Sexual concessions to married couples and homosexuality

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on_the_hill said:
Not that I agree with Prodgirl, because I’d never do that, 😛 but NFP sure seems like it could be used as a form of contraception, with a wink and a nod. Why else is it called Natural Family Planning? It’s a way of timing pregnancies. Which means there are times when a couple uses it to have a baby. And there are, by definition, times when a couple uses it to not have a baby.

Otherwise, what’s the point? Just do it all the time, I guess. Sometimes she’s fertile, sometimes she’s not. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

As soon as you start charting, you identify the fertile periods (supposedly–I have my doubts). Therefore, you identify infertile periods. So unless a couple is chaste during the infertile periods, and only having sex during the fertile periods, they are necessarily practicing a form of non-pharmaceutical contraception.

My wife and I did it for a while when we were trying to have our first child. She exhibited what were thought to be fertility problems, so we wanted to know for sure what was going on. Turns out it didn’t matter. What medical science and NFP both told us was wrong: she got pregnant despite the data.

And…and! And on this very forum, whenever a person posts about risks a woman may face with pregnancy–situations where a doctor has warned against pregnancy–the advice is always “practice NFP.” Practive NFP to avoid the risk of a dangerous pregnancy. Which is…drum roll…contracepting.
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It is important to distinguish two facts.

The Church teaches that NFP may indeed be employed by a couple for serious/just/grave reasons.
The Church does not teach that one must use NFP at all.

NFP is a choice. One may choose to employ it or not. And either choice is valid.
 
Thinking10 said:
Is it about the child’s welfare or the gay couple’s satisfaction? There are more differences between men and women than anatomy. I certainly wouldn’t want to be raised by two men or two women who are partners. A man and a woman can provide a child with an upbringing that a couple made of only men or only women cannot provide.
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But that is not the Church’s stance really. Otherwise it would be child abuse for me to be the stay at home dad. What it is is the entire nature of homosexual relationships being contrary to what the set of of the family is.
 
Prodigirl said:
Is the objective of a gay couple wanting to adopt a child from an United States orphanage an issue of moral significance?
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Yes it is. The child will never experience either a real mother figure or a real father figure in his/her life. They will be subjected to either two fathers or two mothers. This is basically and perfectly wrong.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
As Cardinal the current Pope called it a form of discrimination against children. De facto child abuse.
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Yeah, I guess it would be better to leave unloved and unwanted in an institution. That would be the kinder thing …
 
Prodigirl said:
Yeah, I guess it would be better to leave unloved and unwanted in an institution. That would be the kinder thing …
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That is not what he said is it? But it is a false idea to think that those are the two choices, not with so many couples who want to adopt but either can’t or can’t afford it. I am pretty sure His Holiness has a better grasp on actual orphanages than you or I.
 
Prodigirl said:
Yeah, I guess it would be better to leave unloved and unwanted in an institution. That would be the kinder thing …
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Does anyone have any actual statistics about this? Our are we going to say, “even one is to many?” :rolleyes:

How many children are in foster care? How many children are adopted on an annual basis? How many children are adopted out of the foster care system annually? I’d like to see the numbers by age: how many infants, how many 1 year olds, how many 2 year olds, etc. By sex? Race?

I’d bet my mortgage payment that as a child ages the probability of being adopted goes way down.

How many children age out of the foster care system without having a permanent placement?

What’s the cost of adopting, by state? By sector (public adoption system, private agency)? What are the income levels of the adoptive parents?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Yes it is. The child will never experience either a real mother figure or a real father figure in his/her life. They will be subjected to either two fathers or two mothers. This is basically and perfectly wrong.
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Your response conjures up images of a child being “raised” in a bubble, an environment of isolation and loneliness. Gay people have extended families, and they are not just made up of other gay people. These children would experience mother figures, gay and straight, and father figures, gay and straight, through this extended family, much like hetero families, whether you know it or not. They would never know their own biological mothers or fathers under any circumstances while in the system as minors. Fostering and adopting are based on providing substitutes for these “figureheads”. I do not see how permitting a gay person or a gay couple to raise a parentless child is morally unsound.

My 40-year-old stepdaughter has been fostering a child, now age 18, for the last five years. This child had previously been in eleven foster homes, each time returned to the system because the foster parents gave up on her. This kid is thriving and learning through her foster mom and their extended family. This once cast-away child, with learning disabilities and PTSD from abusive natural parents, is now considering which college to attend. My stepdaughter is immersed in the plight of the homeless, creating safe havens for street people, enacting changes in her regional communities to help those who are unable to help themselves. The child is active in endeavors that enrich her world, and their world, because her foster mother is endowed with compassion, insight, business savvy and love.

Her mother is a lesbian.

To pretend that gay people have nothing to offer children in a setting of fostering or adopting is just plain ignorant. Gay does not equal pedophile. Gay does not equal immoral. Gay does not equal some other species not created by God.

The word “catholic” means all-embracing. Does the name Catholic mean “conditionally embracing”?
 
Prodigirl said:
The word “catholic” means all-embracing. Does the name Catholic mean “conditionally embracing”?
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Catholic means “all embracing” That is a new one. I have never heard that.

But of course we are not “all embracing” Should we be?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Catholic means “all embracing” That is a new one. I have never heard that.

But of course we are not “all embracing” Should we be?
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What I said was, “the word ‘catholic’ means all-embracing.” Look it up. There is a distinction between catholic and Catholic.

What in the world do you mean, “But of course we are not ‘all embracing’. Should we be?”?? Are you a Christian? Do I need to turn you around 180 degrees and point you back to your Main Man and Savior, Jesus Christ? Does your bible actually contain a New Testament?
 
Prodigirl said:
What I said was, “the word ‘catholic’ means all-embracing.” Look it up. There is a distinction between catholic and Catholic.

What in the world do you mean, “But of course we are not ‘all embracing’. Should we be?”?? Are you a Christian? Do I need to turn you around 180 degrees and point you back to your Main Man and Savior, Jesus Christ? Does your bible actually contain a New Testament?
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Catholic comes from the Greek and means “universal.” It was used to describe the Church not being limited to geography, race (which was a huge deal in religion) And economic status. It originated to describe the universality of the religion across the Roman Empire.

It does not mean all embracing the way you wish it use it any more than Islam means “peace”

We cannot embrace all. I am sure even you do not wish to. Do you wish to embrace child molesters, murderers, rapists? Unrepentant ones? Ones who still commit these horrible crimes? Will that be what heaven is like? Murdering rapists?

Or do we not include things that are against God, holiness and are for evil?

The point is that I could find examples of murderers, gangsters, cheaters, and yes, even child molesters being good parents.
 
on_the_hill said:
Does anyone have any actual statistics about this? Our are we going to say, “even one is to many?” :rolleyes:

How many children are in foster care? How many children are adopted on an annual basis? How many children are adopted out of the foster care system annually? I’d like to see the numbers by age: how many infants, how many 1 year olds, how many 2 year olds, etc. By sex? Race?

I’d bet my mortgage payment that as a child ages the probability of being adopted goes way down.

How many children age out of the foster care system without having a permanent placement?

What’s the cost of adopting, by state? By sector (public adoption system, private agency)? What are the income levels of the adoptive parents?
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13.1% and climbing, also the remainder doesn’t exclude the number that are unable to be adopted (where the parents have not renounced their rights).
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Catholic comes from the Greek and means “universal.” It was used to describe the Church not being limited to geography, race (which was a huge deal in religion) And economic status. It originated to describe the universality of the religion across the Roman Empire.

It does not mean all embracing the way you wish it use it any more than Islam means “peace”

We cannot embrace all. I am sure even you do not wish to. Do you wish to embrace child molesters, murderers, rapists? Unrepentant ones? Ones who still commit these horrible crimes? Will that be what heaven is like? Murdering rapists?

Or do we not include things that are against God, holiness and are for evil?

The point is that I could find examples of murderers, gangsters, cheaters, and yes, even child molesters being good parents.
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Ah, another lost post. Well, here goes, one more time:

We can embrace all. That does not mean we endorse all. We can pray for those who have sunk to evil deeds. We can become active in outreach to contribute to the rehabilitation of criminals. Not everyone who is imprisoned for murder committed his or her crime with malice aforethought. What about mental illness? Why can we not support community efforts to make services more widely available to those who are suffering from mental illness and have perhaps committed heinous crimes due to being untreated?

If you are a practicing Catholic you fully subscribe to the idea that heaven is a place where unrepentant murdering thieves and rapists and gangsters and cheaters and child molesters do not go. Why did you even bring it up? Is this a reflection of some kind of doubt in your belief? Do not speak for me. We should not exclude anything from activities we can take individually or collectively to contribute to the redemption of these souls. Get off your pedestal.
 
Prodigirl said:
Ah, another lost post. Well, here goes, one more time:

We can embrace all. That does not mean we endorse all. We can pray for those who have sunk to evil deeds. We can become active in outreach to contribute to the rehabilitation of criminals. Not everyone who is imprisoned for murder committed his or her crime with malice aforethought. What about mental illness? Why can we not support community efforts to make services more widely available to those who are suffering from mental illness and have perhaps committed heinous crimes due to being untreated?

If you are a practicing Catholic you fully subscribe to the idea that heaven is a place where unrepentant murdering thieves and rapists and gangsters and cheaters and child molesters do not go. Why did you even bring it up? Is this a reflection of some kind of doubt in your belief? Do not speak for me. We should not exclude anything from activities we can take individually or collectively to contribute to the redemption of these souls. Get off your pedestal.
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You are all over the map there. Not sure exactly what to address. My pedestal is on the Foundation of Christ.
 
LongingSoul said:
It’s a relief to see Prodigirl and all her posts gone…
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I liked her. Sure, she was annoying sometimes, but so am I. I will try to remember to pray for her. And I hope, if she reads this, she will pray for me as well.
 
Prodigal_Son said:
I liked her. Sure, she was annoying sometimes, but so am I. I will try to remember to pray for her. And I hope, if she reads this, she will pray for me as well.
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She may very well be a great person, but at times you have discern how an invalid formula (I’m Catholic but deny many fundamental tenets of Catholicism) affects the integrity of the whole equation (discussion looking to reveal the true position of the Church on an issue.) May God bless her search.
 
She’s gone? As in banned? Or gone as in left voluntarily?

I hope she wasn’t banned.
 
Rau said:
Why is that?
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She was arguing a point and refused to agree. That’s not a basis for banning. Or, at least, it shouldn’t be. If she was banned, it sends the message that everyone is welcome here, except Catholics who disagree with us.
 
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