Sexless Marriage?

[Xantippe]

I have no doubt that there are other issues here, but the rest weren’t posted. Given that this has been going on for years, his choices are sticking with the status quo (and at this point I’m skeptical that counseling is going to make a difference), or doing something that really gets her attention. I’m not saying to get a lawyer and find a girlfriend. I’m saying he should move out, at least temporarily and let her know it is because it’s just too painful to live in constant rejection. Maybe seeing just how badly this is hurting him will at least make her more willing to try to work on their problems. And if it doesn’t, he’ll finally have real confirmation of whether or not she even cares for him.

This is just the other side of the adultery coin. As painful as it would be to have a husband who sleeps around, it would be just as painful to have a husband who refuses to have sex or engage in physical intimacy. That’s a soul crusher.

I think our OP has a lot of things he can work on.

 

[Xantippe]

I think I see what you are saying here, but I disagree.

A spouse in a Sacramental Marriage CANNOT deny marital relations that are reasonable to their spouse. It is a serious sin to do so. My flesh belongs to my husband, my husband’s flesh belongs to me, literally we are ONE flesh I cannot deny someone their own flesh. To deliberately and habitually deny someone affection, sexual relations is spousal abuse. If I am injured in a car accident my husband has to accept my physical limitations, but he does not have to accept my manipulations because I am angry or upset or wanting things my way it’s not the same thing.

We can probably go back and forth here and find reasons why reasonable persons would find times they would not want to engage in the marital act. Illness, being extremely tired, however one spouse cannot use the marital act as a weapon or as a manipulative tool. No, you cannot just “not be in the mood” for months or years. That is not how it works. That was given up at the altar when I gave my body in flesh to my husband and he to me. If there is a problem then I need to seek counsel.

No married couple are perfectly sexually compatible! I hope I am clear that I am talking about repeated denial here that has morphed into a lifestyle for some couples, not an occasional one.

Do you think the OP’s wife should have sex with him if she hates him, despises him, or is disgusted by him? Or if it is clear that he hates her/despises her/is disgusted by her?

I don’t think that would lead to a good place–one doesn’t fix major relationship dysfunction with sex.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Do you think the OP’s wife should have sex with him if she hates him, despises him, or is disgusted by him? Or if it is clear that he hates her/despises her/is disgusted by her?

I don’t think that would lead to a good place–one doesn’t fix major relationship dysfunction with sex.

YES!!! Sex is an integral part of marriage, not a little something extra for when things are good. No one is suggesting that problems can be fixed with sex, but denying sex can, and 99% of the time will, cause even more. I would also expect the OP to stay faithful to his wife even if one or both of them hates the other. Fidelity is another an integral part of marriage. It isn’t something to be earned, negotiated, or used as a reward - much like sex.

Fortunately, I have never despised my husband, and to my knowledge at least, he’s never despised me. But like all married couples we have had our problems. There was one rough patch in particular right after he was done with chemo that was especially dark for both of us, and we did eventually end up in counseling to help us get back to relating as husband and wife instead of invalid and caretaker.

But if at any point during our struggles he had told me that there was just too much hurt/anger/resentment/disgust or whatever between us to have sex with me, I would have gone to stay with my mother until I figured out where to go from there. You can’t compartmentalize marriage - either you’re all in or not. You can work on communication, conflict, trust, responsibility while working on intimacy. And regular sex has been shown to help partners overcome other issues because it naturally makes them feel more connected.

Martial vows and obligations aren’t there to be enjoyed when things are good, they’re there to hold you together when things are awful. You fall back on them even when you feel like you despise the person. If vows were just for the “for better” times, there would be no need for them.

 

[Patavium]

YES!!! Sex is an integral part of marriage, not a little something extra for when things are good. No one is suggesting that problems can be fixed with sex, but denying sex can, and 99% of the time will, cause even more. I would also expect the OP to stay faithful to his wife even if one or both of them hates the other. Fidelity is another an integral part of marriage. It isn’t something to be earned, negotiated, or used as a reward - much like sex.

Fortunately, I have never despised my husband, and to my knowledge at least, he’s never despised me. But like all married couples we have had our problems. There was one rough patch in particular right after he was done with chemo that was especially dark for both of us, and we did eventually end up in counseling to help us get back to relating as husband and wife instead of invalid and caretaker.

But if at any point during our struggles he had told me that there was just too much hurt/anger/resentment/disgust or whatever between us to have sex with me, I would have gone to stay with my mother until I figured out where to go from there. You can’t compartmentalize marriage - either you’re all in or not. You can work on communication, conflict, trust, responsibility while working on intimacy. And regular sex has been shown to help partners overcome other issues because it naturally makes them feel more connected.

Martial vows and obligations aren’t there to be enjoyed when things are good, they’re there to hold you together when things are awful. You fall back on them even when you feel like you despise the person. If vows were just for the “for better” times, there would be no need for them.

A lot of good points in this response. I recommend the OP reads it.

 

[MainBrain]

Thanks for all of your responses. I was going to respond to each one, but honestly, I’m just too tired. I’ve been working all day.

I see some of you know my history here. It’s not a very happy history. Someone pointed out my job situation and my “mental health.”

As for my job situation, I have been working. And when I got a new job it made no difference whatsoever in my romantic relationship with my W. Not a thing. I have a new job and still no difference. In fact, we have not been together once this year. As for last year? Well, does 2 times count? Tragic I know.

As for my mental health I am fine. Yes, depression has always been an issue with me. Since I have been working I am doing much better. I still have my battles like everyone does. My last job did not last too long. But I got a new job and I am happy. However, I am getting way underpaid. But last least I have a job.

I find it ironic that the only thing I feel I really “need” is the sex. Now I know I don’t “need” that. But it’s so important. I don’t do anything else really. I have not issues with substance abuse of any kind. Sometimes I really wonder if this is a test for me. Given that it’s the one thing that is really important to me, it’s the one thing I don’t get. Perhaps it’s a test? Perhaps it’s a test to see if I am going to suffer through it as a penance for my years the sexual sins committed by me in the past? I can’t believe I am writing this.

But how long can a person go on like this realistically speaking?

I’m going over the responses! I really agree with some of them. There is a Sacramental agreement in a marriage and my wife does not acknowledge that. I read her 1 Cor 7. She did not know it existed. It made no difference to her. She just felt pressured.

 

[Rau]

…But how long can a person go on like this realistically speaking?

So to be clear, you are a kind and loving husband, and your wife loves you dearly…but cannot cope with the idea of having sex. Is that it in a nutshell?

 

[Rau]

YES!!! Sex is an integral part of marriage, not a little something extra for when things are good.

This is certainly true, but one cannot form a sound view on the absence of sex based solely on what has been revealed in this thread. Which is almost nothing other than the fact of little to no sex happening.

 

[Xantippe]

This is certainly true, but one cannot form a sound view on the absence of sex based solely on what has been revealed in this thread. Which is almost nothing other than the fact of little to no sex happening.

Right.

 

[Marie5890]

Is there any grounds for divorce if one spouse has to suffer in a sexless marriage if the other spouse refuses to offer it or even get help for it? I have posted the same subject here years ago and it has only gotten worse.

This is your main question. Is it ground for divorce?

Im guessing that since you are asking a Catholic forum, you are wanting to know what Catholic theology is.

No. It’s not, not in Catholic view.
Can you get divorced? Yes you can, but if you were to re-marry, you would be committing adultery. You would have to remain single and chaste to remain in a state of grace.

Is this what you are wanting to know?

There is not such thing as divorce in Catholic theology.
Would you be able to get a declaration of annulment? Is that what you are asking? That is a hard one to answer. You would need to go thru the process to find out if you have grounds for such

 

[Xantippe]

This is your main question. Is it ground for divorce?

Im guessing that since you are asking a Catholic forum, you are wanting to know what Catholic theology is.

No. It’s not, not in Catholic view.
Can you get divorced? Yes you can, but if you were to re-marry, you would be committing adultery. You would have to remain single and chaste to remain in a state of grace.

Is this what you are wanting to know?

There is not such thing as divorce in Catholic theology.
Would you be able to get a declaration of annulment? Is that what you are asking? That is a hard one to answer. You would need to go thru the process to find out if you have grounds for such

If you did get an annulment, you’d be a middle-aged divorced guy spending at least 50% of the time without your son. A second nicer wife does not come free with your annulment papers. Also, if you did start dating, you’d have to find a woman who could deal with your child, who liked your child, and that your child liked.

If you didn’t get the annulment, you’d be a middle-aged divorced guy spending at least 50% of your time without your son and you’d have to be content with the single life.

If I’m remembering correctly and your child is autistic, you probably need two adults at home in the evening to cope with him. Also, I don’t have to tell you that autistic kids hate change and having to deal with new people. I have an autistic child of my own (but very high functioning) and I’d hate to have to explain to her that she was going to have to spend 50% of the week in a different home. It’s simply unthinkable for a kid like that.

 

[1ke]

This is your main question. Is it ground for divorce?

Im guessing that since you are asking a Catholic forum, you are wanting to know what Catholic theology is.

No. It’s not, not in Catholic view.
Can you get divorced? Yes you can, but if you were to re-marry, you would be committing adultery. You would have to remain single and chaste to remain in a state of grace.

Is this what you are wanting to know?

There is not such thing as divorce in Catholic theology.
Would you be able to get a declaration of annulment? Is that what you are asking? That is a hard one to answer. You would need to go thru the process to find out if you have grounds for such

The OP is not in a valid marriage.

 

[Marie5890]

The OP is not in a valid marriage.

oh ok,
thanks.
Either way, the idea of divorce doesn’t really apply.

 

[Xantippe]

The OP is not in a valid marriage.

Well, that would have been a very helpful piece of information for the OP to share.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, absolutely she should. In fact a sacramental marriage commands it, it is sinful not to because your body belongs not just to you anymore.

How about, just for the argument, replace “have sex” with “say I love you” or “give a kiss.” Should a spouse “I love you” to his wife if he is disgusted by her? Should he give her a kiss if he feels as if he hates her? YES.

This is totally radical! This is what the Catholic church is, completely radical! We are not ruled by our emotions or how we “feel” at the moment, we are ruled by God’s commandments. Yes, even if I feel as if I hate my husband I am supposed to surrender my body. This is totally counter-cultural I know that. For a long time I didn’t believe it. I thought my emotions were the last say in everything but I was wrong. My vows at the altar really meant something, when we were joined in one flesh it meant that in many ways and one of them is that our physical bodies belong to each other.

I don’t wait until I feel like taking care of my children, I take care of them because I am supposed to. I don’t wait until I feel like going to Mass on Sunday, I go to Mass because God commands it. I don’t always FEEL like doing certain things, and often satan tempts us to not do things so we must work against him.

In marriage, sometimes we don’t feel like kissing, hugging, or doing other things but we do them because we are committed to the marriage. You know what? That is a good thing! Anyone can be swept up in a moment of passion, but only a person truly committed to another person deeply can stay by their side in moments of boredom and luke-warmness, therefore I believe the times in my marriage where we were together when it wasn’t 100% sparks of passion were the most meaningful to be totally honest because that meant we were there for each other no matter what, even when it was harder for one or both of us.

I don’t know if I’m completely on board with all of the above but it really is a good point.
This was written by someone who knows what marriage is theologically and in practicality.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, absolutely she should. In fact a sacramental marriage commands it, it is sinful not to because your body belongs not just to you anymore.

How about, just for the argument, replace “have sex” with “say I love you” or “give a kiss.” Should a spouse “I love you” to his wife if he is disgusted by her? Should he give her a kiss if he feels as if he hates her? YES.

This is totally radical! This is what the Catholic church is, completely radical! We are not ruled by our emotions or how we “feel” at the moment, we are ruled by God’s commandments. Yes, even if I feel as if I hate my husband I am supposed to surrender my body. This is totally counter-cultural I know that. For a long time I didn’t believe it. I thought my emotions were the last say in everything but I was wrong. My vows at the altar really meant something, when we were joined in one flesh it meant that in many ways and one of them is that our physical bodies belong to each other.

I don’t wait until I feel like taking care of my children, I take care of them because I am supposed to. I don’t wait until I feel like going to Mass on Sunday, I go to Mass because God commands it. I don’t always FEEL like doing certain things, and often satan tempts us to not do things so we must work against him.

In marriage, sometimes we don’t feel like kissing, hugging, or doing other things but we do them because we are committed to the marriage. You know what? That is a good thing! Anyone can be swept up in a moment of passion, but only a person truly committed to another person deeply can stay by their side in moments of boredom and luke-warmness, therefore I believe the times in my marriage where we were together when it wasn’t 100% sparks of passion were the most meaningful to be totally honest because that meant we were there for each other no matter what, even when it was harder for one or both of us.

I feel like that would be telling lies with my body and it would feel a lot like being raped. To do that over and over again could be emotionally devastating.

I almost never say no to my husband, but at the same time, I would never have marital relations with him while either of us was being angry or hateful. It could easily wreck marital lovemaking for me.

I’ll give a non-sexual example of the harm that can arise accidentally from combining good things with negative emotions. Several years ago, I had a late miscarriage that I took a long, long time to recover emotionally from. While I was recovering, I would occasionally buy grocery store carnations to cheer me up. It helped a lot. However, there was one bad consequence–unfortunately, years later, even now that I am basically 99% recovered, I still have the problem that whenever I look at cut flowers as I walk past the floral section at the grocery store, I immediately think about my miscarriage. So, the fact that I created a mental association between my miscarriage and cut flowers has wrecked bouquets for me. Hence, I would really caution against combining strong negative emotions with marital relations–one could easily create a sort of Pavlovian situation where marital relations immediately brings up negative emotions. In fact, I almost wonder if that isn’t what has already happened with the OP’s wife/putative wife/whatever she is.

Edited to add: I feel like the “lie back and think of England” method could be especially psychologically harmful for anybody with experience of sexual abuse or violence, which is unfortunately a pretty large group of people.

 

[Augustine3]

Is there any grounds for divorce if one spouse has to suffer in a sexless marriage if the other spouse refuses to offer it or even get help for it? I have posted the same subject here years ago and it has only gotten worse.

Here are some rhetorical questions to consider:

1. how do you engage with your wife when you want to have sex? Is the message “I’m hungry give me my due” or “I love you and I want to be one with you”
2. have you spoken to your wife about it to find out the reason why she is not open to sex with you? Does she feel love from you before you engage?
3. have you offered up your suffering to Christ and decided to love your wife before yourself even if it is a sexless relationship?

 

[Augustine3]

The OP is not in a valid marriage.

The OP is not in a valid marriage but he’s asking questions about divorce. How is asking these sort of questions relevant in a Catholic forum if it’s not a valid marriage in the first place?

 

[1ke]

The OP is not in a valid marriage but he’s asking questions about divorce. How is asking these sort of questions relevant in a Catholic forum if it’s not a valid marriage in the first place?

They are not in a valid marriage. They are not in a position to convalidate their invalid marriage due to the numerous marital problems they have-- they may not be in a position to give valid consent (this requires much discussion with his pastor, and I don’t think she will even go see him).

So, abstaining is exactly what they should be doing at this point, until they decide to be married fully or to separate. There are children involved. So perhaps remaining in the same household and living chastely is what they are called to do right now.

It’s a multi-layered problem including past infidelity, or suspected infidelity by the wife, communication issues, anger issues, depression-- there’s just a lot going on that needs professional assistance. We can’t give them the help they need here, nor permission to stay nor permission to divorce, nor anything else.

And the OP comes back periodically and asks about a sexless marriage, but doesn’t give the full history. I am sure it is quite difficult for the OP. He clearly wants intimacy with his wife, wants it to be a marriage, but it takes 2.

He needs to discuss the full situation including his invalid marriage with his pastor.

 

[Xantippe]

They are not in a valid marriage. They are not in a position to convalidate their invalid marriage due to the numerous marital problems they have-- they may not be in a position to give valid consent (this requires much discussion with his pastor, and I don’t think she will even go see him).

So, abstaining is exactly what they should be doing at this point, until they decide to be married fully or to separate. There are children involved. So perhaps remaining in the same household and living chastely is what they are called to do right now.

It’s a multi-layered problem including past infidelity, or suspected infidelity by the wife, communication issues, anger issues, depression-- there’s just a lot going on that needs professional assistance. We can’t give them the help they need here, nor permission to stay nor permission to divorce, nor anything else.

And the OP comes back periodically and asks about a sexless marriage, but doesn’t give the full history. I am sure it is quite difficult for the OP. He clearly wants intimacy with his wife, wants it to be a marriage, but it takes 2.

He needs to discuss the full situation including his invalid marriage with his pastor.

Yes.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

The OP is not in a valid marriage.

If the OP is not in a valid marriage, shouldn’t he be living chastely anyway? I think you say “as brother and sister” (if I understand Catholicism fully).

To the OP, I’m sorry I can’t help with your question, there is clearly a lot of background reading other posts that some of us are not aware of. There are so many questions such as why your wife doesn’t want sex? Why you expect her to accept Catholic theology when she isn’t Catholic (and you are not in a valid marriage anyway). Have you been to counselling? (You don’t have to actually answer these) etc.

I think you best people to talk to are your wife, a counsellor and your Priest.