Sexual concessions to married couples and homosexuality

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Do you really that a wife, really in love for her husband, is going to refuse to be touched on all her body by her own husband with love and tenderness, in the human fashion, like foreplay (before), during and after the complete union of bodies?

Do you really that a husband, really in love for his wife, is going to refuse to be touched on all his body by his own wife with love and tenderness, in the human fashion, before and during the complete union of bodies?
This whole “in human fashion” business is totally putting me off. I mean, why not say that homosexuals could engage in foreplay “in human fashion” too? Is the phrase “in human fashion” simply a phrase used to justify an action that had been previously morally questionable?

Moreover, do I think that a wife might legitimately not want to kiss her husband that way? Yes, I do. And I think it is verges on marital rape for a husband to use his reasoning capacities to try and convince his wife to do something she doesn’t want to do.
The caresses are totally human.
As opposed to the caresses of homosexuals? Are these somehow inhuman? :confused:
 
This whole “in human fashion” business is totally putting me off. I mean, why not say that homosexuals could engage in foreplay “in human fashion” too? Is the phrase “in human fashion” simply a phrase used to justify an action that had been previously morally questionable?

Moreover, do I think that a wife might legitimately not want to kiss her husband that way? Yes, I do. And I think it is verges on marital rape for a husband to use his reasoning capacities to try and convince his wife to do something she doesn’t want to do.

As opposed to the caresses of homosexuals? Are these somehow inhuman? :confused:
Okay, it is a good idea, I will make some efforts of not posting so many posts in a row.

For information:

“In the human manner” is coming from the Canon Law. What means the respect of the natural moral order of the marital act, in three moments (before, during and after).

In the canon law:

Can. 1061 §1 A valid marriage between baptised persons is said to be merely ratified, if it is not consummated; ratified and consummated, if the spouses have in a human manner engaged together in a conjugal act in itself apt for the generation of offspring. To this act marriage is by its nature ordered and by it the spouses become one flesh.

**
If the spouses have in a human manner engaged together in a conjugal act in itself apt for the generation of offspring. To this act marriage is by its nature ordered and by it the spouses become one flesh???**

Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1° those who lack sufficient use of reason;

2° those who suffer from a grave lack of discretionary judgement concerning the essential matrimonial rights and obligations to be mutually given and accepted;

The essential matrimonial rights and obligations to be mutually given and accepted, conjugally sexually speaking???

3° those who, because of causes of a psychological nature, are unable to assume the essential obligations of marriage.
**
The essential obligations of marriage, conjugally sexually speaking???**

Can. 1096 §1 For matrimonial consent to exist, it is necessary that the contracting parties be at least not ignorant of the fact that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman, ordered to the procreation of children through some form of sexual cooperation.
**
Through some form of sexual cooperation, conjugally sexually speaking???**

Of course that yes that the anal sex and the oral sex are morally wrong, by nature and per se. Do we have the same acception of definitions?? That is the question???
The oral stimulation of sexual external parts of the other is not oral sex. The oral stimulation is not oral sodomy or oral masturbation. The oral sex is oral sodomy (morally wrong per se). The manual stimulation of sexual external parts of the other is not masturbation, the digital stimulation of sexual external parts of the other is not masturbation.

By nature the sexual caresse has to be practiced, only, in the sexual alterity and in the sexual complementarity, within marriage between husband and wife. The sexuality is for the marriage for one male with one female. The marital act implies sexual alterity and sexual alterity, and also foreplay, an union per se and and an after. The body of male is done for the body of female and vice versa.
 
This whole “in human fashion” business is totally putting me off. I mean, why not say that homosexuals could engage in foreplay “in human fashion” too? Is the phrase “in human fashion” simply a phrase used to justify an action that had been previously morally questionable?

Moreover, do I think that a wife might legitimately not want to kiss her husband that way? Yes, I do. And I think it is verges on marital rape for a husband to use his reasoning capacities to try and convince his wife to do something she doesn’t want to do.

As opposed to the caresses of homosexuals? Are these somehow inhuman? :confused:
In the catholic perspective of the naturality of the sexuality, the sexual intimate caresses between two men or two women are against the natural moral law of the human nature. In the catholicism and in the meta-moral, in meta-theology, in meta-ethics the sexual caresses of homosexuals, whatever the forms, are morally wrong, by nature, per se, in themselves, of themselves, by themselves, from themselves, for themselves.

The sexual intimate caresses are made for a male (husband) with a female (wife), in the context of the marital act.

Of course that yes that the sexual caresses of homosexuals are somehow inhuman, in the way where these acts do not respect the sexual alterity and the sexual complementarity wanted by the Creator.
 
These are some questions to ask before the wedding, between the fiancé and the fiancée, about the marital act in order to avoid difficulties. Are we on the same page, conjugally sexually speaking, intellectually speaking? The modus operandi of the conjugal physical love of the marital act is very essential and very important for each member of couple, in my humble opinion.

Is she a manichaean person ? Is she a cathar person? Is she a jansenist person? Is she a quietist person? Is she a fideist person? Is she a theoretical providentialist person? Is she a quiverfull person? Is she a puritan person? Is she a victorian person? Is she a moralist person? Is she a rigorist person? Is she an externalist person? Is she a judgmentalist person? Is she a pharisaical person? Is she a naive person? Is she a shy person? Is she an uptight person? Is she a prudish person? Is she an angelical person? Is she a scrupulous person? Is she an obsessed person by the sins of the conjugal flesh? Does she see the near occasion of sins of the conjugal flesh, very easily? Is she a radical feminist person? Is she a primary anti-personalist person? Does she want to be an Eve? Is she ready for the conjugal carnal love, in the human manner, with all natural corollaries? Is she ready for the conjugal sexual cooperation with him? Is she against the sexual foreplay? Does she want sexual foreplay? Does she want to be like a nun? Does she want to act like a nun? Does she wish a “conjugal monk” within her couple? For her, what are the different aspects of state of spouse? Is she a follower of Ronald Conte Jr’s theology (the morality of modus operandi of the marital act and Co)? Is she a follower of Colleen Hammond (Modesty and Co)? Is she a follower of Dr Jay Boyd (N.F.P. and Co)? Is she a follower of Raylan Alleman (submissive wife and Co)? Does she know the Song of Songs? Is she ready for being a spouse / wife what means to be a female lover, a mistress, a girlfriend, a female best friend, a female soulmate, a female beloved, a helper, a female? Is she ready for learning with him? Is she ready for being teacher, professor, master, schoolgirl, student, learner, follower and conjugal lover, in his favor?

Is he a manichaean person ? Is he a cathar person? Is he a jansenist person? Is he a quietist person? Is he a fideist person? is he a theoretical providentialist person? Is he a quiverfull person? Is he a puritan person? Is he a victorian person? Is he a moralist person? Is he a rigorist person? Is he an externalist person? Is he a judgmentalist person? Is he a pharisaical person? Is he a naive person? Is she a shy person? Is he an uptight person? Is he a prudish person? Is he an angelical person? is he a scrupulous person? is he an obsessed person by the sins of the conjugal flesh? Does he see the near occasion of sins of the conjugal flesh, very easily? Is she a radical masculinist person? Is he a primary anti-personalist person? Does he want to be an Adam? is he ready for the conjugal carnal love, in the human fashion, with all natural corollaries? Is he ready for the conjugal sexual cooperation with her? Is he against the sexual foreplay? Does he want sexual foreplay? Does he want to be like a monk/friar/priest? Does he want to act like a monk/friar/priest? Does he wish a “conjugal nun” within his couple? For him, what are the different aspects of state of spouse? Is he a follower of Ronald Conte Jr’s theology (the morality of modus operandi of the marital act and Co)? Is he a follower of Colleen Hammond (modesty and Co)? Is he a follower of Dr Jay Boyd (N.F.P. and Co)? Is he a follower of Raylan Alleman (submissive wife and Co)? Does he know the Song of Songs? Is he ready for being a spouse / husband what means to be a male lover, a love master, a boyfriend, a male best friend, a male soulmate, a male beloved, a helper, a male? Is he ready for learning with her? Is he ready for being teacher, professor, master, schoolboy, student, learner, follower and conjugal lover, in her favor?
 
Other questions:

Does she agree with practicing the conjugal sex during pregnancy, during her own periods, during breastfeeding, during her own fertile times, during her own infertile times, during her menopause, after her menopause? When is she ready to practice the marital act: on sunday, during Advent, during Lent, during Holy week, during ash wednesday, during Holy Friday?

Where is she ready to have sexual intercourses? Why is she okay with the marital act? What are her intentions for having conjugal sex? How does she want to have marital sex? How often is she ready to have the marital sex? How many times is she ready to have the marital sex? Is she ready for being touched and for touching, sexually speaking? Does she agree with the intimate touchings? Is she ready to be a passive lover and an active lover? What is her acception of sin of masturbation? What is her acception of sin of oral sex? What is her acception of sin of sodomy? Does she refuse the oral stimulation on her? Does she refuse the oral stimulation on him? Does she agree with the notion of the marital debt? Does she agree with the presumption of the agreement of the marital act between the spouses? Does she agree with the presumption of the agreement of the intimate touchings between the spouses?

Where? When? Why? What For? How? How manner? How often? How many times? How fast?..etc.

Does he agree with practicing the conjugal sex during pregnancy, during her periods, during breastfeeding, during her fertile times, during her infertile times, during the menopause, after her menopause? When is he ready to practice the marital act? When is he ready to practice the marital act: on sunday, during Advent, during Lent, during Holy week, during ash wednesday, during Holy Friday?

Where is he ready to have sexual intercourses? Why is he okay with the marital act? What are his intentions for having conjugal sex? How does he want to have marital sex? How often is he ready to have the marital sex? Is he ready for being touched and for touching, sexually speaking? Does he agree with the intimate touchings? Is he ready to be a passive lover and an active lover? What is his acception of sin of masturbation? What is his acception of sin of oral sex? What is his acception of sin of sodomy? Does he refuse the oral stimulation on him? Does he refuse the oral stimulation on her? Does he agree with the notion of the marital debt? Does he agree with the presumption of the agreement of the marital act between the spouses? Does he agree with the presumption of the agreement of the intimate touchings between the spouses?

Where? When? Why? What For? How? How manner? How often? How many times? How fast?..etc.
 
Other questions:

Does she agree with practicing the conjugal sex during pregnancy, during her own periods, during breastfeeding, during her own fertile times, during her own infertile times, during her menopause, after her menopause? When is she ready to practice the marital act: on sunday, during Advent, during Lent, during Holy week, during ash wednesday, during Holy Friday?

Where is she ready to have sexual intercourses? Why is she okay with the marital act? What are her intentions for having conjugal sex? How does she want to have marital sex? How often is she ready to have the marital sex? How many times is she ready to have the marital sex? Is she ready for being touched and for touching, sexually speaking? Does she agree with the intimate touchings? Is she ready to be a passive lover and an active lover? What is her acception of sin of masturbation? What is her acception of sin of oral sex? What is her acception of sin of sodomy? Does she refuse the oral stimulation on her? Does she refuse the oral stimulation on him? Does she agree with the notion of the marital debt? Does she agree with the presumption of the agreement of the marital act between the spouses? Does she agree with the presumption of the agreement of the intimate touchings between the spouses?

Where? When? Why? What For? How? How manner? How often? How many times? How fast?..etc.

Does he agree with practicing the conjugal sex during pregnancy, during her periods, during breastfeeding, during her fertile times, during her infertile times, during the menopause, after her menopause? When is he ready to practice the marital act? When is he ready to practice the marital act: on sunday, during Advent, during Lent, during Holy week, during ash wednesday, during Holy Friday?

Where is he ready to have sexual intercourses? Why is he okay with the marital act? What are his intentions for having conjugal sex? How does he want to have marital sex? How often is he ready to have the marital sex? Is he ready for being touched and for touching, sexually speaking? Does he agree with the intimate touchings? Is he ready to be a passive lover and an active lover? What is his acception of sin of masturbation? What is his acception of sin of oral sex? What is his acception of sin of sodomy? Does he refuse the oral stimulation on him? Does he refuse the oral stimulation on her? Does he agree with the notion of the marital debt? Does he agree with the presumption of the agreement of the marital act between the spouses? Does he agree with the presumption of the agreement of the intimate touchings between the spouses?

Where? When? Why? What For? How? How manner? How often? How many times? How fast?..etc.
I just have one question: how do you find the time to write out all of this? And why do you consider it worth your time?
 
I was about to mention that. I read it in Spanish and in moral theology st Alfonso does condemn sodomy.
So does Thomas Aquinas:

Summa Theologica Questions 94 Article 3

“Certain special sins are said to be against nature, as it is against the union of male and female, which is natural to all animals, that two men should seek sexual union, which especially is called a vice against nature.”
 
So does Thomas Aquinas:

Summa Theologica Questions 94 Article 3

“Certain special sins are said to be against nature, as it is against the union of male and female, which is natural to all animals, that two men should seek sexual union, which especially is called a vice against nature.”
No, we mean condemn heterosexual sodomy (as well as homosexual sodomy).

Unlike the other man mentioned in this thread who wrote a book titled Moral Theology St. Alphonsus is a saint and a Doctor of the Church which lends quite a bit of support to his positions.
 
Again, others questions

Is she in favor of sexual preliminaries? Does she agree with the phenomenology of the marital act? Is she in favor of an “Ars Erotica” of the marital act? Is she in favor of a “scientia sexualis” of the marital act? Does she agree with the fact of giving sexual privileges to her husband? For her, what are they? Does she agree with the fact that the marital act is a remedy to the concupiscence? Does she agree with the fact that she has to be, in a certain way, to the physical disposition of her husband? Her body is his body, is she agree with that?

Is he in favor of sexual preliminaries? Does he agree with the phenomenology of the marital act? Is he in favor of an “Ars Erotica” of the marital act? Is he in favor of a “scientia sexualis” of the marital act? Does he agree with the fact of giving sexual privileges to his husband? For him, what are they? Does he agree with the fact that the marital act is a remedy to the concupiscence? Does he agree with the fact that he has to be, in a certain way, to the physical disposition of his wife? His body is her body, is he agree with that?
 
Again, others questions

Is she in favor of sexual preliminaries? Does she agree with the phenomenology of the marital act? Is she in favor of an “Ars Erotica” of the marital act? Is she in favor of a “scientia sexualis” of the marital act? Does she agree with the fact of giving sexual privileges to her husband? For her, what are they? Does she agree with the fact that the marital act is a remedy to the concupiscence? Does she agree with the fact that she has to be, in a certain way, to the physical disposition of her husband? Her body is his body, is she agree with that?

Is he in favor of sexual preliminaries? Does he agree with the phenomenology of the marital act? Is he in favor of an “Ars Erotica” of the marital act? Is he in favor of a “scientia sexualis” of the marital act? Does he agree with the fact of giving sexual privileges to his wife? For him, what are they? Does he agree with the fact that the marital act is a remedy to the concupiscence? Does he agree with the fact that he has to be, in a certain way, to the physical disposition of his wife? His body is her body, is he agree with that?
Morally speaking, is she on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act? Psychologically speaking and mentally speaking, is she on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act?

Morally speaking, is he on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act? Psychologically speaking and mentally speaking, is he on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act?
 
No, we mean condemn heterosexual sodomy (as well as homosexual sodomy).

Unlike the other man mentioned in this thread who wrote a book titled Moral Theology St. Alphonsus is a saint and a Doctor of the Church which lends quite a bit of support to his positions.
Yes st alphonsus condemns all kinds of sodomy and if I remember correctly he linked it to lust.
 
Morally speaking, is she on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act? Psychologically speaking and mentally speaking, is she on the same page than him concerning the modus operandi of the marital act?

Morally speaking, is he on the same page than her concerning the modus operandi of the marital act? Psychologically speaking and mentally speaking, is he on the same page *than her *concerning the modus operandi of the marital act?
Are they compatible, him and her?
 
And I think it is verges on marital rape for a husband to use his reasoning capacities to try and convince his wife to do something she doesn’t want to do.

Between wife and husband, per se, even about the conjugal sexuality, *the debates, the discussions, the talks, the use of some reasonning for trying to convince the other of doing something, even if at the start the spouse did not want, are not immoral, by themselves. *In the marriage, the sexual efforts and also the sexual sacrifices, in positive and in negative (to do or not to do), are the general rules: to please her, to please him, to satisfy him, to satisfy her. In the couple, the dialogue between faith and reason and reason and faith is the rule. There are differences between to force (using violence) and the fact of convincing.

Of course that yes, a marital rape can exist, between wife and husband. But, by principle, there is a presumption of agreement for the marital act and for the natural corollaries. This presumption is, only, simple, the contrary proof has to be accepted in lawsuit and in natural moral.
 
As someone new to thinking about catholic theology - including the prohibitions - I find this conversation interesting to say the least!

I’m not sure if it was raised in this thread (I’ve read most of it, but not all) but the natural law seems to be that we should use our bodies as they were designed - for their right end. Am I right?

Then I ask what the right end of a clitoris is. Why do women have such an organ? It appears as if the “right end” of the clitoris is sexual stimulation. So how does a husband use his wife’s clitoris to it’s right end?

Appealing that the right end of the mouth is for eating doesn’t seem right - because we have no compunction with kissing. So it seems that we are comfortable with dual purposes of our bodies. The tongue has its right end in shoveling food towards the throat, as well as kissing. The fingers and thumbs also have multiple “right end” uses.

So it baffles me! If oral stimulation not leading to orgasm (I think that is debatable, but anyway…) is the right use of the clitoris, and masturbation is a sin - then what part of a man’s body can be used to properly use the clitoris as designed?

That is my first issue!

My second is the division of the sex act into that which leads to orgasm and that which doesn’t. I do see the act as one whole act, and it is not that the final thrust that leads to orgasm is “rightly ordered” and everything else leading up to that act is mutual masturbation. We know that to achieve that final end, that there must be arousal, and there must be vaginal lubrication. If the sex act is divided into components rather than viewed as a whole, we must then consider that there are acts that don’t lead to the orgasm but instead lead to the erection or vaginal lubrication which then lead to orgasm.

The whole thing seems to be a causal chain and you have to have all of the links in the chain to get to the end! That does seem to be how our bodies were designed - so that natural design of our bodies doesn’t seem to lend itself well to this division model of sex - but instead more to this view of sex as one whole act.

Am I right, according to catholic theology?

For reference - I’m ex protestant about to start RCIA. I didn’t know what to call my “reliigon”.
 
As someone new to thinking about catholic theology - including the prohibitions - I find this conversation interesting to say the least!

I’m not sure if it was raised in this thread (I’ve read most of it, but not all) but the natural law seems to be that we should use our bodies as they were designed - for their right end. Am I right?

Then I ask what the right end of a clitoris is. Why do women have such an organ? It appears as if the “right end” of the clitoris is sexual stimulation. So how does a husband use his wife’s clitoris to it’s right end?

Appealing that the right end of the mouth is for eating doesn’t seem right - because we have no compunction with kissing. So it seems that we are comfortable with dual purposes of our bodies. The tongue has its right end in shoveling food towards the throat, as well as kissing. The fingers and thumbs also have multiple “right end” uses.

So it baffles me! If oral stimulation not leading to orgasm (I think that is debatable, but anyway…) is the right use of the clitoris, and masturbation is a sin - then what part of a man’s body can be used to properly use the clitoris as designed?

That is my first issue!

My second is the division of the sex act into that which leads to orgasm and that which doesn’t. I do see the act as one whole act, and it is not that the final thrust that leads to orgasm is “rightly ordered” and everything else leading up to that act is mutual masturbation. We know that to achieve that final end, that there must be arousal, and there must be vaginal lubrication. If the sex act is divided into components rather than viewed as a whole, we must then consider that there are acts that don’t lead to the orgasm but instead lead to the erection or vaginal lubrication which then lead to orgasm.

The whole thing seems to be a causal chain and you have to have all of the links in the chain to get to the end! That does seem to be how our bodies were designed - so that natural design of our bodies doesn’t seem to lend itself well to this division model of sex - but instead more to this view of sex as one whole act.

Am I right, according to catholic theology?

For reference - I’m ex protestant about to start RCIA. I didn’t know what to call my “reliigon”.
Seems to me that your approach here is a logical fallacy. A person is more than the sum of their physical parts. Attempting to identify the final end of the person by attempting to find the final end of some part of person doesn’t work.
 
Seems to me that your approach here is a logical fallacy. A person is more than the sum of their physical parts. Attempting to identify the final end of the person by attempting to find the final end of some part of person doesn’t work.
I am not attempting to identify the final end of the person. We are talking about acts here - not personhood. Are you suggesting there isn’t a use for individual body parts but only for the body as a whole?
 
Seems to me that your approach here is a logical fallacy. A person is more than the sum of their physical parts. Attempting to identify the final end of the person by attempting to find the final end of some part of person doesn’t work.
In the context of the marital act:

The husband has the natural right of touching, in the human manner, the sexual external parts of his wife: his sexual caresses, in her favor. The modus operandi of the marital act is not angelic, here the immateriality is not human and not relevant. The husband can and has to use his hands, his fingers, his lips of mouth, his tongue for stimulating in order to excite, to open, and in order to give pleasure on all erogenous parts of her body. Those acts of tenderness and of conjugal sexual carnal love are moral. Here, the husband is not a masturbator: it is not a sin of masturbation. The husband can and has to kiss, to massage, to lick, to suck, to caresse, to touch, in the human fashion, with love and tenderness, the body of his wife. The preliminaries and the sexual preliminaries, like that, are not sins. The right of the wife to be touched by her husband. She has right to expect to receive sexual intimate caresses. The oral stimulation on her, the manual stimulation on her, the digital stimulation on her, even on external her sexual parts are totally catholic: sexual privileges of marriage for her and for him, to give and to receive. Wife has right to be prepared by her husband, in the human manner.

The same reasoning for the wife and her husband. Only, oral sex and anal sodomy are, per se, totally immoral.
 
I am not attempting to identify the final end of the person. We are talking about acts here - not personhood. Are you suggesting there isn’t a use for individual body parts but only for the body as a whole?
No, I am not suggesting that. The appropriate uses of the individual parts are intimately connected to the purpose of the person.
 
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