Seventh-day Sabbath Questions And Answers

[RNRobert]

Do I know that God gave his church the right to cheat the week this calendar adjustment was made? What if God’s calendar was not adjusted? Then we are all hosed.

I believe the reason that Pope Gregory changed the calendar was that the old Julian calendar was growing increasingly inaccurate (I believe it was off by about two weeks). BTW, the Julian calendar was created by Roman Emperor Julius Caesar- just what were Christians doing following a pagan calendar in the first place, instead of say, the Hebrew calendar?
Calendars are human constructs and flawed to varying degrees- even the Hebrew calendar has to add a month every couple of years or so to keep things straight.

I found this link concerning the Jewish reckoning of the Sabbath that I found interesting:

itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/10/what-to-say-about-sabbath-to.html

 

[w_stewart]

As I demonstrated above; the Bible does tell us exactly which day is which. It tells us when preparation day is, which we know to be Friday; the day Jesus died, was the day after; the Bible called it “the Sabbath;” and the third day, the day of the resurrection, the Bible calls “the first day.” (which people every where know to be Sunday. Sunday is the first day; so Saturday must be the seventh; and “preparation day” must be the sixth, or Friday. (see Luke 23 & 24)

Your own Church does teach that the Sabbath is the seventh-day, Saturday; so how baseless do you say all that is? It is pointless to argue about the Sabbath not being on the seventh-day for this is something both sides have agreed upon for centuries. You might want to check out the ask an apologist section and other references here.

When the Pentateuch was written, the days at that time had no names yet. When God ordered his people to rest on the seventh day, he did not specify what name that particular day was. The essence of God’s order was that in SIX days, man could work BUT on the next day, the SEVENTH, he was to rest as God commanded. Whether this seventh day was actually Saturday, I say that is baseless. During that time, the name Saturday was inexistent yet. Further, the name of the day was not the essence of the commandment. Probably, it was only the Jews who chose the Saturday as their seventh day Sabbath.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This post illustrates why it is wide to read a thread before actually commenting on it.

It does seem to me that if God prescribed the seventh day (working on that assumption for now) I would have to know what the first day is. Here we have a number of problems:

(1) Whose first day.

My calendar says the first day of the week is Sunday. My company says the first day of a work week is Saturday. Psycologically the first day of the week seems to me (working a normal 5 day week) to be Monday. However this is just a cultural convention. What is to prevent our culture from suddenly deciding the first day of the week is Tuesday. The only reason I can think of is there is no need to do this. However, do I know that every culture on the face of the planet has a first day of Sunday.

In other words I do not know whether everybody has a common first day of the week. Furthermore, I have no idea what the first day of the week may be in the past. So the question in my mind is whose first day?

(2) Calendar changes

But I do know that the first day of the week is not the same first day of the week in the time of Christ. The calendar was adjusted I think by 10 or 11 days in the 1700s or so due to various inaccuracies. Does this mean that the first day is now Wednesday or Thursday? Do I know that God gave his church the right to cheat the week this calendar adjustment was made? What if God’s calendar was not adjusted? Then we are all hosed.

The above post also made excellent comments about the time zone problem and the above the arctic circle problem.

The net here is that I begin with the assumption that it is very important that I observe the sabbath as the seventh day of the week, I have a big problem. I don’t know what God’s first day of the week is with absolute certainty, let alone what God’s seventh day is. If our eternal salvation rests on the dependency that we must know with absolute certainty what God’s first day of the week is, then I am afraid we all are in big trouble.

1 What matters is what God says is the seventh day. Gen.2:3 tells us that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day. Ex. 20:8-11 tells us that day is the sabbath and Luke 23:52-24:1 shows us that day is Saturday.

2 “When the Gregorian calendar was introduced, the week cycle was continued unbroken. So Thursday, 4 October 1582 was followed by Friday 15 October.” I got the above quote from Wikepedia free encyclopedia. The seven day sequence of days has never been compromised.
In Christ Richard

 

[mercygate]

If Saturday worship causes such a ruckus in the 21st century, you would think that there would be a record of a similar issue in the early years of the Church. Anybody have references from the ECFs? Clearly, Christians worshiped on “the first day” as evidenced in the New Testament.

Wasn’t this whole question settled 2000 years ago?

Good grief. One great thing about knowing history is that you don’t have to go off and re-invent the wheel every time some inspired crackpot goes off on a tangent because of his (or her) personal interpretation of Scripture.

 

[SDA2RC]

Thankyou! Of course, “the Lord’s Day” is the seventh-day Sabbath, so I presume you will be supportive of what I am about to say?!

Unfortunately, this is simply another man made belief of Adventists. The term “Lord’s Day” has been shown in other writings of the same time period to refer only to Sunday. There is not one single reference of the term “Lord’s Day” ever referring to The Jewish Sabbath.

I

t’s almost a bit funny the way you keep trying to whip us “poor” Adventists with Scripture; for “The Book Of Jubilees” you quoted above is not “Scripture;”?!

LOL… um… I never said it was scripture… so I think your arguing against your self here.

What is funny is that you are 2000 years removed from the situation, and you claim to understand the Jewish law better than they do. The Book of Jubilee’s is simply a example of Jewish thought regarding whether or not the Sabbath was for gentiles. I know you dont like to be bothered with the facts, but the truth is that even the Jews, to whom the law was given by God, in both writing and orally, disagree with you.

and aside from the last scripture you quoted; none of the rest has the applications you say it does, to the seventh-day Sabbath** “of the Lord Thy God.”** The Bible never once calls it “The Jewish Sabbath;” it is always “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

Actually… its not always the “Sabbath of the Lord thy God”, just because both verse say “Lord” and talk about a day, doesnt mean you can say one equals the other… unfortunately this is exactly what Adventists do. Common sense tells us it was the Jewish Sabbath… and although I know you think you know Judaism better than the Jews, but they say it was their Sabbath too. There was never an expectation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

There are a lot of things called the “x of the Lord”. “Garden of the Lord” in Genesis, Ex 30 talks about the “offering of the Lord”, you dont still offer sacrifices do you? Same with Lev. 2 and the list could go on and on. The only way the phrase “Lord’s Day” is ever used in writings of that time is in direct reference to the first day of the week.

To say that it was only given to the Jews is to deny your own Catholic teachings which actually admits that the seventh day, (Saturday) is still the Sabbath

I haven’t denied anything… Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath… But I am not a Jew… I am a Catholic Christian. We worship on the Lord’s day to celebrate his eternal peace and resurrection.

Hmmm; I guess if all ten of those commandments are “Old Covenant” then that means adultery is included? No wonder both Protestant and Catholic Christians can’t leave their neighbour’s wives alone!

Unfortuntaly this is another example of the narrow minded “either or” thinking that Adventism has drilled into the heads of its membership. Either you believe the law as Adventists do, or you must not believe in any law at all. It is sad. Protestant101, other Christians besides Adventists are good people, and believe in laws too, they believe in the New Covenant laws though, not just the 10 Commandments. Some of the the New Covenant laws are the same, some are different, but there are still commands that we must obey. The Sabbath was never repeated as part of the New Covenant… which is why not ONE SINGLE PERSON after the resurrection of Christ, either in the Bible or outside of scripture, was EVER commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, or reprimanded for not doing it.

 

[SDA2RC]

Note–we are only told of the seventh day; we are not sure what that seventh day is. Can you glean from Genesis that the seventh day is Saturday? Not a chance. It is not recorded. There is no record even what day God started creation; for all we know, it could have been a Saturday, which would stand on tis head the belief then that God rested on a Saturday. But that aside, please show us where exactly is it stated the seventh day to be a Saturday.

Millardo,
I am having a hard time following you here. The Sabbath was the seventh-day, Christ’s resurrection was the first day. The Resurrection was on a Sunday, this is why we celebrate Easter on Sunday. The Sabbath therefore, was on Saturday. Even the Catechism states that the Sabbath is the day preceding the Lords Day.

In addition, the US Naval Observatory, Hundreds of languages, and the continutity of the Jewish tradition all support the idea that Satuday is the seventh-day of the week of scripture. There is no reason that I know of to assume that the Jews some how lost their day of rest between the Commandments and Christ. Why would you think there is a difference between what was called the Seventh-Day in Exodus, as opposed to what is called the Seventh-day in Mark, it seems to me that your arguing frome silence rather than any positive proof that the weekly cycle was somehow altered. Help me understand…

 

[SDA2RC]

If Saturday worship causes such a ruckus in the 21st century, you would think that there would be a record of a similar issue in the early years of the Church. Anybody have references from the ECFs? Clearly, Christians worshiped on “the first day” as evidenced in the New Testament.

Wasn’t this whole question settled 2000 years ago?

Good grief. One great thing about knowing history is that you don’t have to go off and re-invent the wheel every time some inspired crackpot goes off on a tangent because of his (or her) personal interpretation of Scripture.

Yes… when the Apostles declared that Christians did not have to be circumcised, that settled the question, for only circumcised Jews were bound to the Old Covenant.

 

[SDA2RC]

When the Pentateuch was written, the days at that time had no names yet. When God ordered his people to rest on the seventh day, he did not specify what name that particular day was. The essence of God’s order was that in SIX days, man could work BUT on the next day, the SEVENTH, he was to rest as God commanded. Whether this seventh day was actually Saturday, I say that is baseless. During that time, the name Saturday was inexistent yet. Further, the name of the day was not the essence of the commandment. Probably, it was only the Jews who chose the Saturday as their seventh day Sabbath.

Stewart,
God identified the Sabbath day in Exodus 16 by refusing to give the Israelites Manna on the Sabbath. This is how they knew what day was the 7th day. There is no evidence what so ever, that the Jews changed their day of worship after that point, or forgot how to count 7 days. The NT reinforces that the day we call Sunday is the first day, hence the day we call Saturday would be the 7th day, the Jewish Sabbath.

The Catechism supports this also.

 

[SDA2RC]

as I said, the Old covenant and the 10 commandments were first established and given to the Jews after Moses freed them
Deuteronomy 5:3 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

And it makes sense that Jesus was a Jew, if he was a gentile, his teachings would not have the same level of impact towards soceity.
He came to establish a new promise, a new beginning and a new covenant, with all this he has redefined the 10 commandments, for instance.

1 commandment: You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37)

“You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Mat 4:10). "

Murder : You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder’, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22).

Adultery : “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery’. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart”

Christ established a covenant that is Universal
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations

As for the Sabbath, Since Sunday is the event that a new beginning/creation has taken place, Sunday then has become possible to practice the 4th/3rd commandment Luke 24

Great post St. Violet, the verse you quoted at the beginning of your post is key to realizing that even the Jews did not believe that the Sabbath had been given to their “fathers”.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

If Saturday worship causes such a ruckus in the 21st century, you would think that there would be a record of a similar issue in the early years of the Church. Anybody have references from the ECFs? Clearly, Christians worshiped on “the first day” as evidenced in the New Testament.

Wasn’t this whole question settled 2000 years ago?

Good grief. One great thing about knowing history is that you don’t have to go off and re-invent the wheel every time some inspired crackpot goes off on a tangent because of his (or her) personal interpretation of Scripture.

The sabbath was kept by the faithful for four thousand years until the ECF crackpots tried to change the immutable word of God.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. I’ve got news for you God’s law has not been changed by Him. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And his law can’t be changed by man, he just doesn’t have the authority.

 

[mozart-250]

1 What matters is what God says is the seventh day. Gen.2:3 tells us that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day. Ex. 20:8-11 tells us that day is the sabbath and Luke 23:52-24:1 shows us that day is Saturday.

The problem is that God never defines what the first day is. Without a definition of the first day, the seventh day of course is undefined.

An undefined first and seventh day reduces to a sequence of every seven days where Sunday can be just as valid of a seventh day as Saturday or any other day of the week.

So I’ve decided my week begins on Monday and my seventh day is Sunday. Why not?

2 “When the Gregorian calendar was introduced, the week cycle was continued unbroken. So Thursday, 4 October 1582 was followed by Friday 15 October.” I got the above quote from Wikepedia free encyclopedia. The seven day sequence of days has never been compromised.
In Christ Richard

I would have to look it up, but I was specifically thinking of a calendar adjustment that occurred in the 1700s because of inaccuracies in measuring the year. I’m thinking it was an eleven day adjustment, but as I said I would have to look it up.

 

[SDA2RC]

The sabbath was kept by the faithful for four thousand years until the ECF crackpots tried to change the immutable word of God.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. I’ve got news for you God’s law has not been changed by Him. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And his law can’t be changed by man, he just doesn’t have the authority.

First… scripture only recounts 2000 years of Sabbath observance, the idea of 4000 is a Man Made Adventist belief, not supported by Scripture.

Second… Dan 7:25 has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Third… what in the world is ECF?

Take care

 

[SDA2RC]

The problem is that God never defines what the first day is. Without a definition of the first day, the seventh day of course is undefined.

An undefined first and seventh day reduces to a sequence of every seven days where Sunday can be just as valid of a seventh day as Saturday or any other day of the week.

So I’ve decided my week begins on Monday and my seventh day is Sunday. Why not?

I would have to look it up, but I was specifically thinking of a calendar adjustment that occurred in the 1700s because of inaccuracies in measuring the year. I’m thinking it was an eleven day adjustment, but as I said I would have to look it up.

In my study, Richard is correct… the calendar change did not affect the order of the Days of the week, just the numbering. However, the same cannot be said of the International date line. A problem Adventists cannot address… nor can they address Sabbath keeping in the Artic from scripture.

 

[Protestant101]

Millardo,
I am having a hard time following you here. The Sabbath was the seventh-day, Christ’s resurrection was the first day. The Resurrection was on a Sunday, this is why we celebrate Easter on Sunday. The Sabbath therefore, was on Saturday. Even the Catechism states that the Sabbath is the day preceding the Lords Day.

In addition, the US Naval Observatory, Hundreds of languages, and the continutity of the Jewish tradition all support the idea that Satuday is the seventh-day of the week of scripture. There is no reason that I know of to assume that the Jews some how lost their day of rest between the Commandments and Christ. Why would you think there is a difference between what was called the Seventh-Day in Exodus, as opposed to what is called the Seventh-day in Mark, it seems to me that your arguing frome silence rather than any positive proof that the weekly cycle was somehow altered. Help me understand…

Hey Brandon! I just knew that we could find some agreement; although I didn’t know it would be on this topic! In fact, I recognize some of what you are saying from some of the older Adventist publications.

I am sure our discussions will continue.

 

[Protestant101]

However, the same cannot be said of the International date line. A problem Adventists cannot address… nor can they address Sabbath keeping in the Artic from scripture.

I think this is straining at knats. Why would it be such a problem to “keep” Sabbath or Sunday in the Artic? Do people suddenly become stupid and not know what day it is just because they live in such places?

Methinks you know full well that Adventists have addressed this; but you just don’t like the answers.

 

[SDA2RC]

Hey Brandon! I just knew that we could find some agreement; although I didn’t know it would be on this topic! In fact, I recognize some of what you are saying from some of the older Adventist publications.

I am sure our discussions will continue.

ROTFL… dont get your hopes up…

I may agree with you on one point, but your still wrong on all the others… LOL

 

[mozart-250]

In my study, Richard is correct… the calendar change did not affect the order of the Days of the week, just the numbering. However, the same cannot be said of the International date line. A problem Adventists cannot address… nor can they address Sabbath keeping in the Artic from scripture.

You might be right on this, I would have to look it up. But you are also correct that the date line and the Arctic cause problems.

Still the point remains that God never defines what the first day is in Scripture. Without such definition, nobody can say with infallible certainty what the seventh day really is.

Since nobody really knows what day of the week the first and the seventh day are, the definition reduces to an arbitrary seven day cycle.

 

[Milliardo]

Millardo,
I am having a hard time following you here. The Sabbath was the seventh-day, Christ’s resurrection was the first day. The Resurrection was on a Sunday, this is why we celebrate Easter on Sunday. The Sabbath therefore, was on Saturday. Even the Catechism states that the Sabbath is the day preceding the Lords Day.

My point is simple: most Christians don’t recognize the Saturday Sabbath, though we do recognize the observance of the Sabbath. The insistence of the SDA that it should be Saturday, period, is evidently flawed by their own admission that they are not sure what exactly the day God began and ended creation; that in itself already destroys any notion that God prescribed a specific day for the Sabbath. Exodus also never prescribed any day for it. We are left only data from Luke and Acts that makes inference when the Sabbath is observed–but that’s a long way from Exodus, and by then it was an established tradition. So the SDA is left with much explaining where they got the notion that Saturday was the God-given day prescribed for its observance. As well, no SDA can say why they observe the Saturday Sabbath but do not even observe all of the Mosaic Law. If the SDA is true to itself, then it should also uphold the Levitical priesthood and the vestments used, the blood offerings and animal sacrifices for the atonement of sins, the celebration of the Jewish feasts and the exact way Jesus celebrated them, the penalties prescribed by the Mosaic Law for sins done, etc. If they do not observe these, then I have to ask it again: what right does the SDA have in demanding other Christians to observe the Saturday Sabbath when they themselves do not even observe the whole of the Mosaic Law, as they themselves are fond of saying?

There is no reason that I know of to assume that the Jews some how lost their day of rest between the Commandments and Christ. Why would you think there is a difference between what was called the Seventh-Day in Exodus, as opposed to what is called the Seventh-day in Mark, it seems to me that your arguing from silence rather than any positive proof that the weekly cycle was somehow altered. Help me understand…

No, my point is not about the Jews: follow again my line of reasoning to see what I am driving at–my point is that there is no mention of what day the Lord made His rest, nor any mention of what day Exodus prescribed the Sabbath should be observed. In short, we see a progression of Jewish tradition here, which fixed the day to a Saturday, but was not a God-given initiative. By the time of Luke and Acts, we already see a tradition established. I am interested to know how the SDA sees this progression of tradition for a Saturday Sabbath, and as well show that this tradition, from a Catholic perspective, can be changed without fully abrogating the Law. In other words, if it can be demonstrated that this the Saturday Sabbath is a Jewish tradition (again, as opposed to God merely asking to observe the Sabbath), then there is much argument on the side of historic Christianity to actually move this observance from Saturday to Sunday without violating the Law, and thus dent the SDA charge that early Christianity violated it. As we see, the SDA cannot even defend this point, nor say why they follow the Saturday Sabbath in the first place but ignore much of the Mosaic Law themselves.

 

[SDA2RC]

I think this is straining at knats. Why would it be such a problem to “keep” Sabbath or Sunday in the Artic? Do people suddenly become stupid and not know what day it is just because they live in such places?

Methinks you know full well that Adventists have addressed this; but you just don’t like the answers.

Protestant,
Maybe your not very familiar with the Sabbath keeping issues in the artic. Think about it for a minute. The sun is not on 24 hour cycles in the Artic, therefore the Sabbath may last weeks or months. Explain to me how to keep the Sabbath from Sundown to Sundown when they may be 6 weeks apart. Not to mention that this would make the 7th day of the week on days other than Saturday.

In the artic, the Sabbath may end on a Tuesday and start again on a Monday. There is no sundown to sundown daily and weekly cycle like we have in the lower parts of the world.

The Adventist church has made up various ways to get around this… none of which has any Biblical support, showing once again that Adventists betray their own “principles”, and that the Sabbath was not meant to be kept outside of the middle east.

The international date line is a MAN MADE day… therefore, two people are celebrating the Sabbath on two different days although they may be only 5 miles apart. Explain to my the Adventist answer for this…

You say that Adventists have answered this… please show me the official Adventist response on this.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant,
Maybe your not very familiar with the Sabbath keeping issues in the artic. Think about it for a minute. The sun is not on 24 hour cycles in the Artic, therefore the Sabbath may last weeks or months. Explain to me how to keep the Sabbath from Sundown to Sundown when they may be 6 weeks apart. Not to mention that this would make the 7th day of the week on days other than Saturday.

Actually; I think you are the one who is wrong on all such issues as you are here addressing.

Now; I know that you say how you have been an Adventist and studied all this, but to me, anyone who talks as you do about the Sabbath, and all the supposed confusion about it in the Artic; portrays just how little you ever understood it - even while you were an Adventist. Many people keep Saturday; they don’t know what it is to keep “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

You would make a good “Jew” because of the way you talk about all these supposed problems with Sabbath-keeping in the Artic; or at the ID. Only a legalistic understanding of the Sabbath would ever concoct such “difficulties.” The poor Jews of Biblical times had a list almost as long as your’s! Did you copy some of their’s?

Any “difficulties” with the Sabbath in the Artic, would also happen with Sunday. But only to a legalistic understanding of Sunday observance.