Sexual activity during fertile time with NFP

[choose_to_love]

Dude! Weeks? Months? Did your bride have medical issues? Weeks or months is not typical. You are aware that an ovum is viable for 24-48 hours at most, and that the hardiest sperm can survive five days in an ideal environment? Now, more than a week I can see, especially if one was being super-cautious, and even maybe beyond two weeks (although I don’t think that would be common); however, there would be post-ovulatory phase of at least 11 to 16 days each cycle.

Upon reflection, I do agree with agape that 7-10 would be more typical, so I guess that is technically “weeks”, i.e., more than one whole week, but when coupled with months, I understood it to mean typically more than two weeks. I have seen a lot of charts (NFP instructor) but not many would need three weeks or more of abstinence if TTA.

agape: I was thinking that three would be unusual but not impossible, with clear signs, but after thinking about it that would not be conservative use, or even technically correct use, but perhaps the use of a couple with a relatively regular cycle who are not actively trying to conceive or postpone, but would be happy if blessed with another baby.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Greetings everyone on this forum. I am a Protestant, but admire and respect Catholics. I have a question for those who practice NFP. During the long time duration during the month when the wife is fertile, is it considered ok to practise some forms of sexual activity which would lead to a sexual release for the husband, but would not include intercourse, such as kissing and then other activities which would lead to a sexual release for the husband, without conventional intercourse having taken place. I’m asking this because I realize that for many husbands, the long period of abstinence could lead to sexual frustration and marital issues. I’m wondering if the Church teachings say anything about this and if Catholics who do NFP do this. personally, if my wife wanted to do NFP, but also allowed me some other forms of sexual release when intercourse wasn’t possible, I would find that that would make things much easier.

As others have already mentioned… “releases” outside of the full act of intercourse do not respect the marital embrace in it’s entirety.

As for the “long period of abstinence”… in my experience - using NFP for the 9 1/2 years of our marriage - on and off for the purpose of spacing our children - our average “wait” was no more than 7 days.

Another aspect of this is that most hormonal forms of birth control (if that’s what you’re comparing to) often have the side effect of lowering the sex-drive for the woman.
… In other words, those women who use NFP will often have a higher sex-drive than those who are on some sort of hormonal birth control.
… In other words… we make up for lost time the rest of the month … and I’m *never *“not in the mood”… to the point where my DH often refers (jokingly) to our week of abstinence as “the respite”
I guess even guys need a break once in a while.

 

[Justin1982]

My wife and I have been using NFP for the almost 7 months we’ve been married. The longest period without sex can be up to 2 weeks. I have found this pretty simple when we didn’t have sex before marriage. Abstaining establishes the soul’s dominance over the body, if we only cater to our bodies than we truly are only animals.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Dude! Weeks? Months? Did your bride have medical issues? Weeks or months is not typical. You are aware that an ovum is viable for 24-48 hours at most, and that the hardiest sperm can survive five days in an ideal environment? Now, more than a week I can see, especially if one was being super-cautious, and even maybe beyond two weeks (although I don’t think that would be common); however, there would be post-ovulatory phase of at least 11 to 16 days each cycle.

Upon reflection, I do agree with agape that 7-10 would be more typical, so I guess that is technically “weeks”, i.e., more than one whole week, but when coupled with months, I understood it to mean typically more than two weeks. I have seen a lot of charts (NFP instructor) but not many would need three weeks or more of abstinence if TTA.

agape: I was thinking that three would be unusual but not impossible, with clear signs, but after thinking about it that would not be conservative use, or even technically correct use, but perhaps the use of a couple with a relatively regular cycle who are not actively trying to conceive or postpone, but would be happy if blessed with another baby.

Yes medical issues. We learned symtpo-thermal and were supposed to stick with phase III infertility at first, which we didn’t have until 7 months later and by that time we had already given up on TTA. It seemed rather pointless to even try when we just spontaneously seemed to ovulate once or twice a year with no signs. How much time do you have to devote as an instructor? There are no instructors in our area and that made things really tough on us, so I was thinking of maybe volunteering.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Yes medical issues. We learned symtpo-thermal and were supposed to stick with phase III infertility at first, which we didn’t have until 7 months later and by that time we had already given up on TTA. It seemed rather pointless to even try when we just spontaneously seemed to ovulate once or twice a year with no signs. How much time do you have to devote as an instructor? There are no instructors in our area and that made things really tough on us, so I was thinking of maybe volunteering.

Wow… is she seeing any sort of specialist to help correct these medical issues?

If I were in this situation, I would start looking at OTHER methods of NFP (perhaps the Creighton model, which I’ve heard is very useful with medical issues)…
I LOVE the sympto-thermal, and it is quite flexible for those experiencing *fluctuations *in cycle lengths (I’ve had ranges between 20-60+ days per cycle and still found sympto-thermal useful)… however it still requires a *cycle *to track.
One to two ovulations per year hardly seems like something you can track… I’d *DEFINITELY *look into other methods if I were you!

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Wow… is she seeing any sort of specialist to help correct these medical issues?

If I were in this situation, I would start looking at OTHER methods of NFP (perhaps the Creighton model, which I’ve heard is very useful with medical issues)…
I LOVE the sympto-thermal, and it is quite flexible for those experiencing *fluctuations *in cycle lengths (I’ve had ranges between 20-60+ days per cycle and still found sympto-thermal useful)… however it still requires a *cycle *to track.
One to two ovulations per year hardly seems like something you can track… I’d *DEFINITELY *look into other methods if I were you!

Oh yea, we’re defiantly getting help on this one.

My wife took classes on Billings and Creighton but it isn’t clear that we can have any more children so we’ll just have to wait and see. Honestly, we would probably just rather have as many children as God sends us than try to deal with NFP again.

 

[1ke]

Regarding what is and isn’t allowed during the fertile times TTA: all of the manuals I’ve read have stated that basically anything is ok as long as it doesn’t leave either spouse all in a tizzy.

NFP manuals are not Catholic doctrinal sources for the morality of acts between spouses.

The Church would make a finer distinction on the morality of acts than “doesn’t leave you in a tizzy.” In fact the Church does define it more precisely: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

So acts of foreplay are ok as long as they lead to the protection of chastity and there is no undue risk of orgasm outside of intercourse.

No, this is not accurate. Acts of affection (which wouldn’t actually be foreplay since there’s nothing that will come apre) are moral when they are not genital.

Hugs, moderate kisses, back rubs, snuggling-- all of these are moral acts. *Genital *stimulation with no intention of completing the marital act is not moral.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

NFP manuals are not Catholic doctrinal sources for the morality of acts between spouses. …]

No, this is not accurate. Acts of affection (which wouldn’t actually be foreplay since there’s nothing that will come apre) are moral when they are not genital.

Hugs, moderate kisses, back rubs, snuggling-- all of these are moral acts. *Genital *stimulation with no intention of completing the marital act is not moral.

I was talking about a manual on moral theology and this is what was said:

Mutual incomplete acts which are not immediately preparatory to intercourse but take place at other times are not per se illicit; they too are virtuous and meritorious when used in moderation.

At the very least it can be said, according to solid theological authority, that incomplete mutual acts of married persons, whether in immediate preparation for intercourse or at other times, are never gravely sinful as violations of chastity unless they involve a serious and unjustifiable risk of orgasm outside the marriage act.

ia331320.us.archive.org/1/items/contemporarymora012987mbp/contemporarymora012987mbp.pdf

Masturbation is by definition a solo activity so a couple couldn’t possible engage in it together. What they are doing is performing foreplay that is preparatory to intercourse just not immediately preparatory.

 

[1ke]

Masturbation is by definition a solo activity so a couple couldn’t possible engage in it together.

No. It isn’t. The Church defines masterbation as the deliberate stimulations of the genitals to derive sexual pleasure. It does not state that it is a ‘solo’ activity. Masterbation can be solo, it can also be two people stimulating each other.

What they are doing is performing foreplay that is preparatory to intercourse just not immediately preparatory.

They have no intention of performing the act of intercourse. It is not preparatory to intercourse.

You are attempting to justify something the Church clearly teaches is not moral.

As for your quotation, a page reference would be helpful. It’s over 500 pages long.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

As for your quotation, a page reference would be helpful. It’s over 500 pages long.

Sorry ,I thought you would just use the search feature. It is on page 227 of 502 if you’re wanting to see the context.

 

[1ke]

Sorry ,I thought you would just use the search feature. It is on page 227 of 502 if you’re wanting to see the context.

tried search, it didn’t find anything. don’t know why. maybe it’s the document or maybe it’s something on my browser.

i’ll look at it.

 

[camerong]

Acts of affection (which wouldn’t actually be foreplay since there’s nothing that will come apre) are moral when they are not genital.

Hugs, moderate kisses, back rubs, snuggling-- all of these are moral acts. *Genital *stimulation with no intention of completing the marital act is not moral.

Exactly.

I have a simple rule of thumb as to what you can do outside of the marital act. If you wouldn’t do it in front of your parents, you can’t do it unless you intend it to lead to intercourse. Anything beyond that point can cause sinful pleasure which is is disordered if not involved in the martial act. And, of course, if a baby starts crying in the middle of “ramping up,” its fine to stop–the intention behind the act is what matters.

 

[PilgrimSong]

When we used NFP our average time of abstinence was 7 days, maybe a day or two more. Mostly we spaced our babies with breastfeeding and pregnancy, but after the last one 10 years ago, I had a very serious blood clot, so we practiced NFP after that to avoid. I’m going on 49 now and rarely have cycles.

Anyway, to the OP about the difficulty of abstaining…during several of our pregnancies (we have seven children) we had to abstain the entire last trimester of pregnancy for medical reasons, plus several weeks after for the normal recovery period after childbirth.

So, about 4.5 months of abstinence, I think three times during our marriage. We didn’t have intercourse OR any other kind of genital acts either together or alone. Sure it was difficult. It wasn’t our choice but we made the decision out of love for our unborn babies. And we lived!

If you would like a Biblical basis for not “spilling the seed” other than during normal intercourse between spouses, read the story of Onan in Genesis. God bless!

 

[Seatuck]

The information that I’ve read contradicts this. It’s my understanding that foreplay doesn’t necessarily have to end with intercourse. What if during foreplay, the woman experiences pain? Or a baby starts crying in the other room? If the couple ceases foreplay, is everything they’ve done to this point a sin? It’s my understanding that, so long as the man does not reach climax during foreplay, foreplay does not HAVE to lead to sexual intercourse.

Since we’re in disagreement here, I guess would encourage the OP to read Holy Sex! (or a similar Catholic-focused publication) if he wants to learn more on the topic.

The **Intent **to have intercourse must be there for serious foreplay ie stimulation of the genitals. Getting interrupted is not the same thing as intending to stop at foreplay or to finish the act at foreplay.

 

[budgie2]

Greetings everyone on this forum. I am a Protestant, but admire and respect Catholics. I have a question for those who practice NFP. During the long time duration during the month when the wife is fertile, is it considered ok to practise some forms of sexual activity which would lead to a sexual release for the husband, but would not include intercourse, such as kissing and then other activities which would lead to a sexual release for the husband, without conventional intercourse having taken place. I’m asking this because I realize that for many husbands, the long period of abstinence could lead to sexual frustration and marital issues. I’m wondering if the Church teachings say anything about this and if Catholics who do NFP do this. personally, if my wife wanted to do NFP, but also allowed me some other forms of sexual release when intercourse wasn’t possible, I would find that that would make things much easier.

Periodic abstinence isn’t used by all couples and I personally make love freely to my husband and put conception in God’s hands. If the period of abstinence is causing problems and you want to prevent conception then Fertility Awareness Method which is using barrier methods during a couple’s fertile time is quite ethical, and better than some Catholics.

 

[agapewolf]

Periodic abstinence isn’t used by all couples and I personally make love freely to my husband and put conception in God’s hands. If the period of abstinence is causing problems and you want to prevent conception then Fertility Awareness Method which is using barrier methods during a couple’s fertile time is quite ethical, and better than some Catholics.

This is not church teaching, and not correct. It is not ethical, as it is against natural law.

 

[Lypher]

Periodic abstinence isn’t used by all couples and I personally make love freely to my husband and put conception in God’s hands. If the period of abstinence is causing problems and you want to prevent conception then Fertility Awareness Method which is using barrier methods during a couple’s fertile time is quite ethical, and better than some Catholics.

I am currently in RCIA and your standard of ethics is different then everything I have read from the Roman Catholic Church. Which standard are you using? Can you provide me the reference in the Catechism of the Catholic Church because I can only find NFP, and only for truly unselfish reasons. I would really like to know where you are getting this teaching as I personally believe what I have read so far, but a lot of Catholics seem to have the same teaching as you do and I wanted to know if this is one of the wrong teachings that some of the liberal Priests are espousing, or truly a valid teaching. I don’t want to lead someone wrong as that in itself is a very bad sin. I want to be sure that if I tell someone that barrier methods are ethical, and I am trying to practice Catholicism, that I am actually correct and well formed… Thank you.

 

[budgie2]

I am currently in RCIA and your standard of ethics is different then everything I have read from the Roman Catholic Church. Which standard are you using? Can you provide me the reference in the Catechism of the Catholic Church because I can only find NFP, and only for truly unselfish reasons. I would really like to know where you are getting this teaching as I personally believe what I have read so far, but a lot of Catholics seem to have the same teaching as you do and I wanted to know if this is one of the wrong teachings that some of the liberal Priests are espousing, or truly a valid teaching. I don’t want to lead someone wrong as that in itself is a very bad sin. I want to be sure that if I tell someone that barrier methods are ethical, and I am trying to practice Catholicism, that I am actually correct and well formed… Thank you.

It is widely known in the Church that non-spermicidal barrier methods (condom, diaphragm and cervical cap) are the second best to full blown NFP and some couples use barrier methods during their fertile periods only. Barrier methods respect the natural fertility cycle of ovulation and production of sperm and don’t cause permanent infertility. It is also a mortal sin to choose a method of contraception that destroys a fertilised egg as many Catholics believe life begins at conception. Barrier methods keep the egg and sperm apart and only destroy sperm. Destroying sperm on it’s own is a venial sin.

This is a list of the contraception it is absolutely forbidden to use if you become a Catholic and are mortal sin. It is not a Catholic website but is a prolife website and the Catholic Church is pro-life.

spuc.org.uk/documents/papers/BirthControlBooklet.pdf

 

[PaulinVA]

It is widely known in the Church that non-spermicidal barrier methods (condom, diaphragm and cervical cap) are the second best to full blown NFP and some couples use barrier methods during their fertile periods only.

It is also well known in the Church that these methods are sinful.

 

[Seatuck]

It is widely known in the Church that non-spermicidal barrier methods (condom, diaphragm and cervical cap) are the second best to full blown NFP and some couples use barrier methods during their fertile periods only. Barrier methods respect the natural fertility cycle of ovulation and production of sperm and don’t cause permanent infertility. It is also a mortal sin to choose a method of contraception that destroys a fertilised egg as many Catholics believe life begins at conception. Barrier methods keep the egg and sperm apart and only destroy sperm. Destroying sperm on it’s own is a venial sin.

This is a list of the contraception it is absolutely forbidden to use if you become a Catholic and are mortal sin. It is not a Catholic website but is a prolife website and the Catholic Church is pro-life.

spuc.org.uk/documents/papers/BirthControlBooklet.pdf

You have been repeatedly told that the church considers barrier methods to be sinful. Why do you persist in encouraging Catholics to sin?