Sex Question of an engaged man

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Hello! I am a young man who is excited to be getting married in May to the love of my life. We are both Roman Catholic and our faith is the biggest things in our life. The problem is the church’s teaching on what is allowed and what is not was never really brought up in our household. It is somewhat sad, I even go to a Catholic college and I can’t find answers. To be honest before I post I do not want anyone to think that I am focused on the pleasure of the conjugal act. I am more looking forward to be able to just sleep with my future wife each night and be close. But at the same time as we get closer this is more on our mind.

So my question is what is allowed? I have seen some other questions on the forum but these somewhat confused me. I know masturbation is a grave sin and i understand and agree with those reasons but with my future wife is it wrong to use things such as vibrators before or after to help her climax? I know it is harder for women to get to that point (or so I have heard ha I am still a virgin) so is that allowed? Also what about oral sex?

THese in and of themselves when aimed just at the pleasure are obviously morally wrong but if they lead to the conjugal act is that ok? On the other post It also said it was not wrong to help your wife reach an orgasm if you have already and cannot continue. It said it was ok to use your hand or even a vibrator to get her to that point. Now to me that does not seem ok in any sense. Can someone explain this or give me references? I ask to have some sort of reference to back it up. I do not wish to hear opinions but teachings. Thank you so much for your help and God Bless.
 
Pretty much

Any time
No Masturbation

Before Marriage
Kissing = Allowed
All else = Disallowed

During Marriage
Any sexual “act” is allowed as foreplay so to speak
BUT in the end the male must finish inside of the female (and I don’t mean mouth/butt).
Women have more options for achieving orgasm, however, cannot do so with no intention of completing the full act (i.e., disconnected from intercourse, see the 2nd point). Timing technically does not matter.
No contraception is allowed
The woman is not required to have an orgasm, but it is the man’s duty to do his best to make this happen.

Anyway, that’s the summary version of it. Although some people disagree with the anything goes as long as he puts his good stuff in her good stuff (I’ve seen many long threads on this forum about that topic), but in a extremely summarized form, that’s what I’ve gathered in my time researching it.
 
Basically, nothing outside of marriage, coitus inside of marriage. No place is off limits to kiss, but no orgasms apart from coitus (thus no vibrators or oral sex that ends in climax). And no contraception, including the pill. Your wife can use NFP as long as there are good reasons (not grave as some will tell you) to do so, which you can determine with the help of a good priest.
 
From what I’ve gathered, having oral/hand (or whatever else) sex where the woman has an orgasm is allowable if she cannot achieve orgasm from intercourse. For the man that is off limits.
 
bustedhalo.com/features/what-does-the-church-teach-about-oral-sex
Getting Specific
Two books that offer specific directions about the Catholic Church’s teaching on oral sex are Christopher West’s Good News about Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions about Catholic Teaching (Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Publications, 2000) and Vincent Genovesi’s In Pursuit of Love: Catholic Morality and Human Sexuality (Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1996).
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Christopher West is a popularizer of the “Theology of the Body” based on Pope John Paul II’s book Love and Responsibility. He has written several books and articles on the subject, and in Good News About Sex , which is a practical summary of this theology, West offers some instances in which oral stimulation (stimulating genitals but not to the point of ejaculation) is perhaps acceptable within marriage:
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Foreplay: If it is used in the act of foreplay that leads to sexual intercourse where the male climaxes into the female, then oral stimulation is certainly permissible for a couple to engage in within marriage.
The Big O: If a man was able to orgasm during sexual intercourse but his wife did not, he may bring his wife to orgasm after intercourse in whatever way he chooses (manual or oral stimulation). West writes, “Since it’s the male orgasm that’s inherently linked with the possibility of new life, the husband must never intentionally ejaculate outside of his wife’s vagina. Since the female orgasm, however, isn’t necessarily linked to the possibility of conception, so long as it takes place within the overall context of an act of intercourse, it need not, morally speaking, be during actual penetration.”
No substitutions, please: Oral sex or stimulation can never be used as a replacement for sexual intercourse, but oral stimulation can be used to lead a couple to vaginal intercourse. Pope Benedict also points couples towards discovering love within sex instead of settling for substitutions for the real thing, stating: “No mechanical technique can substitute the act of love that two married people exchange as a sign of a greater mystery.”
Men: No sex 4u: The reverse, however, is prohibited. A man’s orgasm is always tied to his fertility so therefore the church states that oral sex that would end with a male orgasm outside of sexual intercourse is not permissible.
Intimacy Over Arousal: Not every single sexual act, per se, need be procreative, but within a “sexual session,” if you will, there needs to be openness to procreative activity. So there can certainly be oral stimulation throughout sexual activity within marriage, but if one is using oral sex simply to avoid pregnancy yet achieve orgasms, then one is limiting their sexual union to merely give arousal rather than intimacy.
Premature ejaculation?: For something to be sinful there needs to be both intent and full knowledge of that intention to do evil. If one were to get very turned on and orgasm prematurely, that indeed is not a sinful act. Accidents happen. One needs to be mindful of their intention to sin.
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So pretty much what you guys are saying is that if we meet in the conjugal act and I climax before my future wife and I cannot do so for her within the act. I can manually help her (through oral, hand, vibrator etc…) to help her come to climax as well since it is still within the conjugal act?
 
Totentanzen said:
So pretty much what you guys are saying is that if we meet in the conjugal act and I climax before my future wife and I cannot do so for her within the act. I can manually help her (through oral, hand, vibrator etc…) to help her come to climax as well since it is still within the conjugal act?
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My understanding is that once the act is over, it’s over and any subsequent acts to simulate your spouse would be impermissible.
 
Now see thats what I thought but everyone says different
 
Totentanzen said:
So pretty much what you guys are saying is that if we meet in the conjugal act and I climax before my future wife and I cannot do so for her within the act. I can manually help her (through oral, hand, vibrator etc…) to help her come to climax as well since it is still within the conjugal act?
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As long as the act is finished in her then yes( not mouth or butt)
 
Totentanzen said:
Now see thats what I thought but everyone says different
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You won’t find any official teaching/doctrine on this point, only opinion. You will need to work through those opinions for yourself.

I personally find most of what West writes to be well reasoned and consistent with the basic principles established by the Church, as well as some more subtle points elaborated on by JPII. I don’t agree with everything he says, or necessarily the way he expresses some things, while others disagree vehemently with West on most points. But there’s no Vatican handbook for Catholic couples in the bedroom, so you’ve just got to explore the opinions offered.
 
Totentanzen said:
Hello! I am a young man who is excited to be getting married in May to the love of my life. We are both Roman Catholic and our faith is the biggest things in our life. The problem is the church’s teaching on what is allowed and what is not was never really brought up in our household. It is somewhat sad, I even go to a Catholic college and I can’t find answers. To be honest before I post I do not want anyone to think that I am focused on the pleasure of the conjugal act. I am more looking forward to be able to just sleep with my future wife each night and be close. But at the same time as we get closer this is more on our mind.

So my question is what is allowed? I have seen some other questions on the forum but these somewhat confused me. I know masturbation is a grave sin and i understand and agree with those reasons but with my future wife is it wrong to use things such as vibrators before or after to help her climax? I know it is harder for women to get to that point (or so I have heard ha I am still a virgin) so is that allowed? Also what about oral sex?

THese in and of themselves when aimed just at the pleasure are obviously morally wrong but if they lead to the conjugal act is that ok? On the other post It also said it was not wrong to help your wife reach an orgasm if you have already and cannot continue. It said it was ok to use your hand or even a vibrator to get her to that point. Now to me that does not seem ok in any sense. Can someone explain this or give me references? I ask to have some sort of reference to back it up. I do not wish to hear opinions but teachings. Thank you so much for your help and God Bless.
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It doesn’t surprise me you can’t find answers on this, but it’s good that you are asking the questions and understand that being married isn’t a permission slip for a sexual free-for-all.

A good place to start on these questions is “Theology of the Body”.

However, I would check with a priest, but my guess is that a lot of what you say (with all the caveats) is allowed as long as you have the right intention to renew your vows (ie you’re not using your wife a lust toy) and the man “finishes” in the woman as someone else said.

The only thing I would add is that you’ll want to be prudent so as the woman doesn’t get too tired with all of the foreplay and it leads to incomplete intercourse.
 
It’s a subject rarely spoken about due to obvious reasons, I had heard years ago there was only one acceptable “position” but as you can see from this thread already none of us really have a clue.

It’s a poorly documented area, one in which people generally do not wish to intrude. Provided it is with your spouse and you yourself reach the climax within your wife’s vagina I can see no conflict with church teaching. Acts of sodomy (yes, heterosexual couples can do these too) within heterosexual relationships are again poorly documented.

If she had yet to reach her’s if you finish before her I cannot see any fault if you choose to assist her in achieving her highlight of the event. Potentially in reverse too if willing of course.
 
We might also want to remember why, as Catholics, we have sex. There are two reasons.
  1. Procreation - we get to play a part in bringing a new person (with an immortal soul) into existence.
  2. Renewing our Marital Covenant - we offer each other ourselves in a selfless act of total giving.
For Catholics, pleasure is not a reason to have sex. It’s nice, but it isn’t the reason to have sex. I’d recommend worrying less about who climaxed and how can you get the other person to climax and what can you use on your wife to make sure she “finishes” and concentrate more on using sex for the above two reasons.
 
PietroPaolo said:
For Catholics, pleasure is not a reason to have sex.
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Yes it is!

From the Catechism (my bolding):
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
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The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
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As long as the other reasons (procreative, unitive) are not subverted, couples can have sex for the specific purpose of seeking and sharing pleasure, which is part of the unitive purpose anyway. Sex that is not fun is not likely to be very unitive.
 
I recommend the book, “Holy Sex!” if you are looking for the answers to your questions. I does a really good job of explaining the teachings of the Church on sexuality and why the Church teaches what it does. It isn’t at all difficult to read.
 
Allegra said:
I recommend the book, “Holy Sex!” if you are looking for the answers to your questions. I does a really good job of explaining the teachings of the Church on sexuality and why the Church teaches what it does. It isn’t at all difficult to read.
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I second this recommendation. It doesn’t avoid the “nitty gritty” but it’s also very good on the theology aspect. It definitely made me appreciate sex more for what it is and what it signifies.
 
Totentanzen said:
So pretty much what you guys are saying is that if we meet in the conjugal act and I climax before my future wife and I cannot do so for her within the act. I can manually help her (through oral, hand, vibrator etc…) to help her come to climax as well since it is still within the conjugal act?
Click to expand...
Yes.

There really ought to be a “sticky” on this topic. No pun intended.
 
PietroPaolo said:
For Catholics, pleasure is not a reason to have sex. It’s nice, but it isn’t the reason to have sex. I’d recommend worrying less about who climaxed and how can you get the other person to climax and what can you use on your wife to make sure she “finishes” and concentrate more on using sex for the above two reasons.
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Pleasure is absolutely one of the reasons why married couples should and do have sex. We aren’t robots.
It’s the third reason why we should have sex. It’s an integral part of the act itself.

I’ll be honest…if sex wasn’t pleasurable and wasn’t fun…there would be little reason for me to want to engage in it after a long and busy day of having two small children crawling all over me.

It’s certainly not the only reason to engage in sex…but it definitely is a good reason to do so. It’s fun and it feels good.

To the OP…I could go on and on about what I understand the Church teaches about sex. But, I’ll let some decent books do the talking instead.

“Holy Sex” is very good.
“Theology of the Body” should be mandatory for all couples looking to get married…IMHO.

My favorite is “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”

Check these books out…they will answer a lot of questions.

My only advice…take care of your wife’s needs in the bedroom. It’s exceedingly difficult for a woman to have an orgasm through intercourse alone.
Especially for a woman who is brand new to intercourse.

It’s not impossible but for some women…having an orgasm through intercourse alone either happens once in a blue moon after years of practice…or never happens.

Be patient with her and loving. Keep the door open to other possibilities within the marital act so she can experience an orgasm. Try different things and ask her exactly what feels good.
Communication is KEY when it comes to her orgasm. She needs to TELL you what feels good and what doesn’t and you need to LISTEN.

I can’t stress that enough.

Its gets very frustrating very quickly when a woman sees that she can satisfy her husband every time she has sex but he isn’t willing to figure out how to return the favor. Or she never opens her mouth to tell him what he did right or what he did wrong.
 
PietroPaolo said:
My understanding is that once the act is over, it’s over and any subsequent acts to simulate your spouse would be impermissible.
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There is no specific timeline for things. If the couple started straight with intercourse but let’s say, the wife did not climax, it is the loving thing for the husband’s to make sure she does afterward and it would be within the context of the conjugal act.

It’s not game over when the man ejaculates.
 
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