 1
9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches…

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Concerning the ceremeonial laws about the Sabbath I think you have to remember that Christ said the sabbath is for men not the men for sabbath, in other words the sabbath is a time given us by God when we can come to worship Him in rest in preparation for the rest in Paradise with God forever. It is a time for us to rest and worship and glorify God. Thus the laws against work were intended to prevent men from using the sabbath as any other day when it was meant for rest and worship. But never to become a burden to men to prevent them from doing anything at all.

That is why the Church recognizes that works of charity and necessity, such as medical, legal, law enforcement, etc are perfectly acceptable on Sunday even though that is work. As also is caring for a sick person in the family and other needful works of charity. If these sort of works are being done it is not a sin to miss Mass, but if a man chooses to miss Mass so he may watch football or mow the lawn or golf or fish that is a sin because it denigrates God’s Law and robs the day of its purpose, namely to be a time of repose when we will all come and worship our God.

So the old laws about the seventh day are set aside in favor of the Lord’s day.

The Lord’s day is to be observed but is not a tyranny.

The Pharisaic understanding of the Sabbath Law was never in effect because it was never a valid understanding of the Law, and thus it is no law at all which needed to be set aside.

God Bless

 

[FSGRY]

lolhttp://www.50centloseweight.com

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Po18guy,

Great insights!

But, what really caught my eye is that I had never seen Jack Chick used as a positive example for anything! Now, that is creative!!

Have a blessed week

First of all, cutting and pasting unreliable information from anti-Catholic SDA websites is against forum rules. It is also poor scholarship. Secondly, how can you make such nonsensical claims about your brother protestants? Are you calling them liars? Heretics? Hypnotized by the Pope? What?

Next, please read the ten commandments and tell us which day of the week, by name, that the Sabbath is.

After that, tell us if Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, or not.

Then, tell us if Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic covenant or not.

Let us know if Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath.

Tell us, from the bible alone, on which day the Holy Spirit gave birth to the Church.

Once done with that, have a go at explaining why the Apostles gathered on Sunday. Yes, Paul, too.

Illuminate us on why Paul’s Church met to take up the collection on Sunday, but the SDA do not.

Give us the date on which the evil Catholic Church instituted the SDA claim of the man-made tradition of Sunday worship.

Explain why Jack Chick, who is even more fervently anti-Catholic than the SDA, still worships on Sunday.

We can go on from there.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul Bates,

This is an interesting presentation. I do have a couple of questions…

THe Bible is God’s direct word to us. While there are many disagreements; most of these (though not all) were/are minor. God’s Word is the most important source of information. It is in the Bible, that the direct accounts of Christ’s ministry are recorded.

The Bible, as we know it today (even the abridged Protestant version) did not appear until about 400AD. What do you think the early Christians used to follow Christ? Recall, these first 400 years were filled with murderous persecutions by the Roman Empire and while there were selected writings and books - not all were the inspired Word of God (Gnostic gospels were also circulating). Here is a link you may find useful: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

It is in the Bible, that the direct accounts of Christ’s ministry are recorded. As Christians, we should follow Christ’s example. What did Christ do? He kept the Sabbath. He broke no rules. What he did do was-clarify.

You are correct! We should follow Christ’s example! The problem comes in whe the SDA isolate one area and claim this is a foundational belief - keeping the Sabbath. So, tell me, since Christ kept the entire Mosaic Law - it really is more involved than just the 10 Commandments ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Moses ) Why don’t the SDA advocate on keeping the other aspects instead of just worship on the Sabbath, since these too came from God

You are right, there were things that Jesus said and did that are not in the Bible. But the Bible contains what God wanted us to know. Any necessary theological truths must ultimate either come from the Bible; or, at the very least, not contradict anything in the New Testament.

As you know, Christ words were written down - but not all of them. St Paul and the other writers of the NT wrote many things down - but, he also taught by speaking and these items are not written down and form what we know as Sacred Tradition. Are you saying that if something was not written down in the Bible, it is not really that important? If so, can you show me where that is in the Bible? Here is a link that may help explain this: catholicbible101.com/sacredtradition.htm

If God is not even capable of preserving his Word for mankind-than would he be a god you would want to put your salvation in?

Do you think God has faithfully preserved His Word for mankind? I do…and, I thnk you do, too The issue, however, is not how well the written word has been preserved, but rather, how is it being interpreted. For example, in Matthew 16, Christ tells Peter whatever he binds or loses on earth is bound or losed in heaven - and then Christ gives Peter the Keys (note: there were not eleven duplicate sets of Keys handed out to the others). So, here we have the early followers of Christ (and this means the early Catholics) under the authority of Peter and the other apostles, who are under guidance of the Holy Spirit Christ promised to the Church - changing the day of worship to Sunday - in honor of Christ rising from the dead on that day. Are you saying Peter did not have the authority to make this change?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pablope,

Great post!

I think the absence of a sense of history is the real problem - and really the SDA can only trace itself back to E.G. White (1827-1915) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_White. Prior to her, James Bates and Joseph White, SDAs simply did not exist. So, efforts to trace the origins of the 19th Century SDA to the 1st Century are not logical.

Just because I like to read the works of Jules Verne (1828-1905 - a contemporary of Ellen White) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne does not mean I can claim to have my beginning in the 19th Century when I was born in the 20Century.

These are really not matters of faith as such - they are really matters of historical fact. Ignoring historical fact because it does not support one’s view is simply not appropriate - and runs the risk of misleading those who do not go back and search history for the truth.

God bless

You should read more Church history. The Roman persecition, that lasted till AD 325. Christians were underground, being hunted…plus the fact, there was no printing press…very few could read or write…paper was expensive, copying was by hand…no roads, no mail, no internet…and bandits were waiting to pounce on travelers.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul Bates,

Long cut and paste jobs are not in keeping with forum rules … but did you notice you omitted #: 2, & 3!! Just curious - what was deleted?

God bless

Consider the following:

1. God rested on the Seventh Day after creating earth-Genesis 2:1-3. At this point some would argue that the Sabbath was not kept in the garden of Eden. To be fair, no where does the Bible specifically say that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and Eve. However, the purpose of the Sabbath was for man to rest-Mark 2:27. The Sabbath was made for us and not us for the Sabbath. So the idea that God (who doesn’t need rest in the first place) would rest and not extend that to Adam and Eve is highly unlikely. I would say that there is much less extrapolating here than in the arguement that the Sabbath was turned to sunday and that sunday is the Lord’s Day.
2. We know that the Sabbath was between God and Israel for it’s generations. I want to say this is in Exodus 31; but I don’t have a Bible in front of me so I could be off on this one. At this point, many would argue that this was for the Jews and the Old Covenant. But in Galatians 3:29 says that those who accept Christ are of Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promise. We are grafted into spiritual Israel.
3. Isaiah 58 calls the Sabbath the Lord’s Day or Day of the Lord. Further, in Isaiah 58, Gentiles are invited to come and rest in God’s Sabbath.
4. Isaiah 66-again, Sabbath will be forever. All in heaven will observe it. We will bow down before God in heaven on his Holy Day. This is where things get interesting. The vast majority of sincere, born again believers in Christ today keep sunday as the Sabbath-or at least profess to. The greater part of God’s children and Church (Church being defined as all who accept Christ as their savior) keep the sunday Sabbath. Are they not saved? Of course not! Salvation does not come through the Sabbath-regardless of what day you observe it, salvation is a gift from Christ that we do not deserve and cannot obtain by our own merit. Thus, God’s people are spread out everywhere. We SDA’s are only a tiny sliver go those who are true Christians! But, the Bible is clear that in heaven we wil all observe the Seventh Day Sabbath-it will be interesting to see how people who have believed in sunday their whole lives will react when God tells them that they are to keep Saturday in heaven. Please notice that I said that the Sabbath is not what determines your salvation.
5. In the New Testament we have proof texts as well. What day did the early Christians keep? Well, lets to go the dramatic conversion of Saul (Paul) who was at that time the most anti-Christian zealot of the Pharisees. We know that Paul (in his earlier days), held the coats of those who stonded the first Martyr for Christ-Stephen. It is almost as if Saul (Paul) did not like Christians very much? Anyway, he (Paul/Saul) in Acts 9 decided on a particularly ambitious enterprise. He decided to get letters from the Synogagues in Damascus so that if he found any therein who belonged to “The Way” (Christians), he might take them prisoners to Jerusalem. Here we know a few things, A. There were Christians worshipping in the Synogagues-like the Jews-yet they are called Christians (The Way), two, Saul wanted to root them out and take them back to Jerusalem as prisoners. Synogagues always hold their worship services and Sabbaths on Saturday. At this point, the early Church was perfectly content to worship on the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath-the way Christ did. Of course, preaching went on seven days a week, but only one day was the Sabbath. You will get no arguement from me that there was not preaching on sunday. I agree. Pentacost occured on sunday, while Paul was having his good-bye meel on sunday he was preaching and even did a miracle-bringing a dead man back to life? Christ comforted the disciples on sunday as well as rose from the dead. As wonderful as those things are, sunday is still not the Sabbath.
6. Throughout Acts, Paul and others preach on the Sabbath to Jews, Jewish Christians, and God-fearers (Gentile Converts to Judaism and probably also Christianity). In the Gospel of Luke, we see the term Sabbath used frequently as well. It is interesting to look at the Gospel of Luke. As was mentioned before, as far as we can tell, Luke was the only real Gentile to write a book of the Bible. He was a Greek Physician if memory serves me right. While some may count Timothy as a Gentile; his mother was Jewish so even though he was raised Greek (he was not circumscized until an adult), he would still techinically be Jewish. Why does this matter? If anyone had reason to proclaim sunday as the Lord’s Day-it would have surely been one of these two men! While they may not have hated Saturday, they grew up without any cultural attachment to it. Yet they are silent on this issue.
7. By contrast, look at when the Bible talks of sunday-Acts 20:7, I Corinthians 16:2 (collections of these particular funds which were a benevolence offering were done privately as far as we can tell and not corporately like usual), John 20:19, Revelation 1:10 (incidently again, the Bible declares the true Lord’s Day as Saturday-see Isaiah 58 and Mark 2:27, Isaiah 58:13).
8. Another interesting fact is that shortly after the completion of the New Testament, there occurred the Bar Kokhba Revolt that culminated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 135 A.D. by Emperor Hadrian

This is why I believe what I do.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fab82,

From the sounds of your post, your ex is confused about a lot of things involving more than just religion. Besides praying for him, there is not a lot you can do until he actually comes to grips with his relationship with God. This fixation on the Sabbath you have identified in this post sounds like the view of the Pharisees.

There really does not sound like an easy answer - this is complicated because he does not sound well grounded in the Catholic Faith - and he is not well grounded in the SDAs - so, I would guess there is a lot of confusion going on.

Stay safe.

I am dealing with my now ex-boyfriend who is SDA about his Catholic beliefs. It is very draining talking to him. One minute he doesn’t believe in his church teaching the next minute he do. I have answered all of his questions from calling the priest father to the Whore of Babylon to the Antichrist. No matter what I show him he still do not accept anything I prove using the Bible. He knows NOTHING AT ALL about early church fathers so, when I mention them they holds no merit with him. He believes that the King James Bible was the first bible EVER created and that Catholics made our own bible (that’s just sad). When I brought up the SDA Clear Word Bible he wouldn’t talk about it. When I try to explain church history and bible history with him, it all goes over his head. It all comes down to Sabbath with SDA. And according to my ex even his salvation depends on keeping Sabbath. He talked about nothing else but the Sabbath after I proved him wrong on so many other issues (here is the kicker, he doesn’t even go to church). I’ve come to see I can only pray for him and others like him.

I know my post is off topic but reading the last few pages made we want to post anyway.

 

[Fab82]

Hi, Fab82,

From the sounds of your post, your ex is confused about a lot of things involving more than just religion. Besides praying for him, there is not a lot you can do until he actually comes to grips with his relationship with God. This fixation on the Sabbath you have identified in this post sounds like the view of the Pharisees.

There really does not sound like an easy answer - this is complicated because he does not sound well grounded in the Catholic Faith - and he is not well grounded in the SDAs - so, I would guess there is a lot of confusion going on.

Stay safe.

I am unsure how grounded he is in the SDA church. When I met him he would not say anything about his religion. He always seemed opened to the Catholic Church and showed no real offensive to it. Since he brought up marrying me, he has been back and forward about his beliefs. One day he tells me he is confused about his religion then the day he is saying how wrong the Catholic church is. What is really confusing is when he says we don’t read the bible. He has been to my church at least a dozen times and has read our missalette and even pulled out his bible app to make sure it was true scriptures. When I asked him what he thought, he told me he really like my church and the priest and the missalette is scriptures. So, the only reason I can think that he will now lie about Catholics not reading the bible, is so that he will not have to admit that his church has lied to him about Catholics.

I do believe his friends and family is having a big influence on his decision. All the people in his life is SDA. He told me that his friends told him they are scared for his salvation if he marries me or anyone outside of the religion. I know he is confused but my patience is running out with him.

 

[po18guy]

I am unsure how grounded he is in the SDA church. When I met him he would not say anything about his religion. He always seemed opened to the Catholic Church and showed no real offensive to it. Since he brought up marrying me, he has been back and forward about his beliefs. One day he tells me he is confused about his religion then the day he is saying how wrong the Catholic church is. What is really confusing is when he says we don’t read the bible. He has been to my church at least a dozen times and has read our missalette and even pulled out his bible app to make sure it was true scriptures. When I asked him what he thought, he told me he really like my church and the priest and the missalette is scriptures. So, the only reason I can think that he will now lie about Catholics not reading the bible, is so that he will not have to admit that his church has lied to him about Catholics.

I do believe his friends and family is having a big influence on his decision. All the people in his life is SDA. He told me that his friends told him they are scared for his salvation if he marries me or anyone outside of the religion. I know he is confused but my patience is running out with him.

The SDA do not share too much with the JWs, but they do share some things. There is almost shunning that will happen if you convert away - especially to the Catholic Church. Their hatred of the Catholic Church (while remaining mostly neutral about the nearly identical Eastern Orthodox ) is part of their DNA. Give him a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and let him read up. He may never convert, but he will know why we believe as we believe. Just a thought.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Po18guy,

And, that is a good thought, too!

Actually, in my opinion, this guy would have a difficult time of breaking away because he continues to go back and forth. Giving up one relaitves for marriage is not something that most people are willing to do. Add to this their expressed fear for his salvation - and I think he is confronting some major issues.

God bless

The SDA do not share too much with the JWs, but they do share some things. There is almost shunning that will happen if you convert away - especially to the Catholic Church. Their hatred of the Catholic Church (while remaining mostly neutral about the nearly identical Eastern Orthodox ) is part of their DNA. Give him a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and let him read up. He may never convert, but he will know why we believe as we believe. Just a thought.

 

[Fab82]

Thanks to the both of you. I will see if he is interested in reading Catholicism for Dummies. I have been sending him info and he told me he read them. Honestly, I do not think he has read any of them. I will continue to pray that he finds his way.

 

[Loveolivia]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[po18guy]

Thanks to the both of you. I will see if he is interested in reading Catholicism for Dummies. I have been sending him info and he told me he read them. Honestly, I do not think he has read any of them. I will continue to pray that he finds his way.

And, in prayer you will find your solution. He can resist all of the reasoning, logic, and “proof” that you can provide, but he will have a much harder time resisting the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[VeiledCatholic]

Give him a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and let him read up. He may never convert, but he will know why we believe as we believe. Just a thought.

Currently reading this book. Re-learning stuff I already knew and learning stuff which I thought I knew but was totally wrong about, and learning stuff I never knew growing up Catholic way back in the day. Every Protestant / Bible believing Christian should obtain a copy of this book so all their arguments can be refuted once they ready and study on what Catholics really believe versus what they read on some website or Jack Chick tract.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, VeiledCatholic,

This is just a general ‘heads-up’ and not meant as a criticism of any book or author. I have not read this book … in fact, I have not even seen it - but, does, ‘Catholics for Dummies’, have an Imprimatur or some other official designation that there is nothing in the book contrary to Faith or Morals fisheaters.com/imprimatur.html

I mention this because the Vatican has taken a serious look at some works (many of them published by nuns - but not all) that have been vague, ambiguous or in error in addressing the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If it does have such an official designation, great. If not, just be aware that there just may be a problem with an item or two that the author explains.

God bless

Currently reading this book. Re-learning stuff I already knew and learning stuff which I thought I knew but was totally wrong about, and learning stuff I never knew growing up Catholic way back in the day. Every Protestant / Bible believing Christian should obtain a copy of this book so all their arguments can be refuted once they ready and study on what Catholics really believe versus what they read on some website or Jack Chick tract.

 

[pablope]

Hi, VeiledCatholic,

This is just a general ‘heads-up’ and not meant as a criticism of any book or author. I have not read this book … in fact, I have not even seen it - but, does, ‘Catholics for Dummies’, have an Imprimatur or some other official designation that there is nothing in the book contrary to Faith or Morals fisheaters.com/imprimatur.html

I mention this because the Vatican has taken a serious look at some works (many of them published by nuns - but not all) that have been vague, ambiguous or in error in addressing the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If it does have such an official designation, great. If not, just be aware that there just may be a problem with an item or two that the author explains.

God bless

Hi, Tom…it was written by two catholic priests…

: Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD