sexual abuse by protestant ministers

[4Squarebaby]

Oh so, in your opinion, a Catholic priest sins and it stains the whole Church? Don’t you realize how that sounds? A single individual has sinned and the whole Church is now contaminated. How convenient that is for your argument.

It’s not the Priest, just as I said in my first post. Prsident Nixon did nothing at the Watergate Hotel but cover up private investigators/burglers.actions. Its the Bishop whose sin was the cover up and the Pope who promoted the offending Cardinal to Rome instead of casting him out in disgrace like President Nixon was.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It’s not the Priest, just as I said in my first post. Prsident Nixon did nothing at the Watergate Hotel but cover up private investigators/burglers.actions. Its the Bishop whose sin was the cover up and the Pope who promoted the offending Cardinal to Rome instead of casting him out in disgrace like President Nixon was.

President Nixon was more than complicit in Watergate.

You are trying to connect the Pope to continue your mudslinging against the Catholic Church. At least, in your eyes, you’ve found something to capitalize on. I guess some have to find something like this to debate theology.

 

[4Squarebaby]

President Nixon was more than complicit in Watergate.

You are trying to connect the Pope to continue your mudslinging against the Catholic Church. At least, in your eyes, you’ve found something to capitalize on. I guess some have to find something like this to debate theology.

I never debate theology I question the moral courage of the Bishops and Pope to stand up for what is right and not what would protect their fiefdoms.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I never debate theology I question the moral courage of the Bishops and Pope to stand up for what is right and not what would protect their fiefdoms.

Those who can’t debate theology must find other ways they feel they can capitalize over those they disagree with. It just sad you choose the sins of some and then use it to question an entire Church and without proof of guilt of all those you cast insinuations at.

 

[Vile_Servant]

According to Pope Boniface VIII of Unam Sanctam fame, they never had it to begin with.

What about according to the Protestant Churches?

 

[gamewell45]

Well this is a discussion forum, it would be a rather boring discussion if everyone starts threads like “Positives of the Mormon Church” with 200 replies listing all the wonderful aspects of that church. What’s the point? It’s not fun, it’s informative in a propagandaish way. I think a proper balance of positive and negative is the goal.

Well if nothing else, if it were done respectfully i guess it might be more acceptable. Just my opinion.

 

[jen_fla]

Well if nothing else, if it were done respectfully i guess it might be more acceptable. Just my opinion.

please show me how i did this disrespectfully. i have been accused of defending this sick behavior which i never once and never would do and also of name calling which i never did, yet now somehow i am disrespectful. i do hope you read all my posts and not just the first one. if you don’t think sharing facts that could help children is a positive thing, then i really don’t know what to say to you. if you reread post #53, i think it will help you see what i was trying to get across.

peace.

 

[jen_fla]

A few more facts, please.

Can you break this down into decades or time frames of some kind?

Do you have percentages? The percentage of the number of pedophiles per total of ministers in each decade? There are an awful lot of Protestant ministers out there, both in total and the number who were ordained per decade.

Listing this string of numbers is meaningless.

is annually ok for you?

insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

 

[jen_fla]

A couple of considerations

1. The vast majority of Catholic priests, of course, are not involved in sexual misconduct.

2. The Boston study, which first initiated this whole matter, investigated Protestant clergy also, and found that sexual exploitation of children was far less.

3. The most serious indictment of the Catholic system has been that pedophiles and such have been protected by the hierarchy and even reassigned to other churches.

4. There also is the sin of asking/forcing/bribing victims to keep silent about their exploitation by a priest. Some even signed statements promising to be silent. In many cases the children were not believed, even by their parents, or they did not tell out of guilt or fear.

5. The worst 'Protestant' offenders, in this area at least, seem to be pastors of self-organized churches, men who have no ties with major denominations, usually with little education, often operating out of storefronts. These are hardly bonafide clergy. In the USA, of course, there must be 300,000 maybe 400,000, Protestant clergy. And what is it? Roughly 50,000 Catholic priests? Someone out there must have the authoratative figures.

6. The Catholic clergy seems to have attracted more men who have sexual problems, which they often seek to hide or solve by becoming priests. They hope that by joining the clergy they can overcome their problem and be truly celibate, which frquently does not happen. The sexual impulse is powerful and too many yield to it in weak moments.

 7. A Protestant clergyman in this area was accused of infidelity with a member of his congregation who had come to him for counseling. He immediately was dropped from the ministry by action of the Bishop. Every year the ministers in the regional organization of that denomination are asked if any charges should be brought against any other clergy. If so the clergy go into executive session and consider such charges. 

 8. The priests I know are faithful to their vows and valiant soldiers for Christ. However, the truth is coming out about abuse which was never rampant but for too long concealed, with too many priests getting away with crimes against children and youth - even protected by their superiors, eager to shield the church from scandal.

God bless all clergy, and may the Lord make them worthy to their high calling. None of them are saints, as they all are human, but the overwhelming majority are men (and women) of dedication and high moral standards.

could you please post the study you mentioned in point #2? i am not disputing it, but so far i have come across several studies that say the opposite.

thanks.

 

[jen_fla]

That’s just like you to to *twist *the meaning of what somebody said as you’ve done on other threads.

JEN FLA was NOT defending the clergy in this post - just a comparison between the crimes in the Catholic Church as opposed to what is going on in Protestant churches. It was also noted that this is a horrible thing - no matter WHO is doing the molesting.

The offenses committed by Catholic Clergy make headlines because of the potential for money that can be won by a large entity as the Catholic Church and it’s perceived “endless wealth” - as opposed to the average small Protestant church.

thank you elvisman. obviously, some people do not read carefully.

peace!

 

[jen_fla]

Roy5 you said:

What kind of sexual problems are you referring to; homosexuality or pedophilia? Homosexuals are not the same as pedophiles and generally have consensual sex with adults like heterosexuals. I wouldn’t group these two together.

No sexual impulse is too powerful to suppress. God wouldn’t make it impossible for us not to sin.

good post!

peace

 

[joe_clark]

Oh so, in your opinion, a Catholic priest sins and it stains the whole Church? Don’t you realize how that sounds? A single individual has sinned and the whole Church is now contaminated. How convenient that is for your argument.

The priest who commits acts of abuse does not stain the entire church. What does stain the entire church is the evading, deflecting and dancing the Bishops and higher levels engage in all to protect themselves. The ones who have clearly harbored the sick and the guilty, have become enablers and whose sin was the cover up and the Pope who promoted the offending Cardinal to Rome instead of casting him out in disgrace.

The people that love the Lord are sad because we can all see this with the rest of the world and just not what we are told to see and to go blind on at command. This is the reason it feels like the Catholic Church is being singled out, because it is because it continues this dangerous charade. As parents, we are frightened for our children as well as all of the children of God. I have no doubt that the targeting will continue until the leaders do what must be done. .

 

[ralphinal]

Roy5 you said:

What kind of sexual problems are you referring to; homosexuality or pedophilia? Homosexuals are not the same as pedophiles and generally have consensual sex with adults like heterosexuals. I wouldn’t group these two together.

No sexual impulse is too powerful to suppress. God wouldn’t make it impossible for us not to sin.

That is why the media only phrases this as cases of pedophilia. The vast majority were not pedophilia

 

[tweetymom]

The priest who commits acts of abuse does not stain the entire church. What does stain the entire church is the evading, deflecting and dancing the Bishops and higher levels engage in all to protect themselves. The ones who have clearly harbored the sick and the guilty, have become enablers and whose sin was the cover up and the Pope who promoted the offending Cardinal to Rome instead of casting him out in disgrace.

The people that love the Lord are sad because we can all see this with the rest of the world and just not what we are told to see and to go blind on at command. This is the reason it feels like the Catholic Church is being singled out, because it is because it continues this dangerous charade. As parents, we are frightened for our children as well as all of the children of God. I have no doubt that the targeting will continue until the leaders do what must be done. .

Very well said.

 

[moto5150]

I’ve been avoiding posting in this thread, but if you all will entertain this interjection, I will oblige:

As one involved in Law Enforcement, I see this issue as a WORLD PROBLEM. It is not a Protestant or Catholic problem any more than it is a WITNESS PROBLEM. And a very very serious one at that.

Being protestant, I can accept differences in what many would consider ‘non-essentials to salvation’ with my Catholic brothers and sisters, and unite with one simple goal: JESUS!!

It disgusts me that this issue is in the church (protestant, catholic, whatever) to begin with. We live in a massively sinful and selfish world, period. Homicide, violence, sexual abuse, domestic violence all run absolutely rampant in our society, however, I will say that there is something particularly disturbing about victimizing children in a sexual manner, which is against CHRIST before it is a sin against the church. Child exploitation/molestation is one of the single most violent crimes that exist in our world today. That said, it is even more detestable that this issue has found itself in the body of Christ. It is a serious issue ladies and gentlemen.

I think that the issue here in terms of the Catholic/Protestant debate is more simple than the preceding posts suggest. There is no room for this issue in the Church, I think you all will agree. I would also suggest that the Catholic Church itself, holds a self proclaimed ‘higher standard’ than many or most protestant churches. This naturally leaves the Catholic Church much less room for such issues, as it relates to it’s witness to the world. Let’s be fair: Before Christ, there is no room for this in any setting, protestant or catholic. However, the “real church”, as it is known to the public will only open itself to a much higher level of scrutiny with such issues coming to light. When such issues come to light, any attempt to cover-up or conceal only creates a problem far worse than the original act of molestation, as it pushes people away from truth, away from light, and ultimately, away from Christ. If there truly was or is any degree of ‘cover-up’, on any level, with any church, I would venture to say that the problem has increased ten fold.

There is no room for sexual abuse toward children.
There is less than no room for it in the church.
There is less room still for covering it up.

May those involved be exposed whether Christian, Catholic, Protestant, whatever the case…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The priest who commits acts of abuse does not stain the entire church. What does stain the entire church is the evading, deflecting and dancing the Bishops and higher levels engage in all to protect themselves. The ones who have clearly harbored the sick and the guilty, have become enablers and whose sin was the cover up and the Pope who promoted the offending Cardinal to Rome instead of casting him out in disgrace.

The people that love the Lord are sad because we can all see this with the rest of the world and just not what we are told to see and to go blind on at command. This is the reason it feels like the Catholic Church is being singled out, because it is because it continues this dangerous charade. As parents, we are frightened for our children as well as all of the children of God. I have no doubt that the targeting will continue until the leaders do what must be done. .

Do you know for a fact that the Pope knew the sins of the Cardinal?

Again, some reasoning is not DEFLECTION, just as some criticism is not Catholic bashing.

As Catholics, we know there is a problem. We should be taking extra measures to protect the children.

 

[gamewell45]

please show me how i did this disrespectfully. i have been accused of defending this sick behavior which i never once and never would do and also of name calling which i never did, yet now somehow i am disrespectful. i do hope you read all my posts and not just the first one. if you don’t think sharing facts that could help children is a positive thing, then i really don’t know what to say to you. if you reread post #53, i think it will help you see what i was trying to get across.

peace.

Jen, stop being so defensive; it wasn’t directed at you. It was directed in general at some of the posters who come in there and are disrespectful at times.

 

[Roy5]

Some quick points

1. The study I referred to in #71 was the one conducted by the Boston Globe, which - as I recall - first exposed priestly abuse of children and youth in the Boston area. I’m sure it can be located through the internet. It goes back a number of years. The investigators checked out Protestant clergy and found them much less likely to be involved in pedaphilia or homosexual contact with youth.

2. I believe that most of the priestly abuse has been against youth and not children, It seemed to spring from a seeming desire of some gays (not most) to seek sex with teenage boys. It also was likely that they were more accessible because of altar boys, parochial schools, etc. I believe it's hard to defend any of this as consentual, even if the youth did not resist for whatever reasons - intimidation, infatuation, fear, etc. 

3. It is true that the sexual urge is not powerful enough so as not to be suppressed by some people. However, some of those confronting a sexual urge can find rationales that, in the 'heat' of the moment, can overcome their reason, their vows, etc. Different people seem to have different levels of intensity when it comes to sexual desire. 

4. Why are Protestant clergy less likely to abuse children and youth? Their churches are more democratic, smaller in size (usually), more like a family, and it probably is less likely that such behavior can be hidden. Moreover, in past years Protestants have been less likely to place their ministers on a pedestal. They cannot forgive sins, their words cannot turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, etc. They usually marry and have an outlet for their normal sexual drive. And other factors.

 5. Protestant clergy have been more liable to be involved in infidelity, sometimes because of their counseling which can involve them rather intimately with women parishioners who may come to discuss their unhappy marriages. This is sinful, of course, but it is not the sexual abuse of children or youth.

 6. Most clergy of whatever faith are dedicated and loyal to their vows. I feel badly that the Catholic clergy and its reputation have been sullied. What does disturb me more than the small number of abusive priests are the deliberate cover-ups by the hierarchy.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Some quick points

1. The study I referred to in #71 was the one conducted by the Boston Globe, which - as I recall - first exposed priestly abuse of children and youth in the Boston area. I’m sure it can be located through the internet. It goes back a number of years. The investigators checked out Protestant clergy and found them much less likely to be involved in pedaphilia or homosexual contact with youth.

2. I believe that most of the priestly abuse has been against youth and not children, It seemed to spring from a seeming desire of some gays (not most) to seek sex with teenage boys. It also was likely that they were more accessible because of altar boys, parochial schools, etc. I believe it's hard to defend any of this as consentual, even if the youth did not resist for whatever reasons - intimidation, infatuation, fear, etc. 

3. It is true that the sexual urge is not powerful enough so as not to be suppressed by some people. However, some of those confronting a sexual urge can find rationales that, in the 'heat' of the moment, can overcome their reason, their vows, etc. Different people seem to have different levels of intensity when it comes to sexual desire. 

4. Why are Protestant clergy less likely to abuse children and youth? Their churches are more democratic, smaller in size (usually), more like a family, and it probably is less likely that such behavior can be hidden. Moreover, in past years Protestants have been less likely to place their ministers on a pedestal. They cannot forgive sins, their words cannot turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, etc. They usually marry and have an outlet for their normal sexual drive. And other factors.

 5. Protestant clergy have been more liable to be involved in infidelity, sometimes because of their counseling which can involve them rather intimately with women parishioners who may come to discuss their unhappy marriages. This is sinful, of course, but it is not the sexual abuse of children or youth.

 6. Most clergy of whatever faith are dedicated and loyal to their vows. I feel badly that the Catholic clergy and its reputation have been sullied. What does disturb me more than the small number of abusive priests are the deliberate cover-ups by the hierarchy.

1. Protestant Churches are divided into many denominations, of all size memberships, which allows them to separate themselves from one another making such an instance appear insignificant in comparison to the largest Christian Church on earth. When in comparison, the percentages become higher in such small congregations, with the ability to separate themselves by claiming their individuality through their own denomination.

Roy, you have to realize this is a sin that crosses all borders, religious and secular. There is no 100% safe haven.

 

[Roy5]

ProdigalSon1

Yes. it is true that there is no safe haven and that sexual exploitation of children and youth can and has invaded all areas of society, I continue to find that evidence suggests that the Catholic priesthood is more afflicted by this problem that Protestant clergy, and it has little to do with the fact that Protestants have various denominations. 

 I have outlined some of the reasons for this already, including the difficulty of concealing such predators within a typical Protestant church where the clergy are usually regarded as leaders but also employees overseen and evaluated regularly (in most cases) by a lay committee of the congregation. Celibacy is a factor, too, even as the RC Church refuses to admit it. Celibacy can attract a higher percentage of men with disturbed sexuality since they may feel that it will help them cure and/or hide their problem. No one will ask why they're not married. It also fails to provide them with a healthy, God-created channel for sexual expression, which marriage does. 

 I question the whole emphasis of Catholicism re sexuality. It seems to value perpetual virginity over normal lives that include sex. In a  book of saints I have, bios of so many of the women saints begin with the one word, virgin, as though that were a major plus and qualification. Paul said it is better to marry than to burn, which should allow clergy to marry if they choose to. He also said that a bishop must be "the husband of only one wife...keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way." (I Tim. 3:2-4) That seems to have been the position of the early church, beginning with Peter who had a mother-in-law. It also is the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church, whose claim on being heir to the traditions of the earliest Christian Church is strong. 

Again, however, what may be even more distressing than abusive priests seems to have been the collusion of bishops and others in hiding the sexual crimes, and even reassigning predatory priests to other parishes. Protestantism generally has no such hierarchal authority in a position to do that. 

  It is understandable why Catholics would want to show that Protestant ministers have been as guilty as Catholic priests in sexually exploitiing children, but I don't believe the evidence for that exists. 

 Nonethess, the number of priests who have exploited children is a tiny, tiny fraction of priests. My educated guess is that there has been much, much more sexual contact between adult priests over the years. Evidence suggests that homosexuality had been rampant within the priesthood. Just how we should view that is a totally different question as it no longer is breaking the law in modern western society.  

  Let us pray for all Christian clergy that they may be men (and women) of high standards of personal morality.