Sex Abuse in Catholic Church was Homosexual Problem, not Pedophilia: Vatican

[rlg94086]

Yea, they are called pedophiles. Why is this a problem? Why can’t people face the possibility that the priests and the nuns who harmed, molested and sexually abused male and female children were not homosexuals or lesbians? Tuff pill to swallow? I still think the J report is about minimizing, deflecting and evading. Let’s face it, It’s easier with PR, media and the faithful to believe or led to believe, if a HOMO did it. The problem and the danger with all this is getting busy making clasifications of abused and abusers, while ignoring the problem. Imagine the problem if a pedophile is not a homosexual?

Please read The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) which is published by the American Psychiatric Association and provides diagnostic criteria for mental disorders. It is used in the United States and in varying degrees around the world, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and policy makers. In the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) there no link between Homosexuality and Pedophilia.

B]Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text

Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders > Introduction > Paraphilias >

302.2 Pedophilia

Topics Discussed: pedophilia.

Excerpt: “The paraphilic focus of Pedophilia involves sexual activity with a** prepubescent child**…”

I’m glad you found the clear statement supporting what we have been telling you.

An adolescent is not prepubescent; therefore, we are not generally dealing with pedophiles. That’s why there is a ‘problem’ calling them pedophiles.

 

[estesbob]

rlg94086;5810984:

Quote:

**Originally Posted by NewEnglandPries **
Yo are correct that this is not a question of pedophiles since the victims were mostly teenagers. However, there is still a difference between a homosexual predator and a homosexual. Just as there’s a huge difference between the average heterosexual man who seeks relations with adults and the abnormal heterosexual man who seeks to victimize teenage girls.
QUOTE]

Yea, they are called pedophiles. Why is this a problem? Why can’t people face the possibility that the priests and the nuns who harmed, molested and sexually abused male and female children were not homosexuals or lesbians? Tuff pill to swallow? I still think the J report is about minimizing, deflecting and evading. Let’s face it, It’s easier with PR, media and the faithful to believe or led to believe, if a HOMO did it. The problem and the danger with all this is getting busy making clasifications of abused and abusers, while ignoring the problem. Imagine the problem if a pedophile is not a homosexual?

Please read The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) which is published by the American Psychiatric Association and provides diagnostic criteria for mental disorders. It is used in the United States and in varying degrees around the world, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and policy makers. In the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) there no link between Homosexuality and Pedophilia.

B]Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text

Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders > Introduction > Paraphilias >

302.2 Pedophilia

Topics Discussed: pedophilia.

Excerpt: “The paraphilic focus of Pedophilia involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger). The individual with Pedophilia must be age 16 years or older and at least 5 years older than the child. For individuals in late adolescence with Pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judgment must be used; both the sexual maturity of the child and the age difference must be taken into account. Individuals with Pedophilia generally report an attraction to children of a particular age range. Some individuals prefer males, others females, and some are aroused by both males and females. Those attracted to females usually prefer 8- to 10-year-olds, whereas those attracted to males usually prefer slightly older children. Pedophilia involving female victims is reported more often than Pedophilia involving male victims. Some individuals with Pedophilia are sexually attracted only to children (Exclusive Type), whereas others are sometimes attracted to adults (Nonexclusive Type). Individuals with Pedophilia who act on their urges with children may limit their activity to undressing the child and looking, exposing themselves, masturbating in the presence of the child, or gentle touching and fondling of the child. Others, however, perform fellatio or cunnilingus on the child or penetrate the child’s vagina, mouth, or anus with their fingers, foreign objects, or penis and use varying degrees of force to do so. These activities are commonly explained with excuses or rationalizations that they have “educational value” for the child, that the child derives “sexual pleasure” from them, or that the child was “sexually provocative”—themes that are also common in pedophilic pornography. Because of the ego-syntonic nature of Pedophilia, many individuals with pedophilic fantasies, urges, or behaviors do not experience significant distress. It is important to understand that experiencing distress about having the fantasies, urges, or behaviors is not necessary for a diagnosis of Pedophilia. Individuals who have a pedophilic arousal pattern and act on these fantasies or urges with a child qualify for the diagnosis of Pedophilia.Individuals may limit their activities to their own children, stepchildren, or relatives or may victimize children outside their families. Some individuals with Pedophilia threaten the child to prevent disclosure. Others, particularly those who frequently victimize children, develop complicated techniques for obtaining access to children, which may include winning the trust of a child’s mother, marrying a woman with an attractive child, trading children with other individuals with Pedophilia, or, in rare instances, taking in foster children from nonindustrialized countries or abducting children from strangers. Except in cases in which the disorder is associated with Sexual Sadism, the person may be attentive to the child’s needs in order to gain the child’s affection, interest, and loyalty and to prevent the child from reporting the sexual activity. The disorder usually begins in adolescence, although some individuals with Pedophilia report that they did not become aroused by children until middle age. The frequency of pedophilic behavior often fluctuates with psychosocial stress. The course is usually chronic, especially in those attracted to males. The recidivism rate for individuals with Pedophilia involving a preference for males is roughly twice that for those who prefer females…”

Which verifies what we have been saying all along-there was very little pediophilia involved in the sexual abuse cases.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Perhaps, but since the numbers show 80% are homosexual predators, it would make sense for the Vatican to be more concerned with discernment of same-sex oriented men than heterosexual men.

80% of priestly predators were homosexuals. Yet we also have numerous priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. who are homosexual, chaste, and excellent servants of the Church.
The seminary visitation was correct that the seminary system seems in culture to favor homosexuality over heterosexuality and that is a huge problem. But that being said, a witch hunt to expel gays would deprive the Church of many good priests and bishops.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Yea, they are called pedophiles. Why is this a problem?

Um, did you even read the DSM definition of a pedophile? It clearly states: “The paraphilic focus of Pedophilia involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger).”
Most of the abuse was with teenagers, thus the predators are not properly termed pedophiles.

Why can’t people face the possibility that the priests and the nuns who harmed, molested and sexually abused male and female children were not homosexuals or lesbians? Tuff pill to swallow?

Huh? When an adult male sexually assaults a 15 year old girl, he’s not a pedophile. He’s a predatory heterosexual but not a pedophile.

This is the problem in addressing this issue. We need to address the issues as they are and not as we want them to be.

 

[rlg94086]

80% of priestly predators were homosexuals. Yet we also have numerous priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. who are homosexual, chaste, and excellent servants of the Church.
The seminary visitation was correct that the seminary system seems in culture to favor homosexuality over heterosexuality and that is a huge problem. But that being said,** a witch hunt to expel gays** would deprive the Church of many good priests and bishops.

Who is advocating that?

BTW…“80% of priestly predators were homosexuals” and “80% are homosexual predators” is the same thing. I didn’t say that 80% of homosexual priests are predators…just that 80% of the predators were homosexuals.

Do you know what percentage of priests are same-sex oriented? I don’t. I’m assuming it is less than 50%, since the population at large is less than 10% by the most liberal estimate. Even at 50%, it would mean that a same-sex oriented priest is more likely to prey on a minor than a heterosexually oriented priest. Otherwise, the number wouldn’t be 80%. All I’ve stated is that it makes sense for the Vatican to be more concerned with homosexual candidates for the priesthood than heterosexual candidates. In light of the numbers, this seems clear to me.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Who is advocating that?

You’d be surprised. I’ve heard all sorts of things since the John J report came out.

BTW…“80% of priestly predators were homosexuals” and “80% are homosexual predators” is the same thing. I didn’t say that 80% of homosexual priests are predators…just that 80% of the predators were homosexuals.

I understand what you’re saying but I was just trying to spit the hair, so to speak. Just trying to draw a distinction between homosexuals who are attracted to adults and those who are attracted to teens.

Do you know what percentage of priests are same-sex oriented? I don’t. I’m assuming it is less than 50%, since the population at large is less than 10% by the most liberal estimate. Even at 50%, it would mean that a same-sex oriented priest is more likely to prey on a minor than a heterosexually oriented priest. Otherwise, the number wouldn’t be 80%. All I’ve stated is that it makes sense for the Vatican to be more concerned with homosexual candidates for the priesthood than heterosexual candidates. In light of the numbers, this seems clear to me.

There’s no way to know for sure and it probably varies from diocese to diocese. But my guess would be that, overall for the USA, its somewhere around 50% (with a margin of error of +/- 5%),
Where I see an issue is that the focus seems to be on homosexuals as a group and not on the segment of the homosexuals that are doing this. As a heterosexual I would find it offensive that someone would think I was a risk to teenage girls because the priest that was here in the 70’s had sexually assaulted teenage girls. Just because I shared the heterosexal orientation with that priest does not mean I share his perverted inclinations.

A high school in my area growing up had a series of problems with male teachers engaging in sexual activity with female students. Does that mean all heterosexual teachers should have been suspect? No, the school enlisted help in how to see the warning signs that someone might engage in that type of behavior.

 

[estesbob]

There’s no way to know for sure and it probably varies from diocese to diocese. But my guess would be that, overall for the USA, its somewhere around 50% (with a margin of error of +/- 5%),
.

And you guess is based on what?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And you guess is based on what?

The fact that I know priests around the country, have been to seminary, know priests and seminarians in seminaries, various conferences I’ve attended around the country for years, etc. etc. I also have known priests/religious who have worked in personel in various dioceses as well as individuals who have worked at the Vatican. Not to mention I’ve been fortunate enough to have been in the casual company of several bishops throughout the years and have laughed and discussed various issues with them. Like I said, I’m making my own “educated guess” based on priests and bishops I have known through the years. I’ve simply been fortunate enough to have friends who have either “gone places” or friends who are friendly with people who have “gone places” and so I have been in their casual company to discuss the “state of the church.”

If you wish to believe otherwise, go ahead, I’m just making a guesstimate. Its also around the number that I’ve seen others claim and its always made sense based on what I’ve witnessed/heard.

 

[estesbob]

The fact that I know priests around the country, have been to seminary, know priests and seminarians in seminaries, various conferences I’ve attended around the country for years, etc. etc. I also have known priests/religious who have worked in personel in various dioceses as well as individuals who have worked at the Vatican. Not to mention I’ve been fortunate enough to have been in the casual company of several bishops throughout the years and have laughed and discussed various issues with them. Like I said, I’m making my own “educated guess” based on priests and bishops I have known through the years. I’ve simply been fortunate enough to have friends who have either “gone places” or friends who are friendly with people who have “gone places” and so I have been in their casual company to discuss the “state of the church.”

If you wish to believe otherwise, go ahead, I’m just making a guesstimate. Its also around the number that I’ve seen others claim and its always made sense based on what I’ve witnessed/heard.

We have similar backgounds-i too know Priests around the country and spent 4 years in the seminary-late 60s for me. i would be suprised if it was over 10%.I also dont think they need to try to seach for any closeted homosexuals in the Priesthood-But they need to be very careful as to who they let in the seminaries in the future.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

We have similar backgounds-i too know Priests around the country and spent 4 years in the seminary-late 60s for me. i would be suprised if it was over 10%.I also dont think they need to try to seach for any closeted homosexuals in the Priesthood-But they need to be very careful as to who they let in the seminaries in the future.

I would be absolutely shocked if it was under 25%. A friend of mine is in vocations work in another part of the country and he’s amazed at the number of homosexual candidates. He struggles over who to accept and reject. And the NAC used to be for “the few, the proud, the destined for greatness” and now its got the same problems as the American seminaries.

But I do agree that the church needs to reconfigure how we evaluate candidates and run our seminaries.

 

[miguel]

I would be absolutely shocked if it was under 25%.

So you went from 50% with a margin of error of +/-5% down to 25%. Is this a horse trade?

 

[RobbyS]

What is the difference if a priest and or member of the clergy sexually abused a child was:

A: A homosexual or
B: A pedophile??

This doesn’t make any difference, they are both guilty as they are an adult and they are abusing a young person under the age of 18.

And the answer being given is: There’s more of them in Public school. Where did this study come from? Unlike private school, public school has parents in the faces of the administration and the teachers. The ACLU has represented students, parents get lawyers and public schools afford rights that you sign away in private schools. I went to private and public schools in the 60’s and 70’s and if you are going to get away with abuse, it’s not going to be in the public schools.

I still don’t understand what position people are taking here? Is this an attempt to diffuse an uncomfortable subject?

I don’t think you understand the situation in the public schools. There are more than 10,000 school districts in the United States and they are all autonymous. Bad apples --drunks, thieves, child molesters–are many times able to escape punishment because the districts will allow them to resign just to get rid of them. The person moves say a thousand miles away and applies to another school district, where at certain times a years, say in August, the district just wants a warm body in a classroom. The background check is often so cursory that even a felony conviction might slip through, and more often the circumstance of his departure from another district may not come to light by his simply not listing his employment in the district where he was “caught” There is absolutely no central clearing house, although steps have been taken. Now you have about 3 million teachers in the United States. If even 1% go bad you have a number greater than the number of bad priests. Probably it is the same per cent. as the number of priests which is closer to 5%. Lots of bad apples.

 

[RobbyS]

Yo are correct that this is not a question of pedophiles since the victims were mostly teenagers. However, there is still a difference between a homosexual predator and a homosexual. Just as there’s a huge difference between the average heterosexual man who seeks relations with adults and the abnormal heterosexual man who seeks to victimize teenage girls.

Yes, but something new has been added to the mix. The homosexual lifestyle is somewhat “mad” if I may use the term, as abnormal generally like the “lifestyle” of the young draftees in a wwII training camp. The troops had access, for the most part, only to prostitutes and ladies of loose morals. STDs ravaged the camps. At some times the “casualties” from it exceeded the number of battle wounded. Men deeply involved in the gay life style live their whole young lives in such a feverish situation. Just recall the bath houses in SF, where men would have dozens of encounters every night. But this lifestyle is now widely tolerated.
Movies and television plays, one for the “normal” public, don’t depict these goings on. Instead, they are played for humor,m as though the relationship between two men were like that between boy and girl is most movies. The ordinary gay movie character is sort of like the " Miss Kitty"character in"GunSmoke," or the" dancehall" girls generally. One did not have to spell this out for adult audiences who didn’t have to be shown what goes on upstairs. But modern homosexuality is every bit as bad as prostitution, and part of that is the prostitution of young boys. None of this comes through on TV. Furthermore, this lifestyle is more and more protected by the law. We have got to the point where one is not allowed to say anything bad about it in public. One cannot even point out that the ultimate STD IS an STD, primarily. that homosexual sex is as unhealthy as sharing needles, etc. Certainly no one will admit that the priests who betrayed their calling were , most of them, homosexuals, that the very lifestyle ought not to be tolerated because it produced such bad fruit.

 

[Ronsatron]

Hi everyone,

After reading through the pages of this topic, I am still somewhat confused as to it’s purpose. If, as people are suggesting, that up to 80% of the cases were due to homosexual predators, what does this actually change?

Is it just a way of deflecting the abuse away from the CC and onto gay people? Is the sexual abuse of the children any less of a crime? Is the CC no longer responsible for years of abuse?

I understand there is a point being made regardng the label of paedophilia, but that does not change the fact that the abuse was illegal. Those who raped adolescent boys do not represent the gay community just as those who raped pre-pubescent boys do not represent the heterosexual community.

Any thoughts are welcomed.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

So you went from 50% with a margin of error of +/-5% down to 25%. Is this a horse trade?

Um, no. My guess is somewhere around 50% but I wouldn’t be “shocked” if it came in at a lower rate. But anything below 25% I would find shocking based on what I have seen/heard/read.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Men deeply involved in the gay life style live their whole young lives in such a feverish situation. Just recall the bath houses in SF, where men would have dozens of encounters every night. But this lifestyle is now widely tolerated.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that’s not every gay person and its probably not even the majority of gay people any more. In the Northeast where homosexuality is essentially culturally equal to heterosexuality there is not such widespread things as you describe. Most gays in the northeast live lives pretty similiar to their heterosexual counterparts.

But modern homosexuality is every bit as bad as prostitution, and part of that is the prostitution of young boys.

So you’re claiming that the average homosexual individual supports the prostitution of young boys? Are you serious?

 

[rlg94086]

So you went from 50% with a margin of error of +/-5% down to 25%. Is this a horse trade?

That’s what I was thinking - haggling about the percentage. I figured they would agree on 15-20% next.

 

[miguel]

Um, no. My guess is somewhere around 50% but I wouldn’t be “shocked” if it came in at a lower rate. But anything below 25% I would find shocking based on what I have seen/heard/read.

If it’s only a guess, I wouldn’t throw numbers around unless I could cite credible studies. Otherwise, I think you made some good points.

 

[mscrivani]

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/editor/menupop.gif

I believe that the old practice of taking boys after 8th grade and putting them in the junior seminary may have contributed to the problem. How many of these criminal priests were themselves molested? To freeze the sexual growth of a boy at age 13 has some serious consequences. This may explain the attraction of some of these criminal priests to boys in that age group.