Sex and Marriage

[toe]

Hello all,

My girlfriend and I had an interesting conversation last night on which we’d like to get additional perspectives. We’re both 21, Catholic, and attending university.

If we decide to get married but we do not want children, are we to abstain from having sex? We reached the conclusion of “Yes”.

We’ve read that sexual intercourse exists for us to achieve a duality: bearing children and marital unity. With that, it should be assumed that one without the other is abusing the functional nature of sex.

We’d like to be married sometime after obtaining our undergraduate degrees, but there are specific things in life we want to do together afterwards. Next year, we intend to obtain our CETL certifications so that we may teach English abroad for awhile. Afterward, I would very much like to pursue my M.D. and she a Ph.D.

We know ourselves quite well, and we simply don’t know how plausible it is for us to successfully avoid sex all those years. This problem, though, brings up a broader issue: if a man and woman, married, can only afford to have, say, 5 children, are they only to have sex until they have their 5th child? After he or she is born, are they to spend the rest of their lives never engaging one another in sexual intercourse (assuming that a 6th child will decrease the quality of living for their entire family).

If it is required to avoid having sex with one another, what do we do if the marriage “calls” for it? Consummation, for one thing, has to occur. For our example, though, we don’t want to have kids. Therefore, should we not wed until we are ready to do so?

In the hypothetical family, if the husband and wife want to have sex with one another (to maintain a healthy relationship [which will directly affect their existing children]), which is the greater sin: telling a husband or wife that you cannot have sex anymore, or having sex even though you will actively try to not have a child?

This all assumes you consider the “rhythm method” of protection equal to condoms equal to birth control equal to “pulling out”, which is not a difficult conclusion to realize.

Let me know what you think; thanks for reading!

EDIT: Grammar.

 

[ahs]

My recommendation would be to wait to get married until you are finished with your life goals you’ve set and are ready to start a family. Marriage is for 2 purposes, just as marital sex is, procreation and unification.

 

[carn]

If you assume this

This all assumes you consider the “rhythm method” of protection equal to condoms equal to birth control equal to “pulling out”, which is not a difficult conclusion to realize.

to be true, then your conclusions are correct.

But it is not true.

Abstaining from sex cannot in itself be sinful. Limiting the number of children to a number and a timing a couple can handle without suffering serious problems (medical or psychological issues, expected financial resources) is not sinful either.

Doing something, which is in itself not sinful, to achieve a goal, that is not sinful either, can hardly be a sin.

The catechism explicitely teaches that abstaining from sex is permissable for a couple, if valid reasons exists to currently have not more children.

Regarding your personal situation the problem could be that “working in some other country”, “acquire Ph.D.” might not be valid reasons, either that they are in some way sinful (e.g. first i wanna have fun in life, fun consist of …) or that the reasons are no reason to abstain from having children (e.g. PhD can be done depending on circumstances with children, it just might take longer).

 

[fermat]

The real question is whether or not you are open to life. If you say that you do not want kids, but are open to possibility, then you follow a natural family planning method and see if God bless you with a kid.

Now, if you say that you are not open to children, then your marriage will not be valid.

Is your last sentence trying to say that you hold NFP on the same level as artificial birth control?

 

[marine13]

Going along with what Carn said if you have valid reaons to avoid having children then you may do so but through approved methods only. Instead of the “rythum method”, which can be confusing and largely innaccurate, I would suggest Natural Family Planning (NFP). It still allows you to enjoy the marital embrace, helps to avoid pregnancy (or aid it if you are trying), while fulfilling all of the requirements of the Catholic Church.

 

[Birdpreacher]

I guess it depends on whether you are open even the slightest bit to having Children or not. If not no sex.

 

[Khalid]

This all assumes you consider the “rhythm method” of protection equal to condoms equal to birth control equal to “pulling out”, which is not a difficult conclusion to realize…

It’s a difficult conclusion to realize if you can understand the syllogism, “All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal”.

Cf. Four Causes, final cause, teleology, Aristotelianism, Thomism, natural moral law.

 

[Joe_5859]

I would encourage you to read up on Natural Family Planning. It is not the “rhythm method”.

 

[bobballen_18]

I guess it’s already been said, but - unless you are open to children at all, the marriage will not be valid. You can’t get married while purposefully excluding the possibility of children. You are correct in saying that doing so would be violating the function of sex. Again, it’s one thing if you have valid reasons. I suppose I don’t know the answer to that for sure, although if the only reasons you have are the ones you have stated, I would guess they aren’t really valid.

So, IMHO, I would say put off marriage until 1) you are open to the possibility of raising children, or 2) you have valid reasons to not have children, and ask a priest or a good Catholic who you know would be knowledgeable on the subject if you don’t know.

God bless!

 

[OchsFam]

This all assumes you consider the “rhythm method” of protection equal to condoms equal to birth control equal to “pulling out”, which is not a difficult conclusion to realize.

Just to clarify, the rhythm method is not very good at preventing pregnancy. It is the primary reason that NFP has gotten a bad wrap. People associate the rhythm method with NFP and it is not a fair association.

NFP is better at avoiding pregnancy than condom use and is near chemical contraception in this regard. Pulling out is also not a very effective way to avoid pregnancy either and is explicitly forbidden in the Bible. On top of this, all but NFP are immoral and do nothing to improve marriage and remain faithful to the Catholic Church. Couples who practice NFP have dramatically lower divorce rates and can receive communion on Sunday without having to worry about their eternal soul.

You should be abstaining now and until you are married and when you are married you will have period of about 10 days each month (assuming you are trying to avoid) where you would need to abstain. If you can’t handle this, maybe you should do some self examination as you may be a slave to lust (if you can’t say no, your yes means nothing and you are in fact a slave to that which you cannot say no to). It could also be that you are not marrying for the right reason and probably do not understand the real purpose of sex (hint: it is for unification and procreation, not satisfaction).

I guess it all depends on what your priorities are. A PhD or eternal life. Remember, not all are called to be married, but all are called to be chaste. If you think, I will just do what I want now and come back when I am ready, just remember…you know neither the day nor the hour.

God Bless.

 

[Joe_5859]

I guess it’s already been said, but - unless you are open to children at all, the marriage will not be valid. You can’t get married while purposefully excluding the possibility of children. You are correct in saying that doing so would be violating the function of sex. Again, it’s one thing if you have valid reasons. I suppose I don’t know the answer to that for sure, although if the only reasons you have are the ones you have stated, I would guess they aren’t really valid.

So, IMHO, I would say put off marriage until 1) you are open to the possibility of raising children, or 2) you have valid reasons to not have children, and ask a priest or a good Catholic who you know would be knowledgeable on the subject if you don’t know.

God bless!

Just to clarify, though, the Church does not teach that in order for a marriage to be valid, a couple must actively start trying to have children immediately. A couple can get married and be open to children while still preferring to hold off for a bit.

If a couple plans from the outset on waiting a substantial length of time before they even consider the possibility of children (like 10 years or something), then I would have to wonder if postponing the marriage might not be a better idea.

But regardless, I don’t think it’s up to us to judge whether the OP’s reasons are valid or not. I think it would be good for him to talk to a priest on this matter.

 

[toe]

Wow! Thanks for all of the quick replies! You’ve all already provided valuable insight, and I thank you for that.

I understand that marriage should not be a possibility if we aren’t open to children. That being said, we are open to one day having children together. I suppose the issue is that we’ve found things we’re passionate about; from what we’ve observed, it’s rare for people our age to identify a potential career track that they are excited about both in terms of both future fun to be had and future fulfillment, that is, the fulfillment associated with hard work and good deeds. I am probably not conveying this clearly, but I’m trying to assert that there is a difference between the struggles of balancing fun and moral responsibility and the struggles of balancing passion and moral responsibility, passion referring to the humanitarian kind.

Although, now that I’ve typed it out, I see there is inherent sin in what I just asserted. It is arrogant to say that I can rightfully take the liberty of bypassing procreation for a length of time of my choosing simply because I assume I’ll contribute something worthwhile to society if I do so.

Have I arrived at a logical conclusion?

Khalid: Can you expound on what you said?

A few of you: Can you point me to any resources that explains why NFP is less sinful than a condom? Here is my logic: Sex is, in part, for procreation. NFP offers a way to avoid procreation. Condoms offer a way to avoid procreation.

 

[OchsFam]

A few of you: Can you point me to any resources that explains why NFP is less sinful than a condom? Here is my logic: Sex is, in part, for procreation. NFP offers a way to avoid procreation. Condoms offer a way to avoid procreation.

Here is a good link to explain the difference.

To clarify, NFP is not sinful in and of itself while condom use is. NFP can be used sinfully, similar to alcohol, while condom use for the purpose of preventing conception cannot be used without sin.

God Bless.

 

[marine13]

Toe, there is a great discussion going on right now here on the forum under Apoligetics: Moral Theology, the title “Is the Church Wrong about NFP?” that can answer many if not all of your concerns about NFP.

Cheers!

 

[manualman]

A few of you: Can you point me to any resources that explains why NFP is less sinful than a condom? Here is my logic: Sex is, in part, for procreation. NFP offers a way to avoid procreation. Condoms offer a way to avoid procreation.

I’ll give the extremely short answer to this one. We live in a culture that is desperately asserting that marriage, sex and babies are three different subjects that can be selected from ala carte like a menu. But it’s a rotten lie. These three things, marriage, sex and babies are intertwined aspects of one SINGLE topic: human sexual intimacy.

When a married couple uses a condom to prevent pregnancy, they are attempting to chop off the baby side of human intimacy. As with most sins, the effects are cumulative and, over time, the sexual embrace becomes entirely divorced from the idea of makin’ babies. The couple using NFP to prevent pregnancy, on the other hand, is CONSTANTLY confronted with the reality of sex, marriage and babies being a multifacted single subject. The sex is never divorced from the babies. Furthermore, the method itself forces the couple to examine the “serious reason” for preventing pregnancy. As a single chaste person, you may not know it yet, but the human female is MOST easily aroused during her fertile time. When that time is off limits, it’s rough. And it’s supposed to be because it forces us to confront potentially phony ‘serious reasons.’ It’s God’s lie detector (works on rationalizing too).

If you are both committed catholics and are open to having kids, my vote is go ahead and get married, have normal intimate relations and, if you are convinced you have serious reasons not to be parents yet, use NFP to avoid pregnancy. But ALSO develop your prayer life, sacramental participation and Scripture reading. If your reason for avoiding parenthood is frivolous or selfish, the natural biological mechanisms within you, which NFP retains, combined with your relationship with God will unmask phony reasons in a relatively short period of time.

Don’t think that you must make a 25 year plan for your life and stick to it, no matter what. That’s a recipe for depression and failure. Instead, be open to adapting, listening and new horizons. Some awfully cool stuff happens in life by surprise. Don’t miss out on it by being too rigid.

 

[choose_to_love]

@toe

What does God want of you and your spouse-to-be early in the marriage? Have you been prayerfully considering that? I do not assume you have not, it’s just that it is hard to tell from your post. Many posts about this topic start with “I want” or “we want” and the reader cannot tell if that is internet shorthand for " we have been praying about this for months and here’s what we think the answer is" or “what do you mean by ‘prayerfully discern’” or somewhere in between. The first part of responsible parenthood is discerning to what God is calling you to as a couple.

You should understand what the Church means by responsible parenthood, most succinctly in HV.

I for one do not understand what you mean by the comparisons of the various methods. As previously stated, modern NFP methods are not the rhythm method.

 

[OchsFam]

A few of you: Can you point me to any resources that explains why NFP is less sinful than a condom? Here is my logic: Sex is, in part, for procreation. NFP offers a way to avoid procreation. Condoms offer a way to avoid procreation.

I just thought of a good analogy that Christopher West uses and I believe it is helpful to answer this question.

Is killing grandma because she is old the same as letting her die? The ends are the same, grandma is dead but clearly the means are quite different.

One is natural and in accordance with God’s plan for every human while the other is an artificial distortion of what God is meant to be in control of.

NFP is using the woman’s natural cycle to temporarily avoid pregnancy while artificial contraception is a personal assertion against God’s plan for sex.

God Bless.

 

[toe]

Marine: Thanks for pointing me to that NFP thread - it directly addresses my concerns. I appreciate everyone else summing it up for me.

Don’t think that you must make a 25 year plan for your life and stick to it, no matter what. That’s a recipe for depression and failure. Instead, be open to adapting, listening and new horizons. Some awfully cool stuff happens in life by surprise. Don’t miss out on it by being too rigid.

Your entire reply was enlightening, and this is especially sensible to me. Thank you.

@toe

What does God want of you and your spouse-to-be early in the marriage? Have you been prayerfully considering that? I do not assume you have not, it’s just that it is hard to tell from your post. Many posts about this topic start with “I want” or “we want” and the reader cannot tell if that is internet shorthand for " we have been praying about this for months and here’s what we think the answer is" or “what do you mean by ‘prayerfully discern’” or somewhere in between. The first part of responsible parenthood is discerning to what God is calling you to as a couple.

This is an excellent point – perhaps we have been too focused on what seems right to us without the assistance of prayer. Although this topic hasn’t been excluded from our prayers, I won’t deny that we’ve thought about it with each other more than we have kneeling by the bedside.

 

[Leegal]

Hello all,

My girlfriend and I had an interesting conversation last night on which we’d like to get additional perspectives. We’re both 21, Catholic, and attending university.

If we decide to get married but we do not want children, are we to abstain from having sex? We reached the conclusion of “Yes”.

We’ve read that sexual intercourse exists for us to achieve a duality: bearing children and marital unity. With that, it should be assumed that one without the other is abusing the functional nature of sex.

We’d like to be married sometime after obtaining our undergraduate degrees, but there are specific things in life we want to do together afterwards. Next year, we intend to obtain our CETL certifications so that we may teach English abroad for awhile. Afterward, I would very much like to pursue my M.D. and she a Ph.D.

We know ourselves quite well, and we simply don’t know how plausible it is for us to successfully avoid sex all those years. This problem, though, brings up a broader issue: if a man and woman, married, can only afford to have, say, 5 children, are they only to have sex until they have their 5th child? After he or she is born, are they to spend the rest of their lives never engaging one another in sexual intercourse (assuming that a 6th child will decrease the quality of living for their entire family).

If it is required to avoid having sex with one another, what do we do if the marriage “calls” for it? Consummation, for one thing, has to occur. For our example, though, we don’t want to have kids. Therefore, should we not wed until we are ready to do so?

In the hypothetical family, if the husband and wife want to have sex with one another (to maintain a healthy relationship [which will directly affect their existing children]), which is the greater sin: telling a husband or wife that you cannot have sex anymore, or having sex even though you will actively try to not have a child?

This all assumes you consider the “rhythm method” of protection equal to condoms equal to birth control equal to “pulling out”, which is not a difficult conclusion to realize.

Let me know what you think; thanks for reading!

EDIT: Grammar.

You have many things that you both want to do and you do not seem to be prepared for both the committment of marriage and the fact that sex may lead to a baby no matter how hard you try to avoid it. Nothing is guaranteed. If you are not prepared for that eventuality, I would suggest waiting until you are ready.

I have to add this “pulling out” is against the teachings of the Church." I’ve seen this mentioned several times and I realize that so many think that “pulling out” is an acceptable form of birth control. It is not. Not by the Church, nor by doctors. Actually, “pulling out” can lead to an inability to complete the act in the way God intended it to completed – in side the woman. It’s use can then condition your brain to be unable to complete the act in any other way but by pulling out – habit so to speak. And it’s a sin.

 

[toe]

I have to add this “pulling out” is against the teachings of the Church." I’ve seen this mentioned several times and I realize that so many think that “pulling out” is an acceptable form of birth control. It is not. Not by the Church, nor by doctors. Actually, “pulling out” can lead to an inability to complete the act in the way God intended it to completed – in side the woman. It’s use can then condition your brain to be unable to complete the act in any other way but by pulling out – habit so to speak. And it’s a sin.

I agree with you. I made a poor attempt to express that I equate “pulling out” with condoms, birth control pills, and NFP (NFP when the reason we don’t want to have kids is that we want to pursue our degrees).