Sex before Marriage believers?

[quiet52]

I encourage you to make an appointment with your pastor, to discuss what you have written in this thread and to talk about preparing for the sacrament of Confirmation.

When you are confirmed, you would renew your baptismal promises by rejecting sin and making a profession of faith. If you think it’s your call to state what is sin and what isn’t, then you’re proclaiming yourself to be your own god. If you proclaim that you believe in the holy Catholic Church, but reject what she teaches, then you would be lying during your profession of faith.

Then, during the Rite of Confirmation, the priest or bishop asks the entire congregation to pray for the Confirmation candidates, that God our Father will pour out the Holy Spirit on them “to strengthen them with His gifts and anoint them to be more like Christ, the Son of God.”

If you consciously plan to decide on your own which sins are not really sin, and/or to reject some of the Church’s teachings, do you really think you’ll be cooperating with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in order to be more like Christ?

I hope that you’ll be open to learning about and better understanding the treasures of the Catholic faith. The most important part of our faith journeys is walking in union with Jesus. He never gives up on us, and is always drawing our hearts to His. One of my prayers for you as I type this is that you will yearn for His love, ache with love for Him, and become a fervent disciple, reflecting His love to others.​

Why are the divorce rates so high for couples who lived together before marriage?
chastity.com/chastity-qa/dating/shacking-up/why-are-divorce-rates-so-high

The desire to “test drive” a marriage demonstrates a lack of understanding regarding the essence of marriage, and what makes a marriage work. For one, it’s impossible to try out something that is permanent. Cohabiting also shows a real lack of faith in one’s love for the other. In one sense the couple is saying that they desire intimacy, but on the other hand they want to leave a way out if the partner does not measure up. This sows seeds of doubt and distrust from the start. Some couples seem to be under the impression that a good relationship will not have disappointments. When they marry and the disappointments come, they often bail out.

Living Together Before Marriage** || First Things First**firstthings.org/what-you-should-know-about-living-together​

Pope Francis speaks about lukewarm Christians
news.va/en/news/pope-francis-speaks-about-lukewarm-christians

Cafeteria Catholicism
catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=4197

 

[quiet52]

Please don’t take this the wrong way but based on your faith and belief, do you believe everything the Church teaches is correct no matter what? Isn’t that kind of like blind obedience where we know nothing else so we’re compelled to believe what we are told and ask no questions?

I have no doubts about God and I feel the Church has great logic and reason but what about our personal feelings? Can our own feelings never come under consideration because we’re only to follow what God and others lay before us?

And thank you very much for your reply!

I believe that the Church of our Lord teaches without error. Unfortunately, there are individual clergy members and lay leaders who sometimes mislead the faithful, but when they do so, they are not speaking for the Church.

With regard to your comment about blind obedience – The ancient Jews fully understood that part of proclaiming “faith” is being obedient to God. God is the Master Architect of the universe. True freedom is obeying God’s law. The word “blind” is a poor description of the obedience God wants from us. There is no need for you or anyone to remain blind in this modern world. No one is “compelling” you to believe without asking questions. Please ask them. There are so many resources available to help us to truly understand the faith, so that we can embrace it without blindness. An important resource is your own pastor.

Our faith is not emotion-based by the way. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Truth is absolute – like 2+2=4. With regard to any particular moral teaching, Catholics have an obligation to get educated on what is true, according to Jesus and His Church.

When we allow emotions, comfort, personal preferences, and “me, me, me” to dictate to us what is truth, then that makes truth relative, rather than absolute. We make ourselves the architects of how to live, and we negate God’s own plan for mankind.

Hebrews 11:1-3
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. Because of it the ancients were well attested. By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one Body, one Spirit, just as one hope is the goal of your calling by God. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, over all, through all and within all.

Philippians 2:2
Be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing.

Colossians 3:15
The peace into which you were called in one body.

St. Cyprian (c. 250 A.D.)
“God is one and Christ in one, and one is His Church, and the faith is one, and His people welded together by the glue of concord into a solid unity of body. Unity cannot be rent asunder, nor can the one body of the Church, through the division of its structure, be divided into separate pieces.” (On the Unity of the Church, 23)

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Well if anything… You have reams of information to read why you should not enjoy some worldly physical pleasure before marriage… You have some tough choices…
Ask people that have been married for decades as to what they think’
…

 

[JRKH]

I believe in God and love being a Catholic. But I’m not a virgin and not married. And I don’t really believe in waiting. I think sex is an important part of a relationship- not the most important, granted. But important. And I feel like that should be tried out before marriage. I mean what happens if you don’t know what it’s like sexually with someone and get married and you don’t enjoy it with them? It could lead to divorce. And I’m pretty sure God doesn’t smile about divorce either.

I’m only 18 but I’m trying to create an understanding for myself. I haven’t confirmed, but I want to. But I’m also worried I won’t feel fully Catholic if I don’t believe in EVERYTHING the Catholic Church believes in. I mean shouldn’t I have a choice too? Is there anyone else who feels this way?

And if you’re going to answer in a pro-sex after marriage way, please answer kindly. I will respect all answers as long as they respect my own feelings.

Thanks

I can sympathize with this viewpoint - not the least because I had premarital sex with both of the women I eventually married. Also because I agree that sex is a very important aspect of the marriage relationship.

Now that said…I think that there is something very important for you to consider.
People change.
The fact that sex with a person is good now does not mean it will be good later.
What do the financial salespeople say? - past performance is no guarantee of future profits…
The same thing is true in marriage.

There are things that are far more important to a good relationship than whether you initially enjoy the sex.

A truly loving couple will grow into a truly good - even great - sex life. And when things change (and they will) that love will carry them through the changes, the ups, the downs the times of great passion and the times when one or the other has no energy (or is physically unable) to have sexual relations.

It is the love - the self sacrificing love - that the couple has for each other that makes the difference. Virgin or experienced, if the couple has this kind of love, then the desire to give the other person pleasure, to be gentle, comfortable, protective, passionate, and all things good, will drive their play, their discoveries of each other and ultimately they will enjoy the very best sex they could ever ask for.

So - I think that if you really consider what you are looking for in a spouse…
the kind of love that makes a whole life together (even if it were without sex at all) a joyful prospect -
the kind of love that looks at what it can give with little thought to what it gets -
the kind of love that sacrifices, one for the other -
the kind of love that seeks only the highest good of the other person -

Find this kind of love - and everything else will fall into place whether you’ve tried out the sex before marriage or not…

Peace
James

 

[Wallis_Reid]

So, how many men are you going to let try you out sexually? … Please think about this and realize you are not something to be “tried out” in such an intimate way.

I think Bruised Reed has misunderstood Madelayna. She is saying that she wants to try out sex with a possible future husband, not that she wants that person to try her out. She is apprehensive about finding herself permanently trapped in a sexually-unsatisfying relationship. Quite a legitimate concern!

To be sure, the Church condemns sex before marriage, but this proscription is often not very helpful to a young Catholic because life decisions in this area involve weighing the pros and cons of various options against one another. More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life.

To be sure, premarital sex, infidelity and divorce are all sins, but which is the worst? For the Church, both murder and masturbation are mortal sins, but surely the former is worse than the latter. Madelayna sees the complexity of the moral choices before her and realizes that absolute moral principles that leave no room for human judgment are not helpful.
Wallis Reid

 

[MaryT777]

I can imagine us being married, but we’re so young. I’m only 18. I haven’t even gone away to college yet. My parents got married at 30 and I think they’d be shocked and even horrified if I wanted to get married before 25.

Do you think they agree with your thoughts it’s ok to try out a guy and have sex before marriage? You could date a lot of guys before the age of 30 you know; and what about STD’s? Do you worry about that?

Mary.

 

[JRKH]

I think Bruised Reed has misunderstood Madelayna. She is saying that she wants to try out sex with a possible future husband, not that she wants that person to try her out. She is apprehensive about finding herself permanently trapped in a sexually-unsatisfying relationship. Quite a legitimate concern!

To be sure, the Church condemns sex before marriage, but this proscription is often not very helpful to a young Catholic because life decisions in this area involve weighing the pros and cons of various options against one another. **More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life. **

To be sure, premarital sex, infidelity and divorce are all sins, but which is the worst? For the Church, both murder and masturbation are mortal sins, but surely the former is worse than the latter. Madelayna sees the complexity of the moral choices before her and realizes that absolute moral principles that leave no room for human judgment are not helpful.
Wallis Reid

Some good thoughts here…
However - in regards to the bolded above - Is there a demonstrable correlation between sex and divorce? Specifically in the matter of choosing to or refraining from sex before marriage - and subsequent divorce rates? There would be a large number of variables involved in this…

As to the larger matter of what is a “worse” mortal sin…that is like saying it is better to be shot through the heart with a .22 caliber bullet than with a .50 caliber bullet. Mortal is mortal.

Something I have not seen addressed (though maybe it has been) is the problem of additional sin arising from the primary sin. If a person chooses to have premarital sex as part of the discernment process for marriage - the matter of possible pregnancy comes up. So does the single Catholic girl choose to employ NFP techniques here or does she take the more expedient course of ABC…
Since she is choosing to commit one sin…why prevents her from committing the second grave sin based on the same or similar reasoning that has caused her to commit the first grave sin.

So - when we follow your advice to look into church teaching to determine “which is worse”…this idea needs to be taken into account as well…One sin can easily bring about - or even necessitate - other sins.

Peace
James

 

[manualman]

Well, I wouldn’t just sleep with anyone. I’ve only had sex with one person and I do love him. He’s the first person I’ve only had such strong feelings about. And we had sex after two years of being together. I don’t want it to sound like a guy or I am a pair of jeans we’re “trying out” for sex but to see how we feel about each other sexually. But isn’t that the same exact thing as dating? Are we not “trying out” potential spouses? Are we not engaging special and strong feelings about another person emotionally just as I was physically?

I’m trying to understand, I really am. Thanks for the reply.

I suggest reading Christopher West’s book “Good News About Sex & Marriage.” It’s an introductory level book written in plain language, not theological lingo. It’s not high level scholarship (for which some ivory tower types disparage it’s simplified explanations), but it’s a HUGE eye opener for us regular folk who have had our understanding of sexuality shaped by the culture we live in.

It’s normal for people to NOT regret premarital sex while in the relationship. It DOES make you feel closer and more bonded to your partner, that’s the whole POINT of sexuality. The problem is that you are jumping the gun and using a gift that God gave you for cementing and holding together a PERMANENT relationship with a guy that may not by your lifelong mate. Even worse, that cement is now severely interfering with your ability to discern if he IS the right fellow to marry and spend your life with. The sexual union you enjoy strongly leads you to believe that he’s IT, while shouting down your higher cognitive observations and judgements about him.

Worse, if it turns out he is not marriage material, the union you enjoyed with him will weaken your capacity for sexual union to cement a lifelong union with your actual husband. The more it’s spread around, the less power it yields within marriage. This isn’t supposition, but the fruit of millennia of human experience! Don’t blow it off for a crazy libertine philosophy invented less than 70 years ago (in a society that not incidentally has fewer and fewer intact permanent marriages, if you haven’t noticed!). The damage is cumulative and your wounds can be healed, but it will do you no good to go out and add more scar tissue to your soul.

Sorry if this sounds judgemental. It’s really not since I’m as susceptible to such temptations as you are. Rather it’s the reaction of a person who sees another person tying themselves to live railroad tracks. Don’t do it!

 

[freiabereinsam]

A few thoughts here: first of all, the choice here is not between “try before you buy and have a sexually satisfying marriage” and “enter marriage in the dark and end up divorced”. That is a false dichotomy, and the research that has been done shows that the conventional wisdom is false–people who engage in sex before marriage are more likely to divorce, even if they end up having sex only with the person they end up marrying. It is not quite certain why this is so–I suppose that several reasons are involved here. Most people do not regret waiting until marriage; “I wish I had tried them out before marriage” is pretty uncommon, and “I wish I had slept with other people before them to gain experience” is even more uncommon (and also very rude!). On the other hand, many people do regret not waiting.

Also, the point made in an early reply here is worth considering. This is something usually leveled at men, but it goes both ways really. When you “test” someone, remember that they, too, may have been tested by previous partners. Not only that, but they are testing you, too! What if your prospective spouse decides that you aren’t that good? The testing is never one-sided. We all know about the car analogy, but you don’t get to test-drive a new car every single time, and the new “cars” in this scenario don’t just keep rolling off the assembly line.

Finally, you must remember that it (sex outside of marriage, and with someone who is not your spouse) is a sin, even if you don’t feel that it’s a big deal (which I can understand even if I do not agree with that).

 

[manualman]

…More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life.

The church doesn’t need to provide such guidance since social science data already conclusively demonstrates that those who conscienciously refrain from premarital sex before marriage have FAR lower rates of divorce and irreconcilable marital conflicts than those who had sex with others before marrying.

The idea that having sex with dating partners leads to fewer divorces since it avoids marriages of “sexually incompatible” people is silly. Seeing through the mirage of infatuation during dating is hard enough when you’re chaste. Trying to see through it while sleeping together simply isn’t going to happen. You’ll be choosing a spouse by less reliable methods than throwing darts at a board. Today’s divorce rates show that pretty clearly.

 

[bben15]

You want to be “tried-out” before marriage? You are treating your sexuality like merchandise.

Sex within marriage isn’t about how good it will feel. It is about procreating children and becoming closer to your spouse.

The Church teaches that fornicating is a mortal sin. This is because almost always, fornication is done for lust. If the partners wish to procreate children, then their love for each other must be ratified through marriage, so they will forever be united.

 

[Madelayna]

I think Bruised Reed has misunderstood Madelayna. She is saying that she wants to try out sex with a possible future husband, not that she wants that person to try her out. She is apprehensive about finding herself permanently trapped in a sexually-unsatisfying relationship. Quite a legitimate concern!

To be sure, the Church condemns sex before marriage, but this proscription is often not very helpful to a young Catholic because life decisions in this area involve weighing the pros and cons of various options against one another. More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life.

To be sure, premarital sex, infidelity and divorce are all sins, but which is the worst? For the Church, both murder and masturbation are mortal sins, but surely the former is worse than the latter. Madelayna sees the complexity of the moral choices before her and realizes that absolute moral principles that leave no room for human judgment are not helpful.
Wallis Reid

Thanks Wallis. I do kind of feel like some of the answers aren’t taking into account my age. I think the younger you are and the less knowledge of Catholicism you have, makes it harder to make the right choices in the Catholic Church’s eyes. And I’m glad someone recognizes my concerns about “good sex” in a marriage. It seemed that people were pretty much saying “find the one you’ll promise to live with, wait, and if sex isn’t good then deal with it” or “sex will always be good with the one you’re suppose to be with.”

I guess infidelity would be worse and that’s definitely not what I’d want. This is all very complex. It’s not like picking an ice cream flavor, this is a life choice. I want to make the right decision but hearing “Be Catholic, or not” isn’t the most helpful. But so many of you are really helping me, so thank you very much!

And thank you Wallis. You’ve made me realize this isn’t just black and white.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Dear one, you obviously love Jesus and His Church but now it is time to TRUST Them. Being Catholic is not being a robot but it does mean trusting what God teaches through His infallible Church. Please do not think the Church is down on sex in its proper context but she has 2000 years of experience in her teachings. Please know this, and I tell you this out of deepest christian love every time you fornicate with your boyfriend you say to Jesus, “I don’t trust You. I don’t trust that the Church you set up out of love for me is correct in this regard.” Oh sweety, it wounds His Sacred Heart so much and drives away the Holy Spirit Who is the life of your soul. If you should die without receiving back His Grace you will be lost forever! Is that a chance you are willing to take? Again, I say this in all charity. God bless you!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I think Bruised Reed has misunderstood Madelayna. She is saying that she wants to try out sex with a possible future husband, not that she wants that person to try her out. She is apprehensive about finding herself permanently trapped in a sexually-unsatisfying relationship. Quite a legitimate concern!

I didn’t misunderstand. But I did ask a an unexpected question to encourage her to think about what she was saying. My last sentence answers more directly what she asked and that is that no on deserves to be used or lied to. It’s also why I made the clockwork comments; virgins will have to learn a few things as they go and sex might not result in simultaneous orgasms and somehow this is being used a reason for premarital sex.

To be sure, the Church condemns sex before marriage, but this proscription is often not very helpful to a young Catholic because life decisions in this area involve weighing the pros and cons of various options against one another. More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life.

It was just one question to jump start the conversation and bump the thread. Sometimes people start a thread and never post again and I wanted to see if she was really interested in an answer before I invested a ton of time in a post (3 of my posts have been eaten just today so I’m about done ).

Those that followed offered information on church teaching and some other practical reasons.

To be sure, premarital sex, infidelity and divorce are all sins, but which is the worst? For the Church, both murder and masturbation are mortal sins, but surely the former is worse than the latter. Madelayna sees the complexity of the moral choices before her and realizes that absolute moral principles that leave no room for human judgment are not helpful.
Wallis Reid

I hope you read through the responses and read all the replies. Perhaps you will see that a lot of perspectives were offered and they are probably the approach that resonated best with that poster.

 

[thewanderer]

The church doesn’t need to provide such guidance since social science data already conclusively demonstrates that those who conscienciously refrain from premarital sex before marriage have FAR lower rates of divorce and irreconcilable marital conflicts than those who had sex with others before marrying.

The idea that having sex with dating partners leads to fewer divorces since it avoids marriages of “sexually incompatible” people is silly. Seeing through the mirage of infatuation during dating is hard enough when you’re chaste. Trying to see through it while sleeping together simply isn’t going to happen. You’ll be choosing a spouse by less reliable methods than throwing darts at a board. Today’s divorce rates show that pretty clearly.

This is so very important to realize. The thinking that it is important to try each other out sexually, while it can seem to make sense, is unfortunately flawed, and it is not just Church teaching which shows us that, but empirical science. If you want to have a better chance of your marriage succeeding then you want to limit sexual activity outside of marriage as much as possible. The less you engage in sexual activity outside of marriage the greater the chance is that your marriage will succeed.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Dear one, you obviously love Jesus and His Church but now it is time to TRUST Them. Being Catholic is not being a robot but it does mean trusting what God teaches through His infallible Church. Please do not think the Church is down on sex in its proper context but she has 2000 years of experience in her teachings. Please know this, and I tell you this out of deepest christian love every time you fornicate with your boyfriend you say to Jesus, “I don’t trust You. I don’t trust that the Church you set up out of love for me is correct in this regard.” Oh sweety, it wounds His Sacred Heart so much and drives away the Holy Spirit Who is the life of your soul. If you should die without receiving back His Grace you will be lost forever! Is that a chance you are willing to take? Again, I say this in all charity. God bless you!

Amen. And as a relatively young married man, I can say that sex within marriage with a spouse you love and have vowed to be with before God is much more satisfying than any fleeting sexual pleasure we can find outside of marriage.

Too often, society confuses pleasure with happiness. Pleasure* is not *the same thing as happiness. Sexual intimacy before marriage may give you the former, but it cannot give you the latter.

 

[BRZ]

I think Bruised Reed has misunderstood Madelayna. She is saying that she wants to try out sex with a possible future husband, not that she wants that person to try her out. She is apprehensive about finding herself permanently trapped in a sexually-unsatisfying relationship. Quite a legitimate concern!

To be sure, the Church condemns sex before marriage, but this proscription is often not very helpful to a young Catholic because life decisions in this area involve weighing the pros and cons of various options against one another. More helpful to Madelayna would be instruction from the Church as to which is worse/better: to remain a virgin until marriage but possibly divorcing or being unfaithful later on; or experiencing sexual relationships before marriage but then remaining faithful in a single marriage throughout her life.

To be sure, premarital sex, infidelity and divorce are all sins, but which is the worst? For the Church, both murder and masturbation are mortal sins, but surely the former is worse than the latter. Madelayna sees the complexity of the moral choices before her and realizes that absolute moral principles that leave no room for human judgment are not helpful.
Wallis Reid

This is extremely flawed logic. It does not matter which mortal sin is “worse”. Committing a mortal sin is spiritually cutting yourself off from God. There is no hierarchy for Mortal sins. The only differences in sins are whether they are venial or Mortal. Mortal sins always cut you off spiritually from God and therefore always will lead to Hell if unrepentant. Notice I say, Mortal and not Grave. A sin can be grave but not necessarily Mortal, there are mitigating situations but if you know that something is wrong, and plan to do it anyway and it is Grave, then it is a Mortal sin. Whether or not there are different levels of Hell is unimportant, Hell is Hell and I am pretty sure you don’t want to go there.

 

[nodito]

I don’t really see the risk in waiting until marriage. I think “sexual incompatability” within marriage is a myth, especially if you date for any length of time and choose your spouse wisely.

My husband and I dated for four years and were both virgins when we were married. I knew before we were married that we were sexually attracted to each other, that I enjoyed kissing him, that he was patient and loving, and that he would try hard to make me happy in bed and out. That’s really all you need. It takes a while to figure out the logistics in marriage, but you have your whole married life to practice. It’s been five years since we were married and I wouldn’t change a thing.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I believe in God and love being a Catholic. But I’m not a virgin and not married. And I don’t really believe in waiting. I think sex is an important part of a relationship- not the most important, granted. But important. And I feel like that should be tried out before marriage. I mean what happens if you don’t know what it’s like sexually with someone and get married and you don’t enjoy it with them? It could lead to divorce. And I’m pretty sure God doesn’t smile about divorce either.

Well, take it from someone that’s been married twice and had sex before marriage. “Trying someone out” before marriage will not in any way give you an indication if your marriage will be successful, so you might as well toss that thought right out of your head.

 

[MaryT777]

Well, take it from someone that’s been married twice and had sex before marriage. “Trying someone out” before marriage will not in any way give you an indication if your marriage will be successful, so you might as well toss that thought right out of your head.

Great point.