Sex scandal hits Atlanta-area megachurch

[O.S.Luke]

I still don’t get why this thread is up.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I still don’t get why this thread is up.

It was moved here so people can be aware of the problem.

 

[Harpazo]

It was moved here so people can be aware of the problem.

I’m glad you showed this. People fail to realize that sex-abuse problems exist in many groups. My mother and father (Protestants) the other night blasted the Church for having pedophiliac priests, and things of that nature. I tried explaining that the media dwells on this and the problem is not as widespread as we are lead to believe.

Many Protestants sometimes forget that they themselves are susceptible to sin. No one is free from Satan’s attempts to snatch us away from Christ.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[AllSaints1631]

I’m glad you showed this. People fail to realize that sex-abuse problems exist in many groups. My mother and father (Protestants) the other night blasted the Church for having pedophiliac priests, and things of that nature. I tried explaining that the media dwells on this and the problem is not as widespread as we are lead to believe.

Many Protestants sometimes forget that they themselves are susceptible to sin. No one is free from Satan’s attempts to snatch us away from Christ.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

You are absolutely right and the problem does exist in all circles it seems and that is unfortunate, but what is even more unfortunate is how for many years Catholic clergy abused children and it did NOT go unknown but it DID go undealt with. Instead of facing this head on, the selected plan was to move these priests from diocese to diocese and even from country to country. My parents just watched a movie about a pedophile priest from the USA that was moved between diocese three times and ultimately moved to Ireland. This unfortunate practice is well documented and precidented. Catholic or Protestant it doesn’t matter in this horrible debacle. Anytime children are being preyed upon and the abuser is given priority over the victim, it is a horrific and despicable shame.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It was moved here so people can be aware of the problem.

Since when were educated, faithful people not aware there was a problem?!?! Protestant and Catholic churches alike are imperfect institutions at best.

Looks like more anti-Protestant bigotry. Congratulations, Manny - you’re acting just like stupid, bigoted Protestants.

 

[Milliardo]

I don’t believe that this is where the contention lies. Sexual wrongdoing of all kinds is everywhere and it is well precidented. The difference and of course the problem is how one recognizes the problem and resolves it or ignores it.

I think if we are to gauge it then, the Catholic Church recognizes and addresses the issue. We are left to speculate as to how those who bash the Church resolve theirs.

 

[AllSaints1631]

I think if we are to gauge it then, the Catholic Church recognizes and addresses the issue. We are left to speculate as to how those who bash the Church resolve theirs.

I would guess that they do at least a decent job of solving theirs as they haven’t been one of the top stories in the news for months on end at any time that I am aware of.

 

[KarenNC]

I think if we are to gauge it then, the Catholic Church recognizes and addresses the issue. We are left to speculate as to how those who bash the Church resolve theirs.

In my experience, they turn the offending person over to the police to be prosecuted, it makes headlines for a while in the area where it occurred, might end up with a small notice in other papers depending on the reputation of the individual involved, and the congregation works at going on. Sometimes the particular church doesn’t survive long, if it was an independent church or organization formed mainly around the particular minister (and it was the minister who was involved—think about the Jim and Tammy Bakker PTL club scandal). Usually the congregation regroups and goes on (as in the case of several local ministers and other prominnent church members over the years who have been involved in either sex or money scandals).

 

[Mannyfit75]

Since when were educated, faithful people not aware there was a problem?!?! Protestant and Catholic churches alike are imperfect institutions at best.

Looks like more anti-Protestant bigotry. Congratulations, Manny - you’re acting just like stupid, bigoted Protestants.

First all of, I’m not a bigot, and I’m not stupid. Third, how uncharitable of you to judge me so. Who died and made you God?

I admit, I dislike Protestant theology. They view on salvation and theology is completely distortion of the Word of God, with their doctrine of sola scriptura and faith alone. I have to distaste for their bad theology. I do believe Protestants are sincere in their beliefs because they claim what they preach is true. I would say it is partly true because they are just a divided sect with different interpretation of Scripture.

I am I a bigot? No. I am Anti-Protestant. Yes, I am. Their theology is a distortion of Christianity. It’s a departure from a more Orthodox Conservation Catholic view.

Lastly, Luke. I am** offended by you **calling me bigot and stupid. You expect me to consider you a Christian? Well act like it.

 

[Milliardo]

I would guess that they do at least a decent job of solving theirs as they haven’t been one of the top stories in the news for months on end at any time that I am aware of.

We can argue more, though, that anti-Catholicism is a prejudice many people can’t get rid of, consciously or otherwise. These have been a rather open secret even within Protestantism itself for many years even before the recent scandals have hit the Church.

 

[Milliardo]

In my experience, they turn the offending person over to the police to be prosecuted, it makes headlines for a while in the area where it occurred, might end up with a small notice in other papers depending on the reputation of the individual involved, and the congregation works at going on. Sometimes the particular church doesn’t survive long, if it was an independent church or organization formed mainly around the particular minister (and it was the minister who was involved—think about the Jim and Tammy Bakker PTL club scandal). Usually the congregation regroups and goes on (as in the case of several local ministers and other prominnent church members over the years who have been involved in either sex or money scandals).

Not all the time do they turn the offender over. If it makes into a big scandal, they might. Many don’t see the light of day though and gets hushed up and simply fudged over.

 

[O.S.Luke]

First all of, I’m not a bigot, and I’m not stupid. Third, how uncharitable of you to judge me so. Who died and made you God?

No one. But your attitude comes through - it’s your words that are telling, Manny - not mine. And there is a difference between judgment and accountability.

I admit, I dislike Protestant theology. They view on salvation and theology is completely distortion of the Word of God, with their doctrine of sola scriptura and faith alone. I have to distaste for their bad theology.

As you have done many times before, you are pigeonholing all Protestants into one category. Neither my Church nor myself embraces the Solas. And faith without works is dead (read Methodism’s Means of Grace, acts of piety, etc.). And your use of “distaste” and “bad” isn’t helping your case. You are, of course, welcome to use any words you choose. But consider that while I have never said anything uncharitable about Catholicism (check any of my posts), you have been quite uncharitable at times with your generalizations of Protestants.

No. I am Anti-Protestant. Yes, I am. Their theology is a distortion of Christianity. It’s a departure from a more Orthodox Conservation Catholic view.

While I am not a Catholic, I am not anti-Catholic. Your true colors are showing, Manny.

Lastly, Luke. I am** offended by you **calling me bigot and stupid. You expect me to consider you a Christian? Well act like it.

I’m truly sorry you are offended. But sometimes, the truth hurts.

With God’s help, I will do my best to be Christian, sir. That included defending the faith and those who would besmirch a fellow Christian. You are better than that, Manny.

Pax vobiscum.

O+

 

[Mannyfit75]

No one. But your attitude comes through - it’s your words that are telling, Manny - not mine. And there is a difference between judgment and accountability.

My words are my words, and they are opinions.

As you have done many times before, you are pigeonholing all Protestants into one category. Neither my Church nor myself embraces the Solas. And faith without works is dead (read Methodism’s Means of Grace, acts of piety, etc.). And your use of “distaste” and “bad” isn’t helping your case. You are, of course, welcome to use any words you choose. But consider that while I have never said anything uncharitable about Catholicism (check any of my posts), you have been quite uncharitable at times with your generalizations of Protestants.

The behavior of your Protestants brothers here and with a few exception, prove the division with Protestantism itself.

While I am not a Catholic, I am not anti-Catholic. Your true colors are showing, Manny.

Of course you are not Catholic. I am very honest. I just find the theology of Protestantism as flawed. I **don’t hate **individual Protestants.

I’m truly sorry you are offended. But sometimes, the truth hurts.

I’m no bigot. Everyone who knows me knows I’m not.

With God’s help, I will do my best to be Christian, sir. That included defending the faith and those who would besmirch a fellow Christian. You are better than that, Manny.

Pax vobiscum.

O+

If you do want to be charitable, I suggest you would avoid name calling like you did to me by calling me stupid and a bigot. I for my part have not called you such.

 

[KarenNC]

Not all the time do they turn the offender over. If it makes into a big scandal, they might. Many don’t see the light of day though and gets hushed up and simply fudged over.

Let me see if I am understanding your statements correctly:

In addition to any sex or money or other scandals that are made public, a plethora of Protestant clergy (only one particular denomination or are they all doing it equally, btw?) are regularly embroiled in sex scandals. These scandals are being covered up on a regular basis, so thoroughly “hushed up and fudged over” that no one in the public ever knows about them.

No one but you.

I see.

 

[O.S.Luke]

This is my point - these things happen in churches, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. They have been hushed up in churches in the past, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. My own conference (akin to a diocese) has a lawsuit pending.

Non-Catholics who point toward Catholic church instances of sexual malfeasance are wrong to lump all Catholics this way. When Catholics point it out when it happens in a Protestant Church, it too is wrong. We should all be above this.

Why emphasize what is already tragic? We should be praying instead.

O+

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is my point - these things happen in churches, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. They have been hushed up in churches in the past, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. My own conference (akin to a diocese) has a lawsuit pending.

Non-Catholics who point toward Catholic church instances of sexual malfeasance are wrong to lump all Catholics this way. When Catholics point it out when it happens in a Protestant Church, it too is wrong. We should all be above this.

Why emphasize what is already tragic? We should be praying instead.

O+

Prayer should be used. When sex scandal is reported, it crosses all religions. No one is immune by it.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Let me see if I am understanding your statements correctly:

In addition to any sex or money or other scandals that are made public, a plethora of Protestant clergy (only one particular denomination or are they all doing it equally, btw?) are regularly embroiled in sex scandals. These scandals are being covered up on a regular basis, so thoroughly “hushed up and fudged over” that no one in the public ever knows about them.

No one but you.

I see.

I originally didn’t want to say that but I have to agree that this is what it looks like to me as well.

 

[mercygate]

Let me see if I am understanding your statements correctly:

In addition to any sex or money or other scandals that are made public, a plethora of Protestant clergy (only one particular denomination or are they all doing it equally, btw?) are regularly embroiled in sex scandals. These scandals are being covered up on a regular basis, so thoroughly “hushed up and fudged over” that no one in the public ever knows about them.

No one but you.

I see.

In my former denomination, there was plenty of sexual misconduct among clergy that kept the bishop awake nights. Rarely did it make the six o’clock news or even page 17 of the local paper.

Catholics get more press time partly because of the cultural bias against celibacy, and partly because there are so many more of us. The Catholic Church is the largest ecclesial body in the country. If we were doing a “fair play” analysis, we would be highlighted by percentage rather than by absolute numbers.

 

[KarenNC]

In my former denomination, there was plenty of sexual misconduct among clergy that kept the bishop awake nights. Rarely did it make the six o’clock news or even page 17 of the local paper.

Catholics get more press time partly because of the cultural bias against celibacy, and partly because there are so many more of us. The Catholic Church is the largest ecclesial body in the country. If we were doing a “fair play” analysis, we would be highlighted by percentage rather than by absolute numbers.

And yet, you still knew about it because you were involved in that denomination. It was not so hidden that no one knew about it. How many folks outside of that denomination were aware of the specifics?

There is a difference between sexual misconduct and sexual crimes, and I think that is a key point here. Sexual misconduct (the minister or priest is having an affair with the married organist, for instance, or sleeping with his girlfriend outside of marriage–or even his boyfriend) are issues internal to the church but not necessarily newsworthy unless they involve a particularly prominent figure. It certainly didn’t make the news when my married aunt ran off with the married minister, but it wasn’t deliberately hushed up in some sort of conspiracy to make that church look better than the Catholics. It just wasn’t newsworthy. I am sure there are equally Catholic priests who are having affairs with women in their parishes and it isn’t seen as newsworthy.

Even then, someone outside of the immediate local area would be unlikely to see news coverage. They are not criminal in terms of secular law, though they may contravene the laws of the church. I see no reason to expect that I am going to hear about every minister in a particular denomination who disobeys the laws of his church unless I happen to be part of that denomination and that if I don’t it’s because of a deliberate conspiracy against the Catholics.

Sexual crimes are more likely to get press, and were what I thought we were discussing (my apologies for not clarifying). These are things like clergy getting caught soliciting a prostitute, engaging in statutory rape, molesting children, etc. These are much more likely to get press regardless of the denomination and likely to get press more widely because they are simply deemed of wider interest. Even then, unless it is a widespread issue or an especially prominent figure, I doubt most of us hear about things that are publicized locally, just like I don’t necessarily hear about someone who robbed a bank in Denver or was arrested for drunk driving in Poughkeepsie unless the circumstances were in some way noteworthy or unique (drunk driving while wearing a gorilla suit or robbing a bank of a particularly large sum or in a particularly brutal way).

In my opinion, the Catholic Church got press because of the widespread and longlasting practice of coverup and moving priests who were known to molest to other parishes without any warning to the parish, thus endangering additional youth. It isn’t about “bias against celibacy”.

Yes, the size of the Catholic Church also plays into it because it makes it much more likely that it will potentially affect someone in most areas of the country. If you were talking about a similar situation in a denomination that had 50 churches over two states, it’s going to still be of concern but of much less potential national impact than one that has thousands of churches across the nation.

I agree that it would give a more complete picture if you compared percentages rather than absolute numbers, in both cases. It would be equally misleading to compare the numbers of priests engaged in specific sex crimes in the Catholic Church with the numbers of ministers in all Protestant denominations who engage in any sort of sexual misconduct. Accuracy would be better served by looking at the percentage of Catholic priests who engaged in x sex crime with the percentage of Presbyterian Church of America ministers who engaged in the same sex crime, for example. Protestants are not monolithic.

 

[mercygate]

And yet, you still knew about it because you were involved in that denomination. It was not so hidden that no one knew about it. How many folks outside of that denomination were aware of the specifics?

I knew about it because I worked on a committee for the Bishop. The congregation(s) knew about these things.

In one case, the minister went off to another diocese and served in a social service facility run by the Church. Later he returned to the diocese to serve another parish. In another case, the guy just took a secular job.