Sexual Molestation & the Liturgy

[Crusader]

I was thinking about the effort my Diocese puts into removing liturgical abuse (zero) versus what they could do (a great deal.)

Looking at my diocese’s website dioceseofmonterey.com/ I see a great emphasis on sexual abuse which is certainly not a bad thing:

“Policy Against Sexual Misconduct”
dioceseofmonterey.com/Policy%20against%20Sexual%20Misconduct%209-2003.pdf

“Safe Environment Program”
dioceseofmonterey.com/safety.pdf

But just imagine if liturgical abuse received this level of concern! Without minimizing the horiffic effects of sexual molestation and rape, it could be argued that liturgical abuse is ever bit as pernitious (perhaps more so) to the Church.

Why isn’t there a policy on liturgical abuse at my diocese? Because there is no real concern? Because no lawyer has suggested it?

 

[albert_cipriani]

Crusader:

Why isn’t there a policy on liturgical abuse at my diocese? Because there is no real concern? Because no lawyer has suggested it?

Because we who care about liturgical abuse are on the narrow road Jesus spoke of. We are vastly outnumbered by the impious who see abuse as innovation and are achieving more and more of it.

Since VCII, the Church has given up the model of Christ’s Kingdom and taken on the PC model of a democracy. This is called collegiality. Call it what you will, the results are the same, majority rule. Since the majority of the bishops and the people are impious, you can expect more of the same from the democratic structure you are in.

Solution: leave the corrupt deomocratic structure you are in (which is not to be confused with leaving the Catholic Church) to receive the Tradtional sacraments (including the Tridentine Mass) from any valid priest you can obtain them from. Traditio.com publishes yearly a book that lists where you can find them anywhere in America. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Keep in mind, though, that there’s nothing at all traditional about schism from the Papacy. Unless you consider the Orthodox Church, Protestantism, and Jansenism to be “traditional.”

As has been demonstrated in the thread “Only an Ecumenical Council,” Cipriani’s pseudo-traditionalism is really just a nicely-packaged Modernism.

 

[Jermosh]

I am sorry, but being a recent Convert. I am at a loss to what the possible liturgal abuses could be on the same level of child rape and abuse.

I do not mean to be sarcastic or frank. But its just makes no sense. I have really only ever seen “so-called” abuses if they are even that. Like woman getting their feet washed, or children around the alter. Is this what you are talking about?

Peace
Jermosh

 

[Crusader]

Jermosh:

I am sorry, but being a recent Convert. I am at a loss to what the possible liturgal abuses could be on the same level of child rape and abuse.

I do not mean to be sarcastic or frank. But its just makes no sense. I have really only ever seen “so-called” abuses if they are even that. Like woman getting their feet washed, or children around the alter. Is this what you are talking about?

Peace
Jermosh

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very center of our Catholic Christian faith here on earth. In effect the Mass is heaven on earth. To abuse this most precious of gifts is staggering to even consider if one truly understands the Mass.

Many (most?) Catholics in the USA don’t seem to have a clue about the Mass. They characterize the Mass as just another religious “service” and that’s terribly sad.

While child abuse/rape is indeed horrific, it dosen’t compare to abusing the Mass – I’m not sure if anything does, at least here on earth.

 

[Crusader]

albert cipriani:

Because we who care about liturgical abuse are on the narrow road Jesus spoke of. We are vastly outnumbered by the impious who see abuse as innovation and are achieving more and more of it.

Since VCII, the Church has given up the model of Christ’s Kingdom and taken on the PC model of a democracy. This is called collegiality. Call it what you will, the results are the same, majority rule. Since the majority of the bishops and the people are impious, you can expect more of the same from the democratic structure you are in.

Solution: leave the corrupt deomocratic structure you are in (which is not to be confused with leaving the Catholic Church)** to receive the Tradtional sacraments (including the Tridentine Mass) from any valid priest you can obtain them from.** Traditio.com publishes yearly a book that lists where you can find them anywhere in America. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
[groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/](Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)

The Tridentine Mass is no silver bullet. And to those that suggest it is are doing nothing buy aiding and abetting the abusers…

I have no idea what the “Traditional sacraments” are. I’ll stick with the seven offered by God through His Catholic Church…

 

[Jermosh]

Crusader:

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very center of our Catholic Christian faith here on earth. In effect the Mass is heaven on earth. To abuse this most precious of gifts is staggering to even consider if one truly understands the Mass.

Many (most?) Catholics in the USA don’t seem to have a clue about the Mass. They characterize the Mass as just another religious “service” and that’s terribly sad.

While child abuse/rape is indeed horrific, it dosen’t compare to abusing the Mass – I’m not sure if anything does, at least here on earth.

Ok you are going to have to ellaborate here. What specifically is an abuse that is on the same level of child abuse/rape?

Peace
Jermosh

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Many (most?) Catholics in the USA don’t seem to have a clue about the Mass.

The proverbial pot calling the kettle black . . .

 

[Crusader]

Jermosh:

Ok you are going to have to ellaborate here. What specifically is an abuse that is on the same level of child abuse/rape?

Peace
Jermosh

Let me ask you this first. What do you think would happen if the Mass ceased to be celebrated here on earth?

 

[Jermosh]

Crusader:

Let me ask you this first. What do you think would happen if the Mass ceased to be celebrated here on earth?

Well that would mean the 2nd coming has come and gone. We would have no need for Mass.
Peace
Jermosh

 

[puzzleannie]

well this forum has some interesting thread titles, but I think yours wins the prize.
The bishops are ordered since their Dallas meeting to publicise the efforts they are taking to combat the sex abuse crisis and to prevent these things from happening. Your diocese website is doing a good job to carry out the directives the bishops agreed on. Why would you complain about their obedience?

Liturgical abuse is another topic, and you are right to point out the duty of the bishops to enforce GIRM and the church norms, but this can mean anything from liturgical dancers (men in tights behaving badly) to holding hands during the Our Father. The bishop is the authority in the diocese until he formally breaks with Rome. Until then, obey his directives and chill.

 

[Crusader]

puzzleannie:

well this forum has some interesting thread titles, but I think yours wins the prize.
The bishops are ordered since their Dallas meeting to publicise the efforts they are taking to combat the sex abuse crisis and to prevent these things from happening. Your diocese website is doing a good job to carry out the directives the bishops agreed on. Why would you complain about their obedience?

Liturgical abuse is another topic, and you are right to point out the duty of the bishops to enforce GIRM and the church norms, but this can mean anything from liturgical dancers (men in tights behaving badly) to holding hands during the Our Father. The bishop is the authority in the diocese until he formally breaks with Rome. Until then, obey his directives and chill.

I was just using sex abuse as an example of what the bishops can do if they actually try.

I would love to see this level of concern and effort applied to the Mass…

 

[puzzleannie]

I agree, imagine if they were united on advising Catholics of their moral responsibilities in public life?

 

[Crusader]

puzzleannie:

I agree, imagine if they were united on advising Catholics of their moral responsibilities in public life?

Given the condition of the Church in the USA in say 1965, I would say on average (there are certainly exceptions), the US bishops have done an abysmal job of leading the Church in the USA for the past 40 years.

 

[albert_cipriani]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Keep in mind, though, that there’s nothing at all traditional about schism from the Papacy. Unless you consider the Orthodox Church, Protestantism, and Jansenism to be “traditional.”

Keep in mind, there’s nothing at all honest about calumny in reference to your fellow Catholics.

The Orthodox, Protestants, and Jansenist all reject papal authority while Traditionalists do not. The worst that can be said of us is that we disobey PASTORAL directives that seem impious or sinful to obey. This disobedience has a long tradition in Catholicism.

As has been demonstrated in the thread “Only an Ecumenical Council,” Cipriani’s pseudo-traditionalism is really just a nicely-packaged Modernism

Try to stop making gratuitous assertions. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[Crusader]

albert cipriani:

Keep in mind, there’s nothing at all honest about calumny in reference to your fellow Catholics.

The Orthodox, Protestants, and Jansenist all reject papal authority while Traditionalists do not. The worst that can be said of us is that we disobey PASTORAL directives that seem impious or sinful to obey. This disobedience has a long tradition in Catholicism.

Try to stop making gratuitous assertions. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

I find it extremely devisive and arrogant for people to use the term “Traditionalist” as you do. It’s almost if you are suggesting that there is a church or rite within the Catholic Church that is called the “Traditional Catholic Church.” There is not, although I’m guessing there is a Protestant sect somewhere with that moniker.

It’s also disconcerting for you to suggest you know which “pastoral directives” are impious and/or sinful. That is the height of arrogance and pride – one placing themselves ahead of the Church and ahead of Jesus Christ.

It also clearly shows just how close self-proclaimed “Traditionalists” are to self-proclaimed “Progressives.”
BOTH place their own desires born from pride ahead of what the Church directs. Neither are orthodox.

And no, it’s not OK simply because your viewpoint is “traditonal” or “conservative.” Follow the Catholic Church and the Holy Father!

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

This disobedience has a long tradition in Catholicism.

Um . . . let’s see . . . Saint Hippolytus, while he was anti-Pope?

No, wait . . . Saint Cyprian, when he insisted that the traditional practice of the Church was to rebaptize heretics (that’s right, he actually appealed to Tradition to disobey the Pope)?

Oh, how about the anti-pope Novation, who said the true Pope’s laxity was novel and contrary to Tradition?

Or the Arians, who cited many Fathers who’s subordinationist tendencies seemed to vindicate their own false teachings?

Um . . . yeah.



Perhaps you’d like to start a new thread actually documenting a single instance of lawful disobedience, when it wasn’t a question of manifest sin, but merely personal feeling?

(Modernism, BTW, is based on feelings.)

 

[albert_cipriani]

Crusader:

I find it extremely devisive and arrogant for people to use the term “Traditionalist” as you do. It’s almost if you are suggesting that there is a church or rite within the Catholic Church that is called the “Traditional Catholic Church.” There is not,

Sure there is, it’s called the SSPX or the even bigger non-organization of all the independent priests willing to supply the Traditional unaltered sacraments and liturgy to those of us who feel – rightly or wrongly – a need for them.

It’s also disconcerting for you to suggest you know which “pastoral directives” are impious and/or sinful. That is the height of arrogance and pride…

Really! Lets test this out. How one comports oneself during Mass is in the realm of pastoral directive. Traditionally we have knelt. Lately we’ve been asked to stand. Is it the height of your “arrogance and pride” to detect that the former traditional practice was more pious than the latter? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[Crusader]

albert cipriani:

Sure there is, it’s called the SSPX or the even bigger non-organization of all the independent priests willing to supply the Traditional unaltered sacraments and liturgy to those of us who feel – rightly or wrongly – a need for them.

Really! Lets test this out. How one comports oneself during Mass is in the realm of pastoral directive. Traditionally we have knelt. Lately we’ve been asked to stand. Is it the height of your “arrogance and pride” to detect that the former traditional practice was more pious than the latter? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

The SSPX are not Catholic. Are you thinking about the FSSP?

No “independent priest” may offer a (public) Mass without the approval of the local arch(bishop.)

Simply put, it’s up to the Church, not you. Your notions and desires mean nothing when they contravene what the Church actually directs.

 

[albert_cipriani]

Crusader:

The SSPX are not Catholic.

What is the canonical basis for this latest in your series of unsupported assertions? Do you think that because the bishop of the SSPX was excommunicated, he and his followers ceased being Catholics? If excommunication from the Church by the Church is the canonical basis whereby one-time Catholics cease to be Catholics, is the Catholic Saint Joan of Arc, who was excommunicated prior to being burned at the stake by evil French bishops, not Catholic?

No “independent priest” may offer a (public) Mass without the approval of the local arch(bishop.)

When all but one of the bishops of England gave up their Catholic Faith to join the Anglican religion, should the remaining faithful Catholic priests in that country have ceased saying Mass? The apostasy of their superiors turned them into independant priests who did not have the approval to say the Catholic Mass. For over a century these outlawed independent priests were caught celebrating the Catholic Mass, tortured, and put to death. But according to you these independent priests were being disobedient and not being martyrs?

Simply put, it’s up to the Church, not you. Your notions and desires mean nothing when they contravene what the Church actually directs.

How is your prescription of how to proceed any different than that proffered by fanatical fundamentalist cults? Obey, obey, obey, never mind your mind, disregard your Catholic Traditions, ignore your sense of piety. “Do as you are told” is a necessary injunction in rearing children; but do you think it should be the alpha and omega, the motto and the mantra of mature Catholics? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic