Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...

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GaryTaylor said:
What I find most alarming and sad about Fatima, is that many of the later approved apparitions seem to continue to confirm the message of Fatima.

I often wonder about the idea of a part of Third Secret not being released also. From SR Lucys own book and what many who have said who knew her personally. The part that starts with the sentence…

“In Portugal, **the dogma of the faithfull **will always be preserved.” Its said this is the first sentence that are Our Lady of Fatimas words that have yet to be released. I find the argument on this very compelling.

I believe Cardinal Ratzinger who is obviously now the Pope, also made a comment on this about being the same message of Akita.

And there seems to much other evidence that confirms a missing part of the message yet to be revealed.

Nowhere ever has the sentence “In Portugal the dogme of the faithfull will be preserved” been revealed as of yet. Something seems not right about that.

God Bless, GT
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Well, … now you have me thinking about this. Do you, or anyone else, happen to know what the dogma of the faithful is?
 
beehumble said:
and:

On 13 June 1929 at Tuy, Spain, The Holy Trinity and Blessed Mary appeared to Sr. Lucia to request the act of consecration (fulfilling what she said in the second part: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays.)

And a daily rosary is understood to have been requested - Our Lady of Fatima is also known as Our Lady of the Rosary.

That is what happened at Fatima. It was underscored by the Miracle of the Sun on 13 October 1917 during the final apparition.
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Hello beehumble, interesting that this all happened in the very year that the Concordat was signed,February 11, 1929.

Regard, ORD.
 
JReducation said:
When we explain the miracle of Fatima or any other, let us always remember to tell people that these miracles are not Catholic doctrine. They are worthy of belief. Catholics are not boiund to believe them.

I agree that given so much information on them, it would be silly not to believe them. But we must represent the Church’s position, not our own. When we do represent our own position, we must always state that this is the case.

There are many adherents to the miracle of Fatima, including the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II and yours truly. But the Church is not morally bound to comply with these requests because they were communicated in a private revelation. The Church reserves the right to adopt a private revelation as part of her belief or to simply say that it is worthy of belief and leave it at that. That is the case with the miracles and messages of Fatima.

There are some private revelations that the Church has adopted, St. Faustina comes to mind, the Rule of St. Francis is another, the conversion of Paul and there are others, where the Lord spoke privately to people, but the Church took what he said as intended for everyone and made it pat of the life of the Church.

We do believe that Our Lady appeared at Fatima, because there is nothing in the apparitions that is contrary to the faith. Everything in the messages is consistent with the faith. As far as the requests are concerned, that’s really up to Church authority to comply or not according to the Church’s discretion. This gets tricky here, because even though we’re speaking about the Lord’s mother, even she does not outrank the pope. She would never ask us to turn against him or to dispute him. That’s not how she operates. She leads all men back to Christ through His Church, not around it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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How can the Miracle of the Sun be a private revelation when it occurred in front of 70,000 witnesses? This miracle was public so that all (the entire world) would believe. God sent our Mother to give us the prophecy. It is coming true right before our eyes. The Holy See (Pope) is being persecuted daily due to the past pedophile among many priests within the church, the media, the lawsuits against the church etc. It is embarassment and humliation. This is one of the things Our lady warned us of. Do you think it will stop? It will only be stopped once the true Consecretion of Russia be completed (by name) along with the bishops and laity.

There have been six attempts of the Consecretation of Russia. All attempts have been done incorrectly. It is like a recipe. If you leave out the main ingredidient(s), the result is not going to be successful.
 
Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
Saint Augustine
 
Windfish said:
I want to learn as much as I can before I present a case for the events of Our Lady of Fatima. I have just finished reading Our Lady of Fatima by William Thomas Walsh and am currently reading Documents on Fatima & the Memoirs of Sister Lucia. I have a few questions that were not explored enough in adequate detail or not explored at all in the books:

-Conspicuously absent from the books are articles from Portuguese newspapers reporting the Miracle of the Sun. Can anyone link me to a resource which has published these articles? Wikipedia has an entry on the Miracle of the Sun and quotes from some of the articles, but I would like a more complete and reliable resource.

-Were the first two messages that were imparted to Saint Lucia by Our Lady published or otherwise publicly revealed before Lucia’s memoirs? I had previously thought that the three children spoke of the first two messages to all those who were curious. However, I have not found any documentation of the children speaking about their vision of Hell and/or the Blessed Virgin’s request for the consecration of Russia. This is an important detail, I think. If they were first revealed in Saint Lucia’s memoirs, skeptics can claim that the first two messages have no prophetic value because they were revealed after the events they “foretold.”

-I have read, I’m not sure where, that part of the reason Our Lady’s prophecies were so remarkable is because no one, at that time, could have thought that communism would take over Russia. Is this true? Why would there be so much incredulity over this possibility?

-I have also read tha theret were witnesses to the Miracle of the Sun kilometers away from the Cova da Ira, but I have not seen any documentation to attest this. In particular, I read of an atheist poet who saw the miracle. Can someone please refer to me a resource which has published the testimonies of these witnesses?

-How does one effectively respond to the charge that the Miracle of the Sun was the result of eye strain from staring at the sun too long?
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JL: I can’t remember the book where I read about the news paper articles, I seem to remember, but not sure of the name of the paper, I think it was the Chicago Sun Times. There was supposed to be a small article about the miracle at Fatima. It wasn’t on the front page.
 
nice2000 said:
How can the Miracle of the Sun be a private revelation when it occurred in front of 70,000 witnesses? This miracle was public so that all (the entire world) would believe.
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The term “private revelation” has nothing to do with how many people saw a miracle or an apparition. “Private revelation” is so called to distinguish it from “public revelation.” “Public revelation” is the Deposit of Faith, to which nothing further will be added. Jesus Christ is the fullness of all revelation, in Whom God has told us all that He is going to tell us. But public revelation is not completely explicit, and is so full of content that the Church will spend the rest of time unpacking it. Legitimate private revelations assist us in our faith, but never add to nor improve upon public revelation. See CCC at 65-73.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Yet when these Miracles happen time after time, as in Zeituon Egypt again in 1969. When once again thousands witnessed a apparition of Our Lady confirmed with miracles of healing. And people who were not there refuse to listen and believe? We as the faithfull who truly believe and follow this faith are left with our hands tied. We Pray for non-believers. Our Lady showed the children of Fatima hell where many Souls go because there is no-one to Pray for them.

Most of what we as the believers do, is in the spirit of reverence and charity to all others. Not really chasing people around with Bibles and beating them over the head contrary to popular opinion. Its simply a strong feeling of faith confirmed through history.

And BTW Our Lady of Fatima wasn’t only referring to non-believers. “The most Holy Virgin is sad because nobody has paid attention to her message, neither the good or the bad.” Sr Lucy

God Bless, GT
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The problem with miracles is that sometime miracles not related to Christ or Christianity happen. Do you believe those? I’m guessing not. Yet there is just as much proof or non-proof for any miracle you believe in.
 
Victorious said:
The term “private revelation” has nothing to do with how many people saw a miracle or an apparition. “Private revelation” is so called to distinguish it from “public revelation.” “Public revelation” is the Deposit of Faith, to which nothing further will be added. Jesus Christ is the fullness of all revelation, in Whom God has told us all that He is going to tell us. But public revelation is not completely explicit, and is so full of content that the Church will spend the rest of time unpacking it. Legitimate private revelations assist us in our faith, but never add to nor improve upon public revelation. See CCC at 65-73.
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Every time I hear those who say it was a private revleation they are telling us not to believe it because it was private. The Miracle of the Sun and messages from our lady was for the entire world to believe. God allowed our Mother to perform the Miracle of the Sun so that all would believe the messages she prophesised to the three seers. It makes me sad to hear that just because it was a private revelation we are not to believe it.
 
I think many people take the wrong approach simply because of the terminology, ‘private’, not intending overtly, but in fact acting like those who make religion itself a private matter rather than a public one.

There’s a spin put on it by some folks that want to compartmentalize it and set it aside rather than realize there’s far more to it than a mere distinguishment from dogma. Which is a technical distinguishment…

All things that are true, we should acknowledge as such, and are true whether we acknowledge them or not, and have **great **or less weight according to their substance.
 
nice2000 said:
Every time I hear those who say it was a private revleation they are telling us not to believe it because it was private. The Miracle of the Sun and messages from our lady was for the entire world to believe. God allowed our Mother to perform the Miracle of the Sun so that all would believe the messages she prophesised to the three seers. It makes me sad to hear that just because it was a private revelation we are not to believe it.
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I think you got it wrong.

It is a private revelation, as all apparitions are, and not required for belief. The Church rules on the apparitions, those it approves of, like Fatima, it states are “worthy of belief”.

So while approved private revelations are not required for belief that does not mean that we should not believe.

I have a problem when people try to say that everyone should believe.

Fatima really plays no role in my spiritual life so I do not believe but I also do not disbelieve, its just to relevant to me right now.

This may change, it may not. Right now Lourdes is playing a big role in my life (due to an illness) where before last year Lourdes was like Fatima to me. The Divine Mercy message of St Faustina played a big role in my life a few years ago, now not so much.

We are human beings and we grow and change, there is a lot out there for us and some will fit today, some will fit tomorrow, some may never fit. All that matters is that we hold to what the Church Teaches.
 
nice2000 said:
Every time I hear those who say it was a private revleation they are telling us not to believe it because it was private. The Miracle of the Sun and messages from our lady was for the entire world to believe. God allowed our Mother to perform the Miracle of the Sun so that all would believe the messages she prophesised to the three seers. It makes me sad to hear that just because it was a private revelation we are not to believe it.
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Agreed. What they seem to forget is that the Miracle of the Sun took place in October. Our Blessed Mother promised the Miracle in Advance and then Delivered.

Our Blessed Mother asked us to make reparation for the Sins against her Divine Son.

To do the Five First Saturdays - Holy Communion - Confession - Attending Mass and Praying 5 Decades of the Holy Rosary and meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary for 15 Minutes in making reparation on the First Saturday of Five Consecutive Months.

And to Pray 5 Decades of the Holy Rosary every day for the same purpose.

She likewise wanted the Pope to Consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart - But has everyone here done the Five First Saturdays?
 
Robert_Burns said:
Agreed. What they seem to forget is that the Miracle of the Sun took place in October. Our Blessed Mother promised the Miracle in Advance and then Delivered.

Our Blessed Mother asked us to make reparation for the Sins against her Divine Son.

To do the Five First Saturdays - Holy Communion - Confession - Attending Mass and Praying 5 Decades of the Holy Rosary and meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary for 15 Minutes in making reparation on the First Saturday of Five Consecutive Months.

And to Pray 5 Decades of the Holy Rosary every day for the same purpose.

She likewise wanted the Pope to Consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart - But has everyone here done the Five First Saturdays?
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So are you trying to say that certain private devotions are required?
 
Windfish said:
I want to learn as much as I can before I present a case for the events of Our Lady of Fatima. I have just finished reading Our Lady of Fatima by William Thomas Walsh and am currently reading Documents on Fatima & the Memoirs of Sister Lucia. I have a few questions that were not explored enough in adequate detail or not explored at all in the books:

-Conspicuously absent from the books are articles from Portuguese newspapers reporting the Miracle of the Sun. Can anyone link me to a resource which has published these articles? Wikipedia has an entry on the Miracle of the Sun and quotes from some of the articles, but I would like a more complete and reliable resource.

-Were the first two messages that were imparted to Saint Lucia by Our Lady published or otherwise publicly revealed before Lucia’s memoirs? I had previously thought that the three children spoke of the first two messages to all those who were curious. However, I have not found any documentation of the children speaking about their vision of Hell and/or the Blessed Virgin’s request for the consecration of Russia. This is an important detail, I think. If they were first revealed in Saint Lucia’s memoirs, skeptics can claim that the first two messages have no prophetic value because they were revealed after the events they “foretold.”

-I have read, I’m not sure where, that part of the reason Our Lady’s prophecies were so remarkable is because no one, at that time, could have thought that communism would take over Russia. Is this true? Why would there be so much incredulity over this possibility?

-I have also read tha theret were witnesses to the Miracle of the Sun kilometers away from the Cova da Ira, but I have not seen any documentation to attest this. In particular, I read of an atheist poet who saw the miracle. Can someone please refer to me a resource which has published the testimonies of these witnesses?

-How does one effectively respond to the charge that the Miracle of the Sun was the result of eye strain from staring at the sun too long?
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I suggest buying Fatima: the Great sign by Francis Johnston (TAN). You can buy it here: )‘willingcatholicmartyr’ (willinghereticalhypocrite is a much better title) does not know a thing on childhood innocence a he shows on his website:banghead:.absoloutely ridiculous****un
 
nice2000 said:
Every time I hear those who say it was a private revleation they are telling us not to believe it because it was private. The Miracle of the Sun and messages from our lady was for the entire world to believe. God allowed our Mother to perform the Miracle of the Sun so that all would believe the messages she prophesised to the three seers. It makes me sad to hear that just because it was a private revelation we are not to believe it.
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JL: It isn’t that we ARE NOT TO BELIEVE IT, I do. We do not HAVE TO BELIEVE IT, as a Catholic I do not have to believe any private revelation. We are only bound TO BELIEVE in what is called public revelation, which is that faith once delivered to the Church by Christ.
 
philipmarie said:
I suggest buying Fatima: the Great sign by Francis Johnston (TAN). You can buy it here: [

As for the Miracle of the Sun being the result of an eye strain, that is absoloutely ridiculous](http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/1/[/URL). They said for one thing that when they stared at the sun, the yes didn’t get hurt at all. Also, we do not see the sun dance when we get eye strain and if our eyes get strained, we do not shout: “OMG, MIRACLE! MIRACLE!” The only people who do that are those who, because they take a photo of the sun at Medjugorje and it happens that there is a puple dot in the middle of the sun.

Also, can 40,000 people have seen the same thing when their eyes got ‘strained’? I sincerely do not mean to be rude, nor do I want to show racist discrimination but, do Portugese people have something in their eyes that makes them see circles dance when their eyes get strained? Of course not, because it wasn’t only the Portugese who saw the miracle of the Sun.

And, if you are having these doubts because you read the stupid articles of ‘willingcatholicmartyr’, an incredibly proud, presumptous man who calls Holy Popes such as Pius X, Leo XIII anti-popes and interprets their writings in a wrong light, then please don’t. If Lucia, Jacinta and Francesco were lying, then they would have given away that they were lying under all that persecution which they had to suffer at the hands of their family and the government. Tha Pastor of Porto de Moz said to Jacinta that Lucia admited to him that all this Apparition stuff was a lie. Jacinta responded that Lucia said no such thing, that she would never say that that.
“But she admitted everything!” He said. “No, no, no.” repeted Jacinta with the same assurance. He later said to his companion: “I need no further proofs. This attitude of a child of seven is enough for me.”

I find it utterly ridiculous that children as young as that, even if they weren’t persecuted, would make up such a lie and keep it for the rest of their lives, even when things could have gone out of hand. I find it even more ridiculous that such children would deliberately choose to be hypocrites. It seems (un)‘willingcatholicmartyr’ (willinghereticalhypocrite is a much better title) does not know a thing on childhood innocence a he shows on his website:banghead:.

Just a question, is there a certain number people who see phenomenon for it to be mandatory that people believe that it happened?
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ByzCath said:
Just a question, is there a certain number people who see phenomenon for it to be mandatory that people believe that it happened?
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Well when I see Pope after Pope after Pope going to Fatima am I to ignore their example?
 
Robert_Burns said:
Are you saying that the Church erred in proclaiming Fatima?
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You are aware that when the Church “approves” of an apparition all it states is that it is “worthy of belief”. The Church requires nothing from a private apparition.

So please answer my question, are you stating that certain private devotions are required?
 
Robert_Burns said:
Well when I see Pope after Pope after Pope going to Fatima am I to ignore their example?
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Again, answering a question with a question that has nothing to do with the actual question asked.

A very bad habit.

Setting up straw men?

Afraid to answer?
 
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