'Sexy' Vatican video hits sour note in attempt to include women

[Mystical_Seeker]

The fact that there isn’t a single woman on the Pontifical Council for Culture is the issue. Are there no female academics or writers or commentators or actors to appoint to it? Do women have no insight into the interaction between the Catholic Church and popular culture? Isn’t appointing women to the Pontifical Council of Culture an easy win for the Vatican? We aren’t talking about the liturgy, priestly formation, doctrinal manners, or canon law manners. (Although I am not sure why women cannot be consulted on those matters.) We are talking about essentially the Vatican ministry of culture.

OK, but given that fact that this is the case, why waste a chance to opine given what little channels there are for communications? Maybe they don’t know how to open the door and this is their attempt at trying. Who knows, but if some women are somehow too good to accept the offer to submit a video, then I guess their opinions won’t be heard by anybody at all.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

OK, but given that fact that this is the case, why waste a chance to opine given what little channels there are for communications? Maybe they don’t know how to open the door and this is their attempt at trying. Who knows, but if some women are somehow too good to accept the offer to submit a video, then I guess their opinions won’t be heard by anybody at all.

The option for video submissions was open for a week around Christmas time. I don’t know about you but I had other things to do during Christmas. And the whole initiative was badly conceived and badly run. I cannot wait for the remarks of Pope Francis, who doesn’t understand women at all, to top the whole thing off.

 

[weller2]

The option for video submissions was open for a week around Christmas time.

Well, it could be worse:

• You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anyone or anything.
• But the plans were on display…
• On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.
• That’s the display department.
• With a torch.
• Ah, well the lights had probably gone.
• So had the stairs.
• But look you found the notice didn’t you?’
• Yes - said Arthur - yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of The Leopard”.

– Douglas Adams.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The option for video submissions was open for a week around Christmas time. I don’t know about you but I had other things to do during Christmas. And the whole initiative was badly conceived and badly run. I cannot wait for the remarks of Pope Francis, who doesn’t understand women at all, to top the whole thing off.

You didn’t answer my question. Why would you not only waste what chance you ARE given (living in the real world rather than your fantasy one) and go from there, but then complain about it because it “wasn’t enough”?

What do you think is going to happen? If you act angry and bitter enough, that will dispatch the Holy Spirit to fix the church to your liking?

You are doing nothing to help if you refuse to take what channels are available, and all you have is bad-mouthing for those in charge and no apparent plan to participate because they don’t give you the precise venue you wanted, requested by the right people, using the right means of communications, the right spokespeople, and the right models to do any public announcement, and of course reading a script that you personally approve.

Because you don’t feel “included” enough, you’re going to stay away when they do call and complain, stay as far as them as possible and moan about not being included? There an emoticon that sums up that behavior, afa I’m concerned: :whacky:

Basically you’re making excuses for why you’d rather complain and gripe about the Church than to do anything that may actually help her become less of what you are griping about.

Well, it could be worse:

• You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anyone or anything.
• But the plans were on display…
• On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.
• That’s the display department.
• With a torch.
• Ah, well the lights had probably gone.
• So had the stairs.
• But look you found the notice didn’t you?’
• Yes - said Arthur - yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of The Leopard”.

– Douglas Adams.

Good point. Christmas decorations are more important than women’s issues in the Vatican, in terms of actually doing something about it. When it comes to the Vatican all we do is fling vitriol about the Way Things Are.

If you complain instead of responding, then you are digging your own grave because what you’re doing is the best way to waste your lifetime by doing nothing to help and living in anger meanwhile, and being in that grave is apparently preferable to the much more scary and courageous concept of working with the others who are trying to help you out by making it better for everyone – including you.

Nobody remembers the people who only complained but refused to do anything about it. To get more use out of the mortal body, I recommend either becoming part of the change, or get out of the way of those of us who are trying to be.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

You didn’t answer my question. Why would you not only waste what chance you ARE given (living in the real world rather than your fantasy one) and go from there, but then complain about it because it “wasn’t enough”?

What do you think is going to happen? If you act angry and bitter enough, that will dispatch the Holy Spirit to fix the church to your liking?

You are doing nothing to help if you refuse to take what channels are available, and all you have is bad-mouthing for those in charge and no apparent plan to participate because they don’t give you the precise venue you wanted, requested by the right people, using the right means of communications, the right spokespeople, and the right models to do any public announcement, and of course reading a script that you personally approve.

Because you don’t feel “included” enough, you’re going to stay away when they do call and complain, stay as far as them as possible and moan about not being included? There an emoticon that sums up that behavior, afa I’m concerned:

Yeah… I think that the Holy Father, the bishops, the priests, etc. only care about women as mommies, housewives, or in traditional feminine roles (i.e. washing altar linens, caring for children, etc.). I don’t think that the Vatican and clergy want to hear what I have to say as a feminist or want to hear criticism of their approach to women. (Issue #1 is Pope and his what of speaking about women and his weird approach to complementarity. I call it the magic fluffy mommy dust of compassion and tenderness.)

Good point. Christmas decorations are more important than women’s issues in the Vatican, in terms of actually doing something about it. When it comes to the Vatican all we do is fling vitriol about the Way Things Are.

If you complain instead of responding, then you are digging your own grave because what you’re doing is the best way to waste your lifetime by doing nothing to help and living in anger meanwhile, and being in that grave is apparently preferable to the much more scary and courageous concept of working with the others who are trying to help you out by making it better for everyone – including you.

Nobody remembers the people who only complained but refused to do anything about it. To get more use out of the mortal body, I recommend either becoming part of the change, or get out of the way of those of us who are trying to be.

The women invited to these conferences don’t criticize the Vatican’s approach to women. It is the politburo; they affirm it. They agree with Pope Francis’ idea of fluffy magic women dust.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yeah… I think that the Holy Father, the bishops, the priests, etc. only care about women as mommies, housewives, or in traditional feminine roles (i.e. washing altar linens, caring for children, etc.). I don’t think that the Vatican and clergy want to hear what I have to say as a feminist or want to hear criticism of their approach to women. (Issue #1 is Pope and his what of speaking about women and his weird approach to complementarity. I call it the magic fluffy mommy dust of compassion and tenderness.)

The women invited to these conferences don’t criticize the Vatican’s approach to women. It is the politburo; they affirm it. They agree with Pope Francis’ idea of fluffy magic women dust.

You still didn’t answer the question. Why didn’t you make a video about exactly that and present it?

Was it because “other” feminists prevented you from knowing you even had the opportunity?

Or was it because you really do prefer to complain about things not being the way you want them, without acting on those avenues you have to at least express your opinion?

Personally if I think something is worth complaining about, it is worth complaining about to someone who has the power or at least a chance of moving it in the right direction.

Businesses know that for every customer who complains to them, there are at least 10 and many more, with the same complaint who have told all their friends and neighbors and social networks – everyone else BUT them. Seems like everybody is up and arms about politics, but for every letter an actual politician in office receives, there are about 1000 more people who feel that way because it seems only about 1/10 of a percent of people who like to voice opinions, actually voice them toward a target that is either the problem, or at least the power to do something about it.

Just think. Your single letter, could speak for 1000 women who were too timid or too proud or too angry or too busy or too whatever, to write one.

You could have written and mailed three of them, in the time you have taken to explain to me why women should not participate in at least expressing their opinions through the channels that ARE given. In the “real” world.

For some reason we have become a society of “closet malcontents.” When in the spotlight, they smile and act nice, curtsy and bow, etc. But as soon as the light goes off, the “real truth” comes out. We want somebody else to serve it up on a “secret” ballot so we can support the complaints without any “really important people” realizing we don’t agree on them about absolutely everything. It’s just another form of fear and submission … we’re taught in school that when speaking to officials, say what they want to hear. Keep the honesty for the playground.

 

[Brendan]

A much more interesting question is: if the estimeed committee of bishops is really interested in (name removed by moderator)ut from women, why not simply organize an open Q&A session, so any woman can come in and speak her mind? Is the committee afraid of some potentially difficult questions? .

FYI, the committee that produced this video was entirely female.

 

[weller2]

My job involves organizing and attending various meetings and conferences. If I hear that someone does submission for one week over the Christmas period, then I have trouble deciding if this is malice or incompetence.

Here is how I would do this:

1. Wake up 3 months before the conference (Normally you do this at least 6 months in advance).
2. Open Google, enter “conference management system”, find one you like and can afford. That takes 1 day.
3. Make website, install and configure the software to one stage abstract-only submission (half-page length limit), no review process, set the deadline 2 weeks before the conference. To make sorting easier, create topic 5-10 groups such as “divorce”, “homosexuality”, “women priests” etc. That takes another day.
4. Start calling or e-mailing Catholic media or dioceses and ask to disseminate info about the conference and the website address. Time needed – anywhere between one week and a month.
5. Watch the contributions coming in. If the interest is low, repeat step 3 as needed.
6. Close submissions 2 weeks before the conference. Go through each topic folder and select 2 representative submissions. (If you are really lazy, just choose them at random – there is probably going to be enough repetition that it will give you a representative sample).
7. 10 topic groups times 2 submissions per group gives you 20 submission 1/2 page each, or 10 pages of text. Copy paste them together, and add cover page. Voila, the final report. If you’re an overachiever like me, edit for grammar and spelling.
8. Deliver the report to the committee.
9. Cash money for the job and medal from the Pope, retire comfortably in the Caribbean.

(OK, the last point was a joke).

 

[weller2]

FYI, the committee that produced this video was entirely female.

Video is not a problem, the submission procedure is.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The women invited to these conferences don’t criticize the Vatican’s approach to women. It is the politburo; they affirm it. They agree with Pope Francis’ idea of fluffy magic women dust.

YOU were invited to make a video that would have been viewed by all those men you wish you could “tell a thing or two” to.

YOU did not, either because OTHERS kept you from knowing the opportunity was available, or you otherwise chose not to.

It seems more important to you, to complain about the world that isn’t, rather than do what you can to improve the one that is.

So far all you’ve done is given me multiple excuses why you intend to continue to play the role of victim to all the evil men that run the church, and not take any action that may have some influence in the positive direction. That means you are contributing to the noise, but not to a solution.

Oh, and for the record, I never got an answer to my emails, nor did the Vatican ever ask my opinion on ANYTHING. I guess as a male, they must not want to hear from me. They are so anti-man that they only allowed women to make the videos for submission. I know. The editors were probably instructed to only include in the montage, those women they found most physically attractive – so those cardinals who aren’t gay would have a little entertainment.

 

[weller2]

You still didn’t answer the question. Why didn’t you make a video about exactly that and present it?

1. FYI, I am not a woman.
2. I have learned about the initiative from this thread.

 

[weller2]

YOU were invited to make a video.

YOU did not, either because OTHERS did not tell you the opportunity was available

If I am organizing a conference, then it is my job to disseminate the necessary info to potential attendees at least several months in advance. Consequently, it is me, as the organizer, who is finally responsible for the resulting number and quality of contributions.

Consequently, you don’t rely on submissions over the holiday period, unless your goal is to say b-b-but there was no interest!.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If I am organizing a conference, then it is my job to disseminate the necessary info to potential attendees at least several months in advance. Consequently, it is me, as the organizer, who is finally responsible for the resulting number and quality of contributions.

OK.

1. FYI, I am not a woman.
2. I have learned about the initiative from this thread.

OK so you aren’t a woman.

Then that adds to my challenge that you take whatever opportunities there are available, and make your opinions known. Since they don’t take women seriously, and you’re a man, that means twice as much that you should tell them your concerns about women’s issues because they are more likely to hear what you say, than a woman.

That is, unless you are not a man either; by now I should know better than to assume.

Video is not a problem, the submission procedure is.

So you didn’t dislike the video itself? Or find something wrong about the model or the way it was produced?

I’m glad you clarified that; I didn’t get that from what you had written earlier.

 

[weller2]

Then that adds to my challenge that you take whatever opportunities there are available, and make your opinions known. Since they don’t take women seriously, and you’re a man, that means twice as much that you should tell them your concerns about women’s issues because they are more likely to hear what you say, than a woman.

No, they don’t take anyone seriously except for themselves

As someone who has extensive contacts with various bureaucracies, I can immediately tell a difference between a request for comments organized to actually study the public opinion on the subject, and a request for comments organized to satisfy the legal requirements of doing one. This looks like the latter.

So you didn’t dislike the video itself? Or find something wrong about the model or the way it was produced?

Not really, the video is quite cool (if a bit amateurish / cheesy).

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

No, they don’t take anyone seriously except for themselves

As someone who has extensive contacts with various bureaucracies, I can immediately tell a difference between a request for comments organized to actually study the public opinion on the subject, and a request for comments organized to satisfy the legal requirements of doing one. This looks like the latter.

Nice. OK now I see a whole different persona in you; guess I got some of the carp wiped out of my eyes.

Well I’ll tell you what; I’m not taking any more baloney from the Church and the bureaucrats running it. They drove me literally “insane” once, so now I’m vaccinated against it. My pastor, completely opposite my last pastor, has just as much anarchist ideas as I do. And now that my oldest son is in the seminary, I’ll be damned if I’m going to fail to take any chances I can to make the difference. I told him, "you still have a few more years until you’re ordained, to give me a chance to influence you not to become ‘one of them’. I’m pretty sure he didn’t exactly know what I meant, but I did.

(for example: Because I’ve been dealt a few losing hands by some of these jokers and to add insult to injury, the angry and bitter priest that actually freaked me out so much I got sent straight to a mental ward against my will got promoted to monsignor two months after that. Why? Because he was a good writer; I admit he did publish some good reflections on the gospel; too bad he didn’t observe any himself.)

Even at the parish level, the politics themselves were hurting me until my shrink told me I had to quit all parish leadership organizations for my own good for a while – under the pastor who btw called me a “loose cannon” and banned me from parish property, by accurately conveying to him something that was said in a parish council meeting when he wasn’t there. It’s easy to pick on the guy with the “psychosis” label; it wasn’t until the pastor I have now who embraced me and saw me through healing.

I talk to him privately almost every week, and when I’m wrong he corrects me, and when I’m right he eggs me on and tops me with ideas stronger than my own. Once I challenged him with “my latest heresy” that there is nothing in the Creed that one actually “must” believe, in order to follow Jesus’s teachings on how to get “into the kingdom.” And btw hopefully by now it’s “old news” that “the kingdom” is for how to think and act and live here and now, not about some hopeful outcome in a final judgment after death. Of course the Desert Fathers did not have the benefit of the Creed, so I was hoping he wouldn’t get too angry because he did get angry when I pointed out to him that Jesus never actually asked us to worship Him.

Once I told him I have an advantage over him because I don’t have to color “inside the lines” like he does. He said, “who said I have to?” I told him, you know you have to obey the bishop, even when you’re sure he’s wrong. Ah, yes… I did get him on that one, as I knew he had felt very hurt in the past by that decision. He said, “oh well you got me there.”

And like I mentioned, with a son planning to “pledge obedience to a bishop,” I have a vested interest in “fixing” whatever I can while I’m still alive, by whatever means. :nunchuk:

Not really, the video is quite cool (if a bit amateurish / cheesy).

That was my opinion. A bit cheesy, but personally I kind of got a kick out of seeing and hearing an “attractive woman” inviting people on behalf of the “Pontifical Council” and with Actual Authority from THE Holy Roman Church, behind her invitation. Like “no, this is neither a dream nor a spoof – this is a bona fide invitation from the Church.” And she’s just “throwing around” these Church terms that are usually only used as memes or sarcasm, as if she actually has the authority to do so – and she DOES. And the blessing, and possibly funding by THE Church. Successor to Peter and all…

– I’m like Holy Smokes this it THE “Pontifical council” not just some generic use of the word “pontificating.”

Actually, I’m in training to be the District 12 “tribute” the to Catholic Hunger Games…

 

[weller2]

(for example: Because I’ve been dealt a few losing hands by some of these jokers and to add insult to injury, the angry and bitter priest that actually freaked me out so much I got sent straight to a mental ward against my will got promoted to monsignor two months after that.

Wow. Must have been one tough ride.

In my case it was only a two-year excursion into hardcore atheism

BTW, I love Desert Fathers – these guys were really badass

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Wow. Must have been one tough ride.

It seemed like at the time and I felt quite the victim and outcast, but afterwards it showed its beauty and eventually the “kingdom” just like the Stanzas of the Soul describe. It was THAT good! :heaven:

In my case it was only a two-year excursion into hardcore atheism

My pastor was an atheist before he converted and became a priest. I think that gives us an advantage because we understand the mindsets involved.

BTW, I love Desert Fathers – these guys were really badass

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think that the Vatican and clergy want to hear what I have to say as a feminist or want to hear criticism of their approach to women. (Issue #1 is Pope and his what of speaking about women and his weird approach to complementarity. I call it the magic fluffy mommy dust of compassion and tenderness.).

I do not think it is true that the Church does not want to hear from women, and this video is evidence that they do. However, there are certain boundaries that exist based on moral truth that limit all productive change. Even within those boundaries, discussion is more productive without the use of insults and belittling.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I do not think it is true that the Church does not want to hear from women, and this video is evidence that they do. However, there are certain boundaries that exist based on moral truth that limit all productive change. Even within those boundaries, discussion is more productive without the use of insults and belittling.

It is my understanding that all presentations and videos critical of the Church were weeded out. I tried to use the Twitter feed hashtag to ask what people thought about Cardinal Burke’s interview and whether they agreed with Burke that the Church was too feminine and that radical feminists (aka working women) ruined marriage. This never showed up, so I think that that might be censored as well.

And you know what I consider belittling and demeaning when the Bishop of Rome gives out these little gems.

We cannot forget the irreplaceable role of women in the family,” the Pope said. “The qualities of gentleness, of particular sensitivity and tenderness, which is abundant in the female soul, represent not only a genuine force for the life of families, for the irradiation of a climate of peace and harmony, but also a reality without which the human vocation would be unfeasible.

I recommend you read the entire speech which were stuffed full of gender cliques. The number of “strawberries” in there is amazing.

I’ve thought for a while that Pope Francis has a retrograde attitude toward women. It is disheartening for me to hear that in the 21st century that the Catholic Church still doesn’t support professional women and subtly pressures women to remain at home and have large families. Of course, some lip service is provided to working women but this is just lip service. I have yet to see any pope make significant gestures toward including women despite discussing the importance of women since at least Paul VI.

 

[Darryl1958]

Yeah… I think that the Holy Father, the bishops, the priests, etc. only care about women as mommies, housewives, or in traditional feminine roles (i.e. washing altar linens, caring for children, etc.). I don’t think that the Vatican and clergy want to hear what I have to say as a feminist or want to hear criticism of their approach to women. (Issue #1 is Pope and his what of speaking about women and his weird approach to complementarity. I call it the magic fluffy mommy dust of compassion and tenderness.)

The women invited to these conferences don’t criticize the Vatican’s approach to women. It is the politburo; they affirm it. They agree with Pope Francis’ idea of fluffy magic women dust.

Probably most people who are not priests of clergy are not too interested in listening to the anyone who describes their views as fluffy magic women dust either.

In a world of information overload, that is the kind of thing that gets tuned out in short order as not worthwhile engaging with.