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catechistben
Guest
Good one…short and to the point!
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catechistben
Guest
Yes exactly what I was thinking. It would seem that sexual immorality is perhaps the most addressed and admonished form of sin in the entire Bible. Therefore would it not seem logical that God has placed a very special importance and emphasis on maintaining our chastity on that basis? I could then extrapolate and go out on a limb by saying that perhaps sexual immorality is taken more seriously than even other mortal sins? (I am sure I will hear about that statement)Additionally, the admonitions against sexual sin in scripture are much more explicit than those against “casual” substance abuse.
I could see where a person could become confusedand convince themselves that “casual” drug use is equivalent with moderate use of wine. But it would take, in my opinion, an act of arrogant disobedience :tsktsk: to override the very specific teachings on sexuality.
CB
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catechistben
Guest
Elizabeth B.:
You’re right, there is no excuse for poor behavior whatever that behavior may be. On the other hand though, what about looking at these issues from the perspective of weighing one’s character. Would you consider a recreational drug user or a recreational fornicator to have the bigger character flaw? Maybe they both need serious help.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Again I must disagree with you. Drug abuse always requries another person to participate or you do not have the drugs to use.
As for the idea that a drug dealer is always “open for business” the same can be said for some people regarding sex. There are many people who think it is ok to have sex outside of marriage, to have sex with others while in marriage, to have sex with multiple partners, so they are already sinning also.
There is no innocent party in either fornication nor drug abuse.
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maendem
Guest
Catechistben: This doesn’t by any chance have something to do with your thread about your girlfriend who was a “habitual fornicator” prior to your relationship? I don’t want to jump to conclusions or judge, but if this is an attempt to rank what I presume was your former behavior in comparison to hers, I’m not playing.
(If I"m way off base, forgive me; it just seemed to ring a bell from the last thread). Really.
That said: I had a class in Moral Theology last year, taught by a very orthodox, full-habit nun from the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist. Someone in class asked a similar question: I believe drugs vs. fornication as well. While this Sister noted that both are grave sins that damage our relationship with God and others, and that any sort of ranking is actually a distraction from loving God with one’s whole heart, she did observe that sex is something ordained by God (yes, to be enjoyed in a moral framework of marriage only) but nontheless befitting the human order and therefore instrinsically good.
The same cannot be said of abusing the body through drugs. Don’t misunderstand - she insisted that fornication is a mortal sin. However, it is a misuse of something that is in itself a good, philosophically speaking. I’m not sure one can “use drugs properly,” and the near-lethal chemical compounds of today’s narcotics were certainly not ordained by God for the human race.
(If I"m way off base, forgive me; it just seemed to ring a bell from the last thread). Really.
That said: I had a class in Moral Theology last year, taught by a very orthodox, full-habit nun from the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist. Someone in class asked a similar question: I believe drugs vs. fornication as well. While this Sister noted that both are grave sins that damage our relationship with God and others, and that any sort of ranking is actually a distraction from loving God with one’s whole heart, she did observe that sex is something ordained by God (yes, to be enjoyed in a moral framework of marriage only) but nontheless befitting the human order and therefore instrinsically good.
The same cannot be said of abusing the body through drugs. Don’t misunderstand - she insisted that fornication is a mortal sin. However, it is a misuse of something that is in itself a good, philosophically speaking. I’m not sure one can “use drugs properly,” and the near-lethal chemical compounds of today’s narcotics were certainly not ordained by God for the human race.
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Timidity
Guest
Um, no it doesn’t.
Masturbation is a gravely immoral sexual act that requires no one else.
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catechistben
Guest
I completely agree.
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catechistben
Guest
M - No it truly does not have anything to do with that. I can see why you might think that though.
A similar question was recently brought up in a philosophy course I am currently taking. My feeling is that most of the folks in the course were looking at the issue from a very worldly stand point. My intention is to garner more Christian based perspective on the question. I appreciate all of the (name removed by moderator)ut from everyone.
Interesting point regarding what the nun taught. I would add to that though when you take something that was created by God to be good (sex), and then misuse or abuse it, then it certainly could be argued that it becomes as bad as any other evil in the world…regardless of its origin. Many drugs are certainly used for good in many cases everyday, all over the world. God certainly created narctotics for man to use for good, such as a painkiller, but not to get high on. It is when drugs are abused that sin ensues. So I would think that in either case, sex or drugs, both have great potential for good. When either is abused they also both have tremendous potential for evil.
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catechistben
Guest
Sure, but Masturbation is not Fornication. The definition of Fornication is: Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
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serendipity
Guest
it would depend on the intention and state of mind of the addict. both can be addictions.
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Vandaler
Guest
Hi,
I did not answer the question neither have I read the thread.
I do however want to express my imcomprehension at the questions lack of context. One cannot grade sins by simply naming them.
Context plays major role in any matters of gradation.
I did not answer the question neither have I read the thread.
I do however want to express my imcomprehension at the questions lack of context. One cannot grade sins by simply naming them.
Context plays major role in any matters of gradation.
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Theodora
Guest
Both sins are very serious and I would consider them to fall under “deadly sins.” Either sin cuts you off from God’s spirit and grace. As a spiritually dead soul you cannot enter heaven.
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FranL
Guest
I guess I’m not looking at this from the right perspective.
I know the Church has two “classes” of sin, venial and mortal. If you commit a venial sin and die, you go to Heaven with a side trip through purgatory. If you commit a mortal sin and die, you go to hell.
So I would have to say some sins are worse than others.
Which action is which sin would have to consider the event itself I guess. But most of the cases of sexual sin I’m aware of and these would include fornication, fall into the second “class”, mortal.
On the other hand, the repeated breaking of the law and defying of just authority involved in recreational drug use would, I believe, also constitute a mortal sin. (Even if you grew your own and smoked it alone in front of the tube on Friday nights where you didn’t seem to be involving anyone else.)
I still do think it would be easier to slip into a state of confused reasoning concerning the latter that would mitigate the degree of sin.
Mortal vs. Venial aside, I have had experience in both areas (Sexual sin, drugs) and I am firmly convinced that the area of sexual sin is much more pervasive in our culture and our lax attitudes seriously exacerbates the problem.
C.S. Lewis felt that Pride was the father of all sin. To me dead is dead. If one sin sends you to hell then it’s the same as any other sin that sends you to hell. But the concept of a “father sin” brings into the argument a new scale for measuring lesser and greater evils.
Maybe that’s what the argument is about. Not which is the greater sin but which is the greater evil.
If that’s the case, I vote fornication.
Yours in Christ,
I know the Church has two “classes” of sin, venial and mortal. If you commit a venial sin and die, you go to Heaven with a side trip through purgatory. If you commit a mortal sin and die, you go to hell.
So I would have to say some sins are worse than others.
Which action is which sin would have to consider the event itself I guess. But most of the cases of sexual sin I’m aware of and these would include fornication, fall into the second “class”, mortal.
On the other hand, the repeated breaking of the law and defying of just authority involved in recreational drug use would, I believe, also constitute a mortal sin. (Even if you grew your own and smoked it alone in front of the tube on Friday nights where you didn’t seem to be involving anyone else.)
I still do think it would be easier to slip into a state of confused reasoning concerning the latter that would mitigate the degree of sin.
Mortal vs. Venial aside, I have had experience in both areas (Sexual sin, drugs) and I am firmly convinced that the area of sexual sin is much more pervasive in our culture and our lax attitudes seriously exacerbates the problem.
C.S. Lewis felt that Pride was the father of all sin. To me dead is dead. If one sin sends you to hell then it’s the same as any other sin that sends you to hell. But the concept of a “father sin” brings into the argument a new scale for measuring lesser and greater evils.
Maybe that’s what the argument is about. Not which is the greater sin but which is the greater evil.
If that’s the case, I vote fornication.
Yours in Christ,
- FranL
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sweetchuck
Guest
The answer to the question really depends on the person who’s sinning. Sexual sins are always mortal sins. Drug sins can be mortal sins, but addiction can lessen moral culpability for drug users.
From the Catechism…
2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.
1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”).
The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts - such as fornication - that it is always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
for more…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
From the Catechism…
2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.
1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”).
The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts - such as fornication - that it is always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
for more…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
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catechistben
Guest
Good stuff Chuck, thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. It seems from most people’s response that we feel that these acts are either equal to each other or sex is the great sin. Only a small minority are saying that using drugs is a greater sin. Very interesting…
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alterserver_07
Guest
I think sex outside marrage is worse in some situations, because you could of preasued the other person to sin with you and that is horrible. Drugs at least you bring down usualy only yourself.
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BlindSheep
Guest
Fornication is worse. It is against natural law, always wrong, not a matter of degree but an either/or type of thing, and not only spiritually, emotionally and sometimes physically harms yourself and your partner, but also the children that may be concieved and aborted or born out of wedlock.
Drugs are immoral if they are against the law (of your country), or are used in excess. It’s a matter of degree. To put it another way - the difference between moderate and excessive drinking , for instance, is quantitative. The difference between fornication and chastity is qualitative. Smoking pot breaks America’s law, but fornication breaks God’s law. (While we do have to follow the laws of our country, God’s law is higher)
Drugs are immoral if they are against the law (of your country), or are used in excess. It’s a matter of degree. To put it another way - the difference between moderate and excessive drinking , for instance, is quantitative. The difference between fornication and chastity is qualitative. Smoking pot breaks America’s law, but fornication breaks God’s law. (While we do have to follow the laws of our country, God’s law is higher)
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bluezone7
Guest
This is such an apples and oranges comparison-question. This question is like asking which is worse, punching your Mom or your Grandma in the face?! Both are an abuse of the human body in God’s eyes but at least fornication can create life or possibly death/infertility if you get a STD. Yet, when you get high on drugs you are out of control and make yourself totally vunerable and if you die while on drugs; where doess your soul stand with your Maker —heaven?, hell? or purgatory?—that’s a chance most people would probably not want to take if they really thought about it? All sin is the same in God’s eyes but each sin carries a different, effect and/or punsihment.
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turboEDvo
Guest
Both are incredibly misguided, and both are severe. However, if you twisted my arm for an answer, I would say pre-marital sex because three lives are at stake instead of one, your own, your partner’s, and the child that could be conceived. Drug use can also extend to hurt many as well though…
Eamon
Eamon
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Vox_Borealis
Guest
I agree with the sentiment, but clearly there are moral hierarchies–this is implied by the church teaching of the lesser evil. Or in this case: to knowingly and willingly to steal is a mortal sin, but it strikes me as worse to steal $100 from someone than to steal $50.
In any case, I picked drugs over fornication, though I think one has to consider the context of the acts. It seems to me that fornication is often rooted in positive emotions or callings that have been twisted or subverted in some way. For example, wanting to have sex with your partner before marriage–the unitive desire is natural and good, but the act before marriage turns that creative act into a sin. Also, fornication may lead to pregnancy and a child. Again, while the act is a sin the product is something of infinite value, a new life.
Drugs on the other hand strike me as having only destructive consequences; their use does not seem to be a positive act that has been twisted or perverted, nor do they seem rooted in a positive calling. One could say that the desire to “feel good” is positive, in that it drives us to take nourishment rather than starve ourselves, to take part in pleasing activities (singing, reading, etc.), and so forth, but these strikes me as a strained argument.
But the main point that all sin separates us from God is quite right. Moreover, Catholic teachings are synthetic and not discrete–to embrace fully JP II’s culture of life means rejecting drugs and fornication.
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