Seventh-day Sabbath Questions And Answers

[SDA2RC]

My last question to you was my answer. And please, back up your reply with Scripture statements. When you do this; I will then be able to supply more information that you have requested. I need your answer to that last question in order to explain to everyone my point here.

I know it probably makes you feel better to believe that you have me “cornered” and that I am “avoiding” something here; but it is my honest belief, that as you answer my question about how you would observe Sunday in the Artic, that my point would be much better made than my writing many pages in reply. I also believe that this question I have asked, is indeed the answer you don’t like.

Protestant,
It is sad that you need my answer in order to fuel yours. If your position is Biblically based as you claim it is your answer should not rely on me, it should stand or fall on its own merit. For the third time, please answer the questions that I have asked. Your playing games rather than dialoging.

You said the questions have been answered many times by Adventists.
You said that there is no problem and that I would only see a problem with Sabbath keeping in the Artic if I was Legalistic.
You said that I just didnt like the answers (although I have no idea what your talking about).

It seems that after maknig so many claims, especially about me, that you would have the integrity to simply explain your assertions and answer the questions. I will restate them here:

So… you tell me… does that Sabbath have to be kept according to the Bible or not? If we can ignore the Bible Sabbath reckoning… why are we having this conversation and why have you been defending the Biblical Jewish Sabbath. If we can’t ignore the Bible Sabbath, then tell us in your non-legalistic understanding, which I apparently lack, how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic and support it by scriptural statemetns on the topic.

Although… your continual attempt to avoid answering, does demonstrate the weakness of the Adventist position. So maybe it is a good thing. I mean if your only answer is “you answer first”, then you can’t be very confident in your position either. Which is ok… just say so, then we can move on.

 

[SDA2RC]

Is there evidence that the seventh day God meant in giving the commandment was Saturday?

My point is that the essence of the commandment was not the name of the day. God told the Israelites that they could work in six days but on the next, obviously, the seventh day, they MUST rest. The essence of this commandment was that, in six days, (regardless of the names of these days,) they were permitted to work and the next day, the seventh, (again, regardless of the name of that day) they MUST not work.

It is not important whatever the name of the seventh day when the people of God was ordered to rest.

W_stewart,
The Ancient Jews did not have names for any of the days of the week other than the Sabbath. They were simply the 1st day of the week, the 2nd day. etc. This is the same as our names of Monday and Tuesday. The first day always followed the 7th day just as Sunday always Follows Saturday for us. The numbers WERE the name of the days. Just like everyone now knows what day Sunday is… everyone then knew what day the 4th day was… that was the name of the day.

 

[SDA2RC]

But it has never been “shown” in the Bible. Only in “other writings.” What are these “other writings” that “show” this point so well?

Protestant,
In order to undersand the Bible one must necessarily look at the other writings of the same time period to understand phrases, and customs of the local period, unfortunately, Adventists as a group usually refuse a serious study of anyone other than EGW and the Bible… and they interpret the Bible through EGW. This is evidenced in the Adventist Bible Commentaries, which make an attemtp to explain the Bible and are heavily interlaced with EGW (having her own volume) in doing this.

The following quotes show how the term Lord’s Day was being used by other Christians who had been taught by the Apostles in the same time period as Revelation was written. The term is never used in Christian writings of any time period to refer to the Jewish Sabbath.

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6-8).
90 AD Didache : But every Lord’s day, do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord… [Matt. 5:23-24] (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, , Chap. 14:1, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, page 381)
" …every Lord’s day, hold your solemn assemblies, and rejoice: for he will be guilty of sin who fasts on the Lord’s day, being the day of the resurrection… (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 449)
"And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection…? (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 423)
"On the day of the resurrection of the Lord, that is, the Lord’s day, assemble yourselves together, without fail, giving thanks to God, and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ, and has delivered you from ignorance, error, and bondage, that your sacrifice may be unspotted, and acceptable to God, who has said concerning His universal Church: "In every place shall incense and a pure sacrifice be offered unto me; for I am a great King, saith the Lord Almighty, and my name is wonderful among the heathen, [Malachi 1:11, 14] (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 471)
107AD IGNATIUS: Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace… If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death (which some deny), through which mystery we received faith, and on account of which we suffer in order that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher, how shall we be able to live apart from him for whom even the prophets were looking as their teacher since they were his disciples in the spirit**?.. let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week**. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. for where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism… These things I address to you, my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ… (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)
catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

 

[SDA2RC]

The ministry of The Spirit is what the seventh-day Bible Sabbath is all about.

Actually Protestant101, the Bible calls the law that was given to Moses on tablets of stone the Ministry of Death, not the ministry of the Spirit. The ministry of the Spirit can be seen in Pentecost, in the conversion of souls, in the Sacraments of the Church, but not in a legalistic work of the law, like keeping the Sabbath.

God would not abolish such a thing…

And yet he did… The law was a tutor to lead us to Christ. Now that we have Christ we are no longer under that Law, we are under a New Covenant, a different set of operating instructions if you will. Some of the rules are the same, some are different (such as the sabbath and sacrifices and much more).

It’s amazing how Christians accuse God of making something wrong, as in the Old Covenant to which they like to relegate doctrines which they do not like. …

Protestant, no one has accused God of making it wrong, we simlpy to not try yo make it out to be somethign that it is not. Scripture said it was a TUTOR to lead us to Christ, UNTIL he came. HE has come now… there is no need for a tutor any longer. It was not made wrong, it was made perfect and right, and it served its purpose. Unfortunately, Adventism does not want to let go of the Tutor in order to grasp onto Christ and His body, our Church.

 

[SDA2RC]

The Sabbath is actually one of the things God made at creation; and that is not “Old Covenant” anyways. .

I know we have discussed this before, but I will repeat that creation mentions no Sabbath. The idea that the Sabbath was instituted at creation is not Biblical and is a man made belief. The Sabbath was indeed part of the Old Covenant, as part of the Law.
(Exo 34:28 NASB) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

(Deu 9:11 NASB) "And it came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.
(1 Ki 8:21 NASB) “And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt.”
Notice this says the covenant is INSIDE the ark, we know the Ten Commandments were in the ark.
(Heb 9:4 NASB) having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant.
The Bible plainly states that the covenant IS the Ten Commandments! So, what does the bible say happened to the covenant?
(2 Cor 3:7 NASB) But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones**, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,**
(2 Cor 3:8 NASB) how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
Did you catch that? The ministration of death is in the letters engraved in stone! This is the Ten Commandments! Who wants to follow the ministration of death? Here the 10 Commandment law, the ministry of death… is compared and contrasted to the the Ministry of the Spirit. They are different, not the same.
(Eph 2:14 NASB) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
(Eph 2:15 NASB) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
(Heb 8:6 NASB) But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
(Heb 8:7 NASB) For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
(Heb 8:13 NASB) **When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. **But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 8:13 said that the first covenant Christ made obsolete!!! The Bible says the covenant was the Ten Commandments. The fact is that in no place in scripture is the command to keep the Sabbath given to Christians (i.e. those who were members of the Church after the resurrection of Christ).

 

[SDA2RC]

One Final passage I would like you to pay particular attention. This passage was important to my realizing the truth about the law. We already know that the commandments were the covenant; this is according to clear scriptural statements. This next passage even goes further in tying the covenants to Sinai, where the ten commandments were received, then it goes on to say that if you keep the law then YOU are a slave, and then goes on to contrasts the “slaves” with followers of Christ who are free… children of the NEW Covenant, not the Old Covenant of the Ten Commandments.
(Gal 4:21 NASB**) Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?**
(Gal 4:22 NASB) For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
(Gal 4:23 NASB) But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
(Gal 4:24 NASB) This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
(Gal 4:25 NASB) Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
(Gal 4:26 NASB) But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
(Gal 4:27 NASB) For it is written, “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
(Gal 4:28 NASB) And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
(Gal 4:29 NASB) But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
(Gal 4:30 NASB) But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
(Gal 4:31 NASB**) So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.**
This passage is very clear; there is no way around the biblical evidence for the abolishing of the ten commandment covenant by Christ and the replacement of the Old Covenant law with the New Covenant Laws, which do not contain the Jewish Sabbath.

Because the Sabbath is a sign of God’s authority over believers today; He has every reason to want us to hang onto it - not throw it away.

Protestant101, the Sabbath was a sign to Israel, there is nothing in scripture which says that the Sabbath is a sign of anything to Christians. Our Signs of Christ’s authority and presence with us are the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist and Holy Orders.

 

[w_stewart]

W_stewart,
The Ancient Jews did not have names for any of the days of the week other than the Sabbath. They were simply the 1st day of the week, the 2nd day. etc. This is the same as our names of Monday and Tuesday. The first day always followed the 7th day just as Sunday always Follows Saturday for us. The numbers WERE the name of the days. Just like everyone now knows what day Sunday is… everyone then knew what day the 4th day was… that was the name of the day.

This is basically my point. The days had no names when the 10 Commandments were given. The essence of the Sabbath commandment is not the name of the day as Adventists would want to appear. The essence is that on the six days (regardless of the names) they could work BUT the next day, the seventh (regardless of the name), they MUST not work.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant,
In order to undersand the Bible one must necessarily look at the other writings of the same time period to understand phrases, and customs of the local period, unfortunately, Adventists as a group usually refuse a serious study of anyone other than EGW and the Bible… and they interpret the Bible through EGW. This is evidenced in the Adventist Bible Commentaries, which make an attemtp to explain the Bible and are heavily interlaced with EGW (having her own volume) in doing this.

You have so many falsehoods posted here; including questioning my “integrity” (whatever that is to you); but lets just take something easy first; for this is something you so love to harass Adventists with.

Name one place where I have used Ellen White’s writings in discussing the Sabbath, and in proving my point about same; here on The Catholic Answers Forums. I believe the answer to this will provide members of the public with the reality of your malicious anti-Adventist sentiments.

God created the Sabbath; during creation week; He didn’t create it to just be thrown away later; but if I had to run around being so legalistic as you are about the exact minute in time when the sun set; I would go nuts. I think you have several strawmen together here; all holding hands comfortably. It seems clear that you cannot answer my question about how one would ever be able to “keep” Sunday in the Artic.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant,

Although… your continual attempt to avoid answering, does demonstrate the weakness of the Adventist position. So maybe it is a good thing. I mean if your only answer is “you answer first”, then you can’t be very confident in your position either. Which is ok… just say so, then we can move on.

You are trying to do too much mind reading on the internet my friend. I am not saying “answer me first” here. I am using one of the methods of Jesus to explain important points of Bible truth. Jesus, in the four gospels, asked just over 350 questions. Many of those questions were in response to questions asked of Him.

Let me quote something here from the Catechism first:

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure - the necessity of charity accepts just work.

Now to try and re-phrase my question.

**Your own official teachings don’t give you an option. It clearly states it as “THE OBLIGATION OF SUNDAY REST.”

How would you fulfill this obligation of Sunday rest in the Artic? If Saturday; the seventh-day is so mixed up as you say because of the sunset issue you have brought up here; how can Sunday not also be just as mixed up? How can you know when the right time is to fulfil the “Sunday obligation?”

You keep saying 'Adventist always;" or “Adventists never…” and then you fill in the blanks with one of your outrageous lies and falsehoods about us. But lets be honest here. You have just as many problems in the Artic with Sunday; as you say we do with the Sabbath!!

I suspect that you have always been very legalistic about the Sabbath - even as an Adventist. To talk about it as you do reflects this well. How could you dare to “limit the holy One of Israel” in the Artic or anywhere else, with something such as His Sabbath that He personally created during creation week for mankind’s blessing? You are making it into a curse!! Even your own publications don’t do this with the seventh-day Sabbath.

I remember one time I was on a hike with some Adventist friends. It was Sabbath; and getting close to sunset, and no one had a watch on them. When I told them that I never used a watch to “decide” when sabbath was over, or when it began; I heard several deep breaths of shock and amazement. It was kind of funny. I then explained that all I do is look out the window, and when the sun starts to set, it begins; or ends, as the case may be…Then some of them thought that “sunset” was after the sun went down; some thought it was “as soon as it started to go down;” why the list got so confusing one would never get to the end of it all in any civilized period of time at all! Then there is the horrific spectre of those who have better eyesite than others, maybe they see the sunset first, before certain others???

Brandon, I am surprised to see you promoting such legalistic views of the Sabbath!! Isn’t that why you left the Church in the first place?

To be sure; there is legalism on both sides with the Sabbath issue and questions. But it doesn’t take away from the truth.

It may be surprising to some people that in the actual ten commandments; when you look at the Sabbath commandment, there is no specific instruction given on the exact manner and time of Sabbath keeping. There are reasons for this. The Artic, the international date line; all such are some of those reasons. This indicates divine wisdom in formulating Sabbath principles which could be adapted to different cultures and geographical locations.

The fourth commandment regarding the seventh day Sabbath establishes for believers the principle of keeping the Sabbath holy by working six days and resting on the seventh day unto the Lord. The application of this principle is dependent upon what constitutes the end of the normal working day in any given geographical area of the world. We need to remember, in some areas like the Artic, “daytime” is recognized by the clock, not by the sun. As long as we indeed do “remember the Sabbath day; to keep it holy;” how can you question something that God never would?

Maybe now it’s time for you to explain how you would “keep Sunday” in the Artic?
**

 

[Joel1984]

This is my first post on this forum. I have been reading this thread about the Sabbath and can’t help but shake my head at the same old SDA proof texts. As a former SDA i am all too familar with these proof texts. I’d like to make a general reply to what I have read from Protestant101 and the other SDA’s.

First I’d like to point out the obvious to SDA2RC on why Protestant101 won’t answer him on the artic question…cause he can’t! lol. The very fact that Lev23:32 states that the Day of Atonement is “a sabbath” and should be kept from “evening to evening” (which SDA’s say is the correct way in keeping the sabbath) shows the absurdity of their postion. When in the winter months it can be weeks before they see any sun at the artic it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the sabbath as commanded by scripture.
For 11 years Ellen White and SDA’s kept the sabbath from 6pm friday to saturday. When someone pointed out the Lev23 text to them about keeping the sabbath from “evening to evening” Ellen White claimed to “be shown from the Lord” that they should now keep it from evening to evening instead of from 6pm to 6pm! Ellen White and SDA’s broke the sabbath for 11 years…and God didnt even both to tell her for 11 years lol.

I’ll now comment on a few of the common proof texts I’ve seen posted time and again on this thread.

*Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

We must ask our SDA friend a few questions at this point.

1. Where in this passage or anywhere in Genesis do we find Adam or Eve or anyone keeping the sabbath?
2. What would Adam and Eve rest from with their first full day with God? Man was made on the 6th day. The 7th was their first full day of fellowship with God in the perfect work of creation. What would the need be of keeping a 24 hr sabbath before the fall?

3)Wouldn’t the fact the phrase “evening and morning” is absent from the 7th day show that this “rest” in Genesis was to be an on going fellowship rest with God before the fall?

1. Since God gave Adam and Eve commandments (be fruitful and mulitply, dont eat of the tree of good and evil etc) and yet not one is given to keep sabbath hint at the fact that they werent commanded to do so?
2. From Genesis-Exodus before Sinia the pariarchs and Isrealites were given commandments concerning: circumsion,sacrifices,the altar,tithe,marriage,feast days etc but not one word is said about a sabbath untill Ex16. Would not this also show that the sabbath was not known untill Ex16 and not given in Gen2?

*[Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.**/I]

This text is a big proof text by SDA’s to show that the sabbath was given to mankind. But Jesus here is stating that the sabbath was given to man and not the other way around. It was to be their servant. Man came first so the sabbath was to serve man. Thats all He was saying. His disciples were leveled with breaking the sabbath. Jesus responds by showing that man is above the sabbath…showing it as ceremonial.

In Matt12 Jesus talked about how David on the sabbath went into the temple to eat the shewbread which was for the priests only.

*[Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?**/I]

The priests would work in the temple on the sabbath killing animals etc…thats why they were blameless for breaking the sabbath. Also it should be mentioned that a boy on his eighth day was to be circumsied if it happened to land on the sabbath day showing again that the sabbath is not a moral commandment but clearly cereimonal in nature. So instead of proving their case Mk2:27,28 actually shows man is supieror to the sabbath.*

 

[Joel1984]

*[Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.Luke 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid./Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.I]

This passage is often cited to show that some of the disciples of Jesus kept the sabbath after his day so we should follow suit. If we turn to Acts2 we see the same women gathered togother on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

We must ask Protestant101, should we also follow suit and keep Pentecost? We know he will say no as the SDA’s are inconsistent in holding onto the sabbath,tithing and dietary laws but rejecting other aspects of the Torah such as the annual sabbaths.

*[John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments./I]

I see one SDA on an earlier post quote this verse saying something to the effect “what other commandments then the 10 would Jesus be refering to?”

1. First off, there were many more than just the “ten commandments” but there were 613 total in the Law of Moses.
2. Paul states to the church at Corinth “the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”(1Cor14:37b)

3)Finally the context of Jn14 makes it clear as to what “commandments” Jesus was referring to.

*John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.[John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me./I]

In Jn14:15 Jesus said if ye love me keep MY commandments. V23,24 He says "If a man love me he will keep my WORDS…SAYINGS. The teachings of Jesus are His commandments. The greek word for commandments is entole-divine precept. If John wanted to refer to the law he could have easily done so as he had the word nomos which he uses many other times to refer to the law of Moses. Jesus is not jumping from His discourse with the disciples to bring them back to Sinia.

Another verse that is quoted by SDA’s along the same lines is 1Jn2:4.

*[1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him./I]

Context is also ignored here also by the SDA’s. Hence proof texting. V5 says the same as Jn14:15’s context.

*[1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him./I]

Commandments again are equivalent to His “word”.

I look forward to some good discussion here on this thread.
God Bless all *****

 

[Joel1984]

To Protestant101

You seem to have admitted the fact that the sabbath can’t be kept properly in the artic. You then seem try to shift the problem off to SDA2RC and the RCC. I don’t think it is a problem for the RCC at all as I believe that the Catholic church doesnt go by sunset as Isreal was commanded to do or as your “prophetess” commands you to do, but they say midnight Saturday night too the last mass on Sunday. I could be wrong on this but I heard that stated a couple times.

You then seem to call SDA2RC a legalist by bringing up the artic argument and you seem to downplay the need to keep the sabbath command as it is outlined in the Torah. If it’s not that important in how one observes the day then it shouldn’t be important whether one keeps it at all. I mean let’s face it Protestant101, your being very inconsistent in your reasoning, coming on here and getting this discussion going. Going on about how important the sabbath is and now you seem to be saying to others who are showing glaring problems with your postion that their being “legalistic” and it really isn’t that important in how you keep the sabbath.

This is contray to the Law itself. It shows clearly how sabbath is to be kept and also the consquences to breaking it. Here are a few regulations tied into the sabbath command Protestant101 and you can tell us if you and your church keep the sabbath according to the way is outlined in scripture.

1)No cooking on the sabbath (Ex16:23)
2)No fires are to be kindled on the sabbath (Ex:35:3)
3)Not to leave your house on the sabbath (Ex16:29)
4)Priest is to offer two lambs on the sabbath (Num28:9)
5)Everyone in your home must keep sabbath (Ex20:10)
6)Must be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev23:32)

It is obvious to any thinking person that the sabbath was given to a specific people at a specific time in a specific part of the world. A careful reading of the Law (Gen-Deut) will show how the sabbath was tied into the temple services and is clearly a ceremonial commandment.

Joel Sexton

 

[Protestant101]

This is my first post on this forum. I have been reading this thread about the Sabbath and can’t help but shake my head at the same old SDA proof texts. As a former SDA i am all too familar with these proof texts. I’d like to make a general reply to what I have read from Protestant101 and the other SDA’s.

LOL; now I am the one shaking my head at the same old Catholic prooftexts.

 

[Protestant101]

Actually Protestant101, the Bible calls the law that was given to Moses on tablets of stone the Ministry of Death, not the ministry of the Spirit.

And what text might that be?

 

[Protestant101]

To Protestant101

You seem to have admitted the fact that the sabbath can’t be kept properly in the artic. You then seem try to shift the problem off to SDA2RC and the RCC. I don’t think it is a problem for the RCC at all as I believe that the Catholic church doesnt go by sunset as Isreal was commanded to do or as your “prophetess” commands you to do, but they say midnight Saturday night too the last mass on Sunday. I could be wrong on this but I heard that stated a couple times.

You then seem to call SDA2RC a legalist by bringing up the artic argument and you seem to downplay the need to keep the sabbath command as it is outlined in the Torah. If it’s not that important in how one observes the day then it shouldn’t be important whether one keeps it at all. I mean let’s face it Protestant101, your being very inconsistent in your reasoning, coming on here and getting this discussion going. Going on about how important the sabbath is and now you seem to be saying to others who are showing glaring problems with your postion that their being “legalistic” and it really isn’t that important in how you keep the sabbath.

The Sabbath can be kept just fine in the artic; you and SDA2RC are the ones saying otherwise. I have no problem with Sabbath in the Artic or elsewhere. Either does God, and I’d like to see you prove otherwise.

Now, since I was good enough to cave in a little and talk a bit about why I say that; perhaps you can tell us how would YOU keep Sunday in the Artic? You guys want me to answer; but for some reason you keep exempting yourself from answering. The “Glaring Problems” you say that exist for Sabbath, would also exist for Sunday. You haven’t explained a single one of them!!

 

[Joel1984]

Protestant101

Maybe you need to read a little more carefully. I talked about the Catholic Church deals with it (even though I am not catholic). The RCC doesnt keep Sunday (the Lord’s Day) as a 24 sabbath, but I believe they keep it from midnight saturday till mass on sunday. I could be wrong on this but thats what I heard from a couple catholics before.

You say theres no problem in keeping the sabbath in the artic. Hello! No sunset for days and days in the winter. Lev23:32. Ring a bell? You should read posts more carefully before responding. Your own bible and prophetess says sabbath must be kept from evening to evening…sunset to sunset. Lev23:32 makes this clear. Without the sun setting in the artic in the winter months you cannot keep sabbath according to how its suppose to be kept according to the law.

Also Protestant101 I sent a couple other posts which I went over some of the classic SDA proof texts that are used to support your postion. I am hoping to see some sort of response.

Joel Sexton

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101

Maybe you need to read a little more carefully. I talked about the Catholic Church deals with it (even though I am not catholic). The RCC doesnt keep Sunday (the Lord’s Day) as a 24 sabbath, but I believe they keep it from midnight saturday till mass on sunday. I could be wrong on this but thats what I heard from a couple catholics before.

You say theres no problem in keeping the sabbath in the artic. Hello! No sunset for days and days in the winter. Lev23:32. Ring a bell? You should read posts more carefully before responding. Your own bible and prophetess says sabbath must be kept from evening to evening…sunset to sunset. Lev23:32 makes this clear. Without the sun setting in the artic in the winter months you cannot keep sabbath according to how its suppose to be kept according to the law.

Also Protestant101 I sent a couple other posts which I went over some of the classic SDA proof texts that are used to support your postion. I am hoping to see some sort of response.

Joel Sexton

Well; perhaps you could try reading “more carefully” too? We’ll do it together.

I did mention a short explanation about the so called Artic problem. But you and SDA2RC seem to have missed that.

My intention in the last few posts I made was to suggest that; yes, some people, on both sides of the fence seem to come up with a pretty big “problem” here; yet, there is enough divine fore-sight in the Sabbath commandment to provide flexibility for those who live in areas where there is no sunset. The so called “problems” are in fact solutions; and the only problems I keep hearing are ones that you, Brandon, and a few others keep drumming up. There are countless arguments about how to “keep” Sabbath or Sunday. Both of our denominations have typically allowed individuals to have some leeway and flexibility in how to spend their day. I did not say there were any problems with Sabbath in the Artic either. I only stated that others, including in both our churches, do indeed concoct some problems; but they are legalistic mumbo-jumbo, not supported by the Bible; or the Catechism.

The one thing there is no flexibility in, in the Sabbath commandment, is to throw it away in New Testament Times; under the guise of “new light.” God is not as worried about exactly HOW we keep the Sabbath; as He is with the fact of "Are we REMEMBERING the Sabbath, which is all the text in the commandment asks us to do.

Of course; you guys will likely continue to evade answering how you would observe Sunday in the Artic; but just keep in mind all those so called "problems you have invented about the Sabbath and sunset. because they also would exist for Sunday.

 

[Joel1984]

Well; perhaps you could try reading “more carefully” too? We’ll do it together.

I did mention a short explanation about the so called Artic problem. But you and SDA2RC seem to have missed that.

My intention in the last few posts I made was to suggest that; yes, some people, on both sides of the fence seem to come up with a pretty big “problem” here; yet, there is enough divine fore-sight in the Sabbath commandment to provide flexibility for those who live in areas where there is no sunset. The so called “problems” are in fact solutions; and the only problems I keep hearing are ones that you, Brandon, and a few others keep drumming up. There are countless arguments about how to “keep” Sabbath or Sunday. Both of our denominations have typically allowed individuals to have some leeway and flexibility in how to spend their day. I did not say there were any problems with Sabbath in the Artic either. I only stated that others, including in both our churches, do indeed concoct some problems; but they are legalistic mumbo-jumbo, not supported by the Bible; or the Catechism.

The one thing there is no flexibility in, in the Sabbath commandment, is to throw it away in New Testament Times; under the guise of “new light.” God is not as worried about exactly HOW we keep the Sabbath; as He is with the fact of "Are we REMEMBERING the Sabbath, which is all the text in the commandment asks us to do.

Of course; you guys will likely continue to evade answering how you would observe Sunday in the Artic; but just keep in mind all those so called "problems you have invented about the Sabbath and sunset. because they also would exist for Sunday.

To Protestant101

You seem to think the fact that there is no sunset for vaired lengths of time in the artic is no problem for your postion. I stated twice that it is a huge problem.

Leviticus 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Your own church and Prophetess Ellen G White states that the sabbath must be kept from sunset to sunset. We will wait and see who you disobey Protestant101, your prophet or your bible.

I will say it again and will keep saying it untill you get it through, it is not a problem for those who “keep sunday” at all as they do not go by sunset. I am pretty sure as I stated twice before that the Catholic Church goes by time and not sunset. They begin the Lord’s Day at Midnight Sunday morning. No problem for them at all but a huge one for you Protestant101. Being evaisive doesn’t make your problem go away.

You mentioned “legalistic mumbo-jumbo.” Maybe you should do a good read on the sabbath in the writings of Ellen White. She was a Pharisee.

“Both of our denominations have typically allowed individuals to have some leeway and flexibility in how to spend their day.”

Nope. Wrong again Protestant101. Myself being a former SDA know very well that there is no leeway at all in how one keeps the sabbath. If you hold to the fact that Ellen White was inspired you better be ready to take notes, as she has loads of rules in how to keep sabbath.

"God is not as worried about exactly HOW we keep the Sabbath; as He is with the fact of “Are we REMEMBERING the Sabbath, which is all the text in the commandment asks us to do.”

God was worried in how Isreal kept the sabbath. Go back to one of my previous posts. I give I think around six verses that have regulations tied to the sabbath command. None which SDA’s comply to today. The command in Ex20 and Deut5 don’t give a list of do’s and don’ts but other places in the law He clearly does and to ignore them is to BREAK THE SABBATH. Read Ex16 Protestant101 and tell us if your attitude would be alright in that context. Leave your house to gather manna. Doesn’t matter how you keep the day as long as you “remeber it.” You would have been cut off…stoned to death.

Finally, nope, I’m not being evasive at all. This is the third time I answered about the artic question. It clearly is a huge problem for you and your postion but not at all for Catholics as they dont view Sunday as the Sabbath but as the Lord’s Day and start at midnight but in the law it is clear that the sabbath is to start at sunset which you mentioned is how you keep it in a previous post.

I still would like to have a rebuttal on my posts Protestant 101 on Gen2; Mk2; Lk23 etc. Silence doesn’t make the problems go away. It is clear to everyone who is reading this thread that your quickly back peddling.

Joel Sexton

 

[Protestant101]

To Protestant101

You seem to think the fact that there is no sunset for vaired lengths of time in the artic is no problem for your postion. I stated twice that it is a huge problem.

Leviticus 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Joel Sexton

But, if no one knows when Sabbath really begins in the Artic; they also won’t know when Sunday begins. (even if you don’t go by sunset). And why would God tell people who had no sunset, to go by sunset? Do you mean to tell me there was no Artic in the beginning, on that first Sabbath; and that maybe God didn’t know what he was doing? You are twisting one text out of context from Lev., and making it a pre-text. This is one of the reasons I have stated that there is no problem with keeping the Sabbath in the Artic or anywhere else; except for the problems you are creating. God was particular, in fact, about how people kept the Sabbath; but He was never legalistic like this, and he was always practical and realistic about it. God and His Word have created no problem with Sabbath keeping - anywhere in the world. It is only people who do that.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You talk of the parable in Galations 4. The whole quote and my comments would not fit on this post, so I deleted the verses. People should look them up so they know what we are talking about.

This passage is very clear; there is no way around the biblical evidence for the abolishing of the ten commandment covenant by Christ and the replacement of the Old Covenant law with the New Covenant Laws, which do not contain the Jewish Sabbath.

Protestant101, the Sabbath was a sign to Israel, there is nothing in scripture which says that the Sabbath is a sign of anything to Christians. Our Signs of Christ’s authority and presence with us are the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist and Holy Orders.

You bring up some good points here. I beleive your conclusions may be misdirected however.
I think we need to take a look at just what a covenant is. A covenant is a testament or a contract between two parties. In this case, between God and man. Gods plan of salvation can be summed up in two words The Law and The Prophets. The law was given to us for one reason and that is to show us that we are sinners and in need of a savior, redeemer. The prophets tell us who that is Rev.19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now going back to Galations we have to realize why Paul wrote to these churches. It seems after he set up the churches certain false bretheran, I beleive they were Pharacees, came into the churches and started preaching that people had to be circumcized or become Jews in the flesh before they could become Christians. Paul got wind of this and wrote his letter to the Galations. Which was by the way a number of churches in an area called Galatia (somewhere in Asia). Paul tries to straighten them out. Gal.3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And then in ch. 4 he gives the parable of Hagar and Sarah, being symbolic of legallism (saved by the keeping of the law) and the promise (saved by Jesus Christ.) Paul is not telling us that the law has been done away with, but that we are not saved by putting ourselves under bondage to it, that Christ has set us free from the idea that we must take responsability for our own salvation through the keeping of the law.
Jn.8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

When we accept Christ and his sacrifice for us. We are no longer are under the bondadge of sin because we keep the commandments, not because we think we are saved because we do so, but because we love Jesus. Jn.14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.In other words the law ( the Ten Commandments) become written in our minds and on our hearts.
Heb.10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Gods’s solution for the sin problem was and is Jesus Christ. It is through Him and only through Him that we are saved Jn.14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Thank you for making me go back into the word of God and getting this straight in my own mind. I hope it can be of some help.
Yours in Christ Richard