Sexual Denial, and Sin

[Magicsilence]

The Catholic Ideal is More sex is worse sex, and less sex is best sex. This protects against the abuse of each other, and keeps the dignity of both husband and wife protected.

I don’t think is true at all.

Couples can certainly abstain from relations, and it is considered a holy thing to do, especially if done as part of a fast in the lead up to a feast. However, ‘less sex is best sex’ is really subjective, and not being married myself, I’d wager the subject is highly dependent on the couple involved!

You can’t really make ‘carte blanche’ statements like this.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Maybe your wife didnt stop having sex with you because she didnt want anymore Kids, but perhaps she felt like you were using her as a sexaul object for your own base lustful filled desires. Perhaps this made her despise the very thought of having sex with you, and made her lose any remaining respect she had for you each time you would have sex. So maybe not having sex with her for all these years is the one thing thats actually helped rather then hindered your marriage, maybe you have grown into a more respectful man in her eyes …

You should read the entire thread before jumping to conclusions. The OP stated that his wife enjoys demeaning him, calling him names, ridiculing his ministerial works, etc. It’s destroying his self- esteem.

It’s great he’s getting counseling. I hope he can get her to go to counseling as well. If I were him I would tape her tirades and take them to a counselor with her. Sometimes people refuse to acknowledge how obnoxious they are until they are confronted with irrefutable evidence.
Their marriage as he is being forced to live it is not valid. No sex for 14 years? He must be a saint.

 

[ChristinaM]

The Catholic Ideal is More sex is worse sex, and less sex is best sex. This protects against the abuse of each other, and keeps the dignity of both husband and wife protected.

Sorry, but this is just a silly misconception of the Catholic view of sex. Sounds like an old stereotype to me…“Catholics think married sex is bad and dirty.” Not true! Read up on Theology of the Body and then tell me if you think the “Catholic Ideal” is “less sex is better.”

And the rest of your comment could not have been more hurtful. This poor soul is struggling with a wife who abuses him. I hope you don’t tell abused wives that they deserve to be denied sex for over a decade because they are using their husbands for their “base desires.”

 

[mrpathetic]

Hey you put this topic on a public forum asking for opinion so Im going to give you mine. Please dont take it personal .

Maybe your wife didnt stop having sex with you because she didnt want anymore Kids, but perhaps she felt like you were using her as a sexaul object for your own base lustful filled desires. Perhaps this made her despise the very thought of having sex with you, and made her lose any remaining respect she had for you each time you would have sex. So maybe not having sex with her for all these years is the one thing thats actually helped rather then hindered your marriage, maybe you have grown into a more respectful man in her eyes in this time.

The Catholic Ideal is More sex is worse sex, and less sex is best sex. This protects against the abuse of each other, and keeps the dignity of both husband and wife protected.

To respond to some of your points:

1. My wife does not respect me. Indeed, she has nothing but contempt for me. She treats me more like a child than an adult - let alone a partner. Her treatment of me can be humiliating and degrading, and I simply sit back and take it. She regularly takes me for granted, and really doesn’t care what my emotions or feelings are like. I endured this all these years, to save my marriage, and to keep my wife from throwing me out on the street. I suspect that she will probably do this anyway, after our children have reached adulthood, and I have finished paying for their upkeep.

I am a child of divorce; my parents divorced when I was still as child. I swore to myself that I would not put my children through this. I could relate a number of horror stories, about what my parent’s divorce did to them, and their children. That’s really the only true thing that is keeping me in this situation - that, and my vow to God as part of the marriage sacrament. My children leave the home in a couple years - they are both teenagers. So that will leave me with only one reason.

I post about my problems in a couple other message boards. In another board, another poster describes me as a “Level 5 Imbecile” for taking this, all these years. Maybe at some level, they’re right. It just gets really frustrating, having to endure this, week and after week, year after year.

1. The Theology of the Body doesn’t give specific guidelines as to how often married couples should have sexual relations. It is not that specific. However, it does describe two seperate vocations: marriage, and virginity (or celibacy.) And they are not one and the same. Married couples are supposed to have sexual relations, and those who chose virginity are not. The TOB documents are quite clear on this point.

I was called by God to the marriage vocation, not the celibacy vocation. I was quite clear on this, during my period of discernment and reflection, before I married. So why am I being forced to accept the celibacy vocation? Why? WHY?

 

[mrpathetic]

I don’t think is true at all.

Couples can certainly abstain from relations, and it is considered a holy thing to do, especially if done as part of a fast in the lead up to a feast. However, ‘less sex is best sex’ is really subjective, and not being married myself, I’d wager the subject is highly dependent on the couple involved!

You can’t really make ‘carte blanche’ statements like this.

Correct. 1 Corinthian 7 is the specific source of this theology. Couples are supposed to abstain from sex, during a period of fasting and prayer. But no, my wife has not been engaged in prayer or fasting for the past 14 years. In fact, she does almost none of either.

And at some level, less sex can be more helpful than more sex, within a relationship. I see 777’s point. **But is no sex more helpful than any sex? ** I challenge anyone to explain to me how this is supposed to be true.

 

[ack]

I have no idea where you’re getting these strange ideas, but I would suggest that you refrain from confusing people with them…

(PS: I see that you’re getting married soon. For the sake of your relationship, I suggest that you learn more about the Catholic perspective on sexuality before you marry…)

The Catholic Ideal is More sex is worse sex, and less sex is best sex. This protects against the abuse of each other, and keeps the dignity of both husband and wife protected.

 

[mrpathetic]

I agree with Ack and Christina’s sentiments. I strongly suggest that you and your fiance enroll in a pre-Canaa program in your parish or diocese. I think you may have a lot to learn about the Catholic understanding of marriage. A number of your beliefs seen to conflict directly with Theology of the Body.

I understand a lot about marriage. But as I have already taken my vows, there is a finite number of things I can do about the situation. You, my friend, have options, however.

Don’t repeat my mistakes. Please, save yourself the misery. I will bear it for you.

 

[SoulRebel777]

OP…

Please hear me out. When I say less sex is the Catholic Ideal Im saying this in comparsion and relative to the Way the World see’s things.

What I mean is , that Sex between Husband and wife should only be in one main Condition. That being Love. Love in all its completeness , Fullness , Fruitfulness, openness, and Freeness. Now ask yourself , have you always had sex with the purest of motive’s? Even if you didnt even one time , your wife could still be holding this against you. … I ask you Sir, to humble yourself and say to your Wife… Honey Im sorry if during anytime we were intimate you ever felt used or not honored with the full dignity you deserve. If you do that Sir…she will respect it.

Dont be desperate for sex. You need to show your wife that you dont Need her. If she thinks you need her, she wont respect you. Show her , that you dont need her love because you have God’s Love. And Only when we have God’s love in us can we truly love our wives in the right way.

If your wife disrespects you after your apology you MUST stand up for yourself. You must say something as the Head of the home. She is testing you. you must respond. You must show her you are a Man. A woman doesnt respect men who won’t stand up for themselves. You must protect your children and rescue the children from her . Then you can Rescue her. This is your duty as the High Priest of your home. as the Father of the Home. Your house is a reck because youve been a coward before your bully wife, and youve been desperate for her Love. Bring her into the world of light , truth and Love and dont play her game. Dont enter her Chaos. Be Apart…Stand In Gods calmness, dont fall from Grace and be found wanting.

Your a Man. Love God and the truth before any woman. Its only then that a man can truly Love a Woman. If you put her Love her sex before God, you will always appear as a Monkey before her. But if you Love the truth before all things you will become like a God to her.

This will take time to regain the love and respect your wife has for you. Draw Close to God as Possiable during this time. But be patient and Bold. Stand your Ground sir be it she love you or hate you. Remember the words In yourself you can do nothing. Trust in God.

Im praying for you

God bless ,
Your Brother in Christ

 

[Salonika]

My wife does not respect me. Indeed, she has nothing but contempt for me. She treats me more like a child than an adult - let alone a partner. Her treatment of me can be humiliating and degrading, and I simply sit back and take it. She regularly takes me for granted, and really doesn’t care what my emotions or feelings are like. I endured this all these years, to save my marriage, and to keep my wife from throwing me out on the street …

My brother (like some of the other posters I will not address you by your user name as I don’t think it is appropriate) I am concerned for you as it seems to me that because you have lived in an abusive situation for so long part of you has become inured to it. The pyschological and physical toll must be so great. Give youself a pat on the back for continuing to be able to function.

Hopefully counselling will provide not only insights into your situation but also new ways of viewing it and how to extracate youself from it.

While you may feel you are “pathetic” and weak - think how much you have endured. Underneath you must have a lot of strength, hang on to that feeling, if you were weaker you’d not be going to counselling and you would not be functioning and looking at rebuilding your life .

I am a child of divorce; my parents divorced when I was still as child. I swore to myself that I would not put my children through this.

I could relate a number of horror stories, about what my parent’s divorce did to them, and their children. That’s really the only true thing that is keeping me in this situation that, and my vow to God as part of the marriage sacrament.

Yes, separation or divorce can be traumatic for children but so can be living in a home where parents fight or when one parent constantly demeans the other. Hope your children have also been exposed to postive marriages.

Also you and your wife both made vows - eg to love and to cherish each other - doesn’t seem your wife has done much of that and she’s hardly made it possible for you to carry out your vows.

Probably an understatement to say that you have overkept your vows and your wife has underkept them.

In another board, another poster describes me as a “Level 5 Imbecile” for taking this, all these years. Maybe at some level, they’re right. It just gets really frustrating, having to endure this, week and after week, year after year.

Calling people names doesn’t help and when we’re called names often enough, we begin to believe and act on them. Think such posters, intending to be helpful, could be abusing you in a similar way to your wife.

I was called by God to the marriage vocation, not the celibacy vocation. I was quite clear on this, during my period of discernment and reflection, before I married. So why am I being forced to accept the celibacy vocation? Why? WHY?

Probably because at the moment you see this as the best of a number of bad options.

Also, maybe the celibacy wouldn’t be so bad, if it was for health reasons and you weren’t being abused and put down all the time.

Comment -
While I have never been married I do now what is like to be brought up in a household where parents fought. Also I know what it is like to be bullied - mine was workplace bullying and my comments about taking on other people’s labels come from there.

 

[Shiann]

OP…

Please hear me out. When I say less sex is the Catholic Ideal Im saying this in comparsion and relative to the Way the World see’s things.

What I mean is , that Sex between Husband and wife should only be in one main Condition. That being Love. Love in all its completeness , Fullness , Fruitfulness, openness, and Freeness. Now ask yourself , have you always had sex with the purest of motive’s? Even if you didnt even one time , your wife could still be holding this against you. … I ask you Sir, to humble yourself and say to your Wife… Honey Im sorry if during anytime we were intimate you ever felt used or not honored with the full dignity you deserve. If you do that Sir…she will respect it.

I think the essence of OP issues is that he is humble TOO MUCH. OP’s wife does not respect her husband in any way - that is apparent from all of his posts.

Dont be desperate for sex. You need to show your wife that you dont Need her. If she thinks you need her, she wont respect you. Show her , that you dont need her love because you have God’s Love. And Only when we have God’s love in us can we truly love our wives in the right way.

Hahahahaha… sorry, but after 14 years of little to no sexual relations for no apparent reason, - his request can hardly be called desperation.

And I underlined the part that absolutely struck a wrong note to me. Maybe I misunderstand though and want to give you an opportunity to clarify before I comment.

If your wife disrespects you after your apology you MUST stand up for yourself. You must say something as the Head of the home. She is testing you. you must respond. You must show her you are a Man. A woman doesnt respect men who won’t stand up for themselves. You must protect your children and rescue the children from her . Then you can Rescue her. This is your duty as the High Priest of your home. as the Father of the Home. Your house is a reck because youve been a coward before your bully wife, and youve been desperate for her Love. Bring her into the world of light , truth and Love and dont play her game. Dont enter her Chaos. Be Apart…Stand In Gods calmness, dont fall from Grace and be found wanting.

Your a Man. Love God and the truth before any woman. Its only then that a man can truly Love a Woman. If you put her Love her sex before God, you will always appear as a Monkey before her. But if you Love the truth before all things you will become like a God to her.

This will take time to regain the love and respect your wife has for you. Draw Close to God as Possiable during this time. But be patient and Bold. Stand your Ground sir be it she love you or hate you. Remember the words In yourself you can do nothing. Trust in God.

Im praying for you

God bless ,
Your Brother in Christ

Yes, we are to love God first and foremost. Love of spouse and family follows. Though this situation is a decade and a half in the making. Intense marital therapy, individual therapy and prayer, prayer and more prayer might be able to mend the damage - IF both parties are willing.

 

[capsaicin]

have you always had sex with the purest of motive’s?

Oh please… no married couple has ever achieved this level of perfection. Sometimes you are just hot for each other and get down to it! An authentic Catholic perspective is accepting and welcoming of the children that come from those moments of passion and love, but no couple ever achieves complete purity of motive in their sexual life at all times!

You need to show your wife that you dont Need her. If she thinks you need her, she wont respect you.

OMG… if this is truly your belief about relations between men and women, please do not marry. It will turn into a tragedy if you do. We are SUPPOSED to need each other. We become one flesh, one new being created from two. How could half of an entity not need the other half? Even St. Paul says the members of the Body of Christ, a much more nebulous and less connected community than a marriage, are not to despise one another as unneeded. Each is equal and necessary. The head cannot say to the foot, “I do not need you…”

 

[whatevergirl]

Oh please… no married couple has ever achieved this level of perfection. Sometimes you are just hot for each other and get down to it! An authentic Catholic perspective is accepting and welcoming of the children that come from those moments of passion and love, but no couple ever achieves complete purity of motive in their sexual life at all times!

OMG… if this is truly your belief about relations between men and women, please do not marry. It will turn into a tragedy if you do. We are SUPPOSED to need each other. We become one flesh, one new being created from two. How could half of an entity not need the other half? Even St. Paul says the members of the Body of Christ, a much more nebulous and less connected community than a marriage, are not to despise one another as unneeded. Each is equal and necessary. The head cannot say to the foot, “I do not need you…”

Today…I’m in agreement with you capsaicin. I agree completely. I think that in our culture, needing people is considered weak…but we are to lean on our spouses…we are to become one in flesh, mind and soul.

 

[mrpathetic]

OP…

What I mean is , that Sex between Husband and wife should only be in one main Condition. That being Love. Love in all its completeness , Fullness , Fruitfulness, openness, and Freeness. Now ask yourself , have you always had sex with the purest of motive’s? Even if you didnt even one time , your wife could still be holding this against you. … I ask you Sir, to humble yourself and say to your Wife… Honey Im sorry if during anytime we were intimate you ever felt used or not honored with the full dignity you deserve. If you do that Sir…she will respect it.

If your wife disrespects you after your apology you MUST stand up for yourself. You must say something as the Head of the home. She is testing you. you must respond. You must show her you are a Man. A woman doesnt respect men who won’t stand up for themselves. You must protect your children and rescue the children from her . Then you can Rescue her. This is your duty as the High Priest of your home. as the Father of the Home. Your house is a reck because youve been a coward before your bully wife, and youve been desperate for her Love. Bring her into the world of light , truth and Love and dont play her game. Dont enter her Chaos. Be Apart…Stand In Gods calmness, dont fall from Grace and be found wanting.

1. I have never degraded, humiliated, or imposed on my wife, during sexual relations. Never. And in fact, when we have sexual relations, the focus was always on her needs, not mine. As in most matters, my wife is the one in complete control - not me.
2. My wife does not respect me - not in the slightest. And she does not want to be “rescued”. She just wants to use and exploit me, in the same fashion as in the past 15 years. Her favorite expression is this: “you will provide me with the quality of life I have become accustomed to”. And as she has completely fallen away from the Church, I cannot use any Scriptual or spiritual arguments with her.

SoulRebel, I deeply appreciate your comments, and I am grateful for your alternate perspective. I am just not 100% sure that your understand the circumstances I am coming from. Perhaps we come from different cultures or nationalities or backgrounds. Maybe you don’t have to deal with the types of women such as my wife. Do you know any women who are simultaneously cruel, narcissistic, agnositc, and total unrepentant? That is what I have to come home to, every night.

Over the course of this post, I have come to a deep, profound understanding of my predicament. Christ give us each a cross to bear, and in my case, my cross is my wife. She loves being in love with me, but does not love me, and abuses and exploits me routinely. My wife is patently opposed to change. Our faith does not permit divorce, remarriage, adultery, or masturbation. Hence, unless my wife pre-deceases me, or there is some massive I have likely experienced the last sexual gratification, for the rest of my life. I need to find ways to come with this, and with prayer, support and counseling, I can find a way through. Perhaps this test of faith will strengthen me, and I will emere a better Christian, after 30-40 years of this. I can only hope.

 

[mrpathetic]

To update everyone on my status:

I am seeing a Christian-based counselor in my area. I had my first session last week, and I will have my next one next week. He is starting a therapy program, based upon a work called “Boundaries”, by Cloud and Townsend. They are Christian-based marital counselors who have developed a process for setting boundaries on behavior within relationships, including marriage.

I am encouraged by this process, and I will update this forum on my progress. It will not be easy or fast - but then again, it took nearly 20 years for me to reach this point. Hopefully, it won’t take another 20 years to get back to some semblance of normalcy, or self-respect.

To explain further: The “Boundaries” approach can be effective at stopping abuse behavior, on the part of a significant other. But it really can’t be used for force change on another person.

The technique goes something like this: You set a “boundary” with another person - such as not not allowing them to spend your money, or take up your time, or to verbally abuse you. Then the other person agrees to live with that boundary, or they do not. If they do not agree, then you shut yourself off from them. If they do agree to that boundary, then you can let them back into your life, in an intimate fashion.

Unfortunately, this technique has its limitations. You can’t use it to force or manipulate anyone else into doing anything. In fact, the technique is designed to prevent that. So I cannot use that, to force my wife to become sexual active or even intimate with me.

Hopefully, I can use this approach, to stop some of the degrading behavior of my spouse. But I am under no illusions that it will fix the problems with my sex life. That, unfortunately, would require a sea change on the part of my wife - and I don’t know what it would take, for that to happen.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Over the course of this post, I have come to a deep, profound understanding of my predicament. Christ give us each a cross to bear, and in my case, my cross is my wife. She loves being in love with me, but does not love me, and abuses and exploits me routinely. My wife is patently opposed to change. Our faith does not permit divorce, remarriage, adultery, or masturbation. Hence, unless my wife pre-deceases me, or there is some massive I have likely experienced the last sexual gratification, for the rest of my life. I need to find ways to come with this, and with prayer, support and counseling, I can find a way through. Perhaps this test of faith will strengthen me, and I will emere a better Christian, after 30-40 years of this. I can only hope.

I am so sad for you. But our faith does allow for seperation from an abusive situation. According to what you are saying, what your wife is abusing you.

Also, what were her intentions to you when you married, to be your wife or to be your room mate?

Please, please go speak to a priest and possibly an expert in canon law.

Also, you have spoken about divorce’s effect on your children. Do you have any sons? Is it fair that his primary view of women is his
mother humiliating her husband…do you want for him to have this relationship in the future?
Or how about a daughter, is it fair for her to not have a good example of mother and wife?

I repeat, I am so sorry about your situation. I hope my words are not harsh to you.

You’ll be in my prayers.

 

[mrpathetic]

Also, what were her intentions to you when you married, to be your wife or to be your room mate?

Also, you have spoken about divorce’s effect on your children. Do you have any sons? Is it fair that his primary view of women is his
mother humiliating her husband…do you want for him to have this relationship in the future?
Or how about a daughter, is it fair for her to not have a good example of mother and wife?

At this point, her original intentions are just a blur to me. Maybe she loved some part of me, back then, all those years ago. But she certainly changed over the years, and become increasingly hostile, selfish, and self-absorbed, seemingly with each passing year.

What effects is this having on my children? Hard to say. My son appears to have a resonably stable relationship with a girlfriend he has. So the situation does not appear to have effected him, to any great extent. He does well in school, and appears to be a well-adjusted young man.

My daughter is a very shy and withdrawn person; she has not had any serious boyfriends up to this point. She may be turned off to men, as a result of what she has seen, between her parents. She is only 17, and quite frankly, that is still very young to be dating, in my opinion. (That is when I first started dating.) She has a very strong Christian faith, so we shall see how she turns out.

 

[rusty20]

I only read the first few posts…

I hate to say this, but, although you have been faithful throughout all of this, has she??? You have resisted sexual temptation through two decades, has she done the same? I would be slightly worried about this if I were you. She’s not getting a healthy sexual relationship with her husband, is she trying to find it somewhere else?

Just a thought, and I’m not trying to be accusatory…

 

[mrpathetic]

I have long suspected my wife is truly a lesbian, or bisexual. This is not just suspicion or paranoia on my part. I found a piece of evidence, about 10 years ago, that was pretty incontrovertible. She was keeping a book, on how to keep a long-term lesbian relationship secret. I found it hidden among her effects. It was in a place that I would never ever look - I was searching for some of my children’s school records, when I found it. **Why would someone have such a book, if they did not need it? **

My wife works in a business where she routinely is only around women. And she has several long-term friends, all women, with whom she spends a lot of time. She sometimes goes on vacations with these women, without me. I am typically not invited, and in fact, she sometimes doesn’t even tell me about them in advance. And whenever she speaks with these other women on the phone, a glow comes across her face - as if she is speaking to a lover.

I would bet any amount of money that my wife has been having a lesbian affair behind my back. Again, this is just one more thing I have to put up with - one more cross that I have to bear. But this explains her lack of affection, sexual interest, etc.

Quite honestly, I would go insane thinking about these things. Like one of a thousand indignities, I just let this slide. I have never confronted her about this, just like I have never raised the issues of her reckless spending, falling out with the Church, etc. Whenever I try to have a substantive conversation with my wife, she threatens to divorce me.

I have forgiven my wife for whatever she has done in the past, or continues to do. That is the way Christ has taught us. I am obviously not happy about the situation, but because of my marriage vows, I have very little choice. I made my choice on the marriage altar, some twenty years ago, so I have to live with it.

 

[JPUSC]

I have long suspected my wife is truly a lesbian, or bisexual. This is not just suspicion or paranoia on my part. I found a piece of evidence, about 10 years ago, that was pretty incontrovertible. She was keeping a book, on how to keep a long-term lesbian relationship secret. I found it hidden among her effects. It was in a place that I would never ever look - I was searching for some of my children’s school records, when I found it. **Why would someone have such a book, if they did not need it? **

My wife works in a business where she routinely is only around women. And she has several long-term friends, all women, with whom she spends a lot of time. She sometimes goes on vacations with these women, without me. I am typically not invited, and in fact, she sometimes doesn’t even tell me about them in advance. And whenever she speaks with these other women on the phone, a glow comes across her face - as if she is speaking to a lover.

I would bet any amount of money that my wife has been having a lesbian affair behind my back. Again, this is just one more thing I have to put up with - one more cross that I have to bear. But this explains her lack of affection, sexual interest, etc.

Quite honestly, I would go insane thinking about these things. Like one of a thousand indignities, I just let this slide. I have never confronted her about this, just like I have never raised the issues of her reckless spending, falling out with the Church, etc. Whenever I try to have a substantive conversation with my wife, she threatens to divorce me.

I have forgiven my wife for whatever she has done in the past, or continues to do. That is the way Christ has taught us. I am obviously not happy about the situation, but because of my marriage vows, I have very little choice. I made my choice on the marriage altar, some twenty years ago, so I have to live with it.

If you are that unhappy and it is a loveless marriage, you can consider an annulment. But if there is still hope in the marriage, go seek counseling, it may be better for your children.

 

[rusty20]

If you are that unhappy and it is a loveless marriage, you can consider an annulment. But if there is still hope in the marriage, go seek counseling, it may be better for your children.

I agree. I’m not sure the exact regulations on annulment. If your wife was clearly not intending the marriage to be permanent from the very beginning, does that nullify it?

Perhaps ask these questions in another forum (apologetics, maybe?)