SFO Terminology and Form I

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iloveangels said:
And what would that be, Kevin?

BTW, don’t PM me again about this matter. The formation of the OP and your troubles with the SFO are not mine to arbitrate. Both of you have fraternity councils involved in whatever you’re talking about, and they are the ones to speak to on these matters.
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I have no trouble with my Council, nor to the best of my memory have I ever posted any such thing. I can not recall ever asking you to provide insight on any personal matter or lack there of.

Please do not engage in falsehoods.

I had hoped to privately (inboxed you) clear this matter up with you, but I see it can not be so. Frankly, I give up and I am so horrible sorry for anything I may or might have ever said or done to offend you.
 
I’m sorry also for any misunderstandings that may have occurred. I don’t even know you and have no idea what you were trying to say. I don’t understand what all that business about fraternity was, either.

And I don’t really have anything else to say about this other than that the OP ought to clear all this up with his fraternity council or else call it a finished matter with that particular fraternity. All this arguing is pointless.

As for the private messaging, I generally prefer to keep all the conversations on the forums and I don’t use PM much. I don’t have anything to say about this that I can’t say out here. I hope you don’t mind.
 
Kevin812 said:
To the OP, my interpretation of what you are saying is that OFS is it’s own biggest enemy, I would agree. This is a very common problem.
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PS, Kevin, this was the quote that caused me to use the word “troubles.” Well, that and the invitation in the same post to inbox you about something, I know not what. Anyway, I’m sorry if I misunderstood what you said.
 
Kevin and iloveangles just remember one thing on here. Everyone should always assume good faith about what everyone on here writes. Since we are only on a bulletin board we only see what each other is writing. We can not hear tones of voice, inflection, and other things that people do in talking face to face or even on the phone. Just always assume everyone is saying things with good intentions. Some of us aren’t always good with writing. Personally I am an Electrical Engineer and have a much easier time with numbers then stating exactly what I mean. That is why I love when Brother JR enters a thread because I wish I could write as well as he does. This is why I don’t think that some people’s ideas of living a fraternal live via the internet will work. A lot gets missed, even if you have things like web-cams, voice chat and things like that set up. You miss a lot of the human element. Yes things like that can substitute for short term, when someone is to sick to show up for normal meetings, temporary reassignments, etc. but should never be thought of as the norm. It should be a big red flag if someone seeks to be a member of the Order but doesn’t want to participate in fraternity life at all.

As to Kevin’s quote:
OFS is it’s own biggest enemy, I would agree. This is a very common problem
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I personally do not agree with that statement at all. I am not sure Kevin meant it the way it sounds but personally I don’t think the Order is its own biggest enemy. I honestly think the Order is in good hands and is progressing in an excellent manner. Are there problems with individual members, individual fraternities, regions and even nations? Yes

I have seen nothing that seems to indicate these issues are problems with the Order as a whole. SFO/OFS has a couple growing pains to endure now that it has regained its autonomous status. The problems that seem to be on a large stage seem to be minor. On the scheme of things, how major are issues like are we called SFO or OFS? How major are things like so and so person that doesn’t agree with Church teaching may be speaking on topics that do agree with Church teaching at a national convention? They are all issues that can be dealt with under normal procedures and/or new better-formed generations taking control within the Order. I think the Order in its current form guided by St. Francis and St. Clare, assisted by our Religious brothers and sisters, mentored by the Holy See, led by the Holy Spirit and the Franciscan patroness Lady Poverty is in excellent hands.
 
Whoaa, folks. Timeout,timeout!! :tsktsk:

Just a reminder of standard debating protocol. All such debates can be productive as long as we abide by certain norms. 🙂

We do not ad hominem the person who submits a proposal, we comment on the argument. Remember that “I do not agree” is not a valid argument, but a sure sign of a last resort. Disagreeing a reasonable argument calls for a reasonable counter argument.

To help set the stage for these discussions here is a site that lists certain objectionable methods. forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=324134

Forgive me if I don’t answer, it’s probably because it has elements of mud slinging rather than a constructive contribution.

Remember the Francis way?
 
EvelynEVF said:
Here’s a possible analogy: You date someone. You make it through the milestone 3rd date. You both ask lots of questions, meet each other’s family and friends, date no one else. You get engaged and take the time for months of preCana. It ought to be the case that you’ve done due diligence and there would be no major surprises. BUT, each party is free to leave the relationship, or cancel or delay the wedding, right up until the last second. This is a lifelong commitment.

It’s sad when people sometimes lead each other on for selfish reasons. Still, even in the healthiest, most promising relationship, a third date guarantees nothing. Engagement doesn’t even guarantee a wedding.

Make sense?
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This is good. You will notice in your analogy and at this point in time that the only place either party has to address a problem is at the alter. This is because your system addressed issues at the milestones of your relationship. Either of you could have sent the person on their way at these points. At each of these points you assessed if there was reason enough to go on with the relationship (a pass grade so far in the fraternity). Notice here that in the fraternity analogy Francis is saying in effect “whatever you decide now you can’t make it an issue later”. (Admonition 25). If he comes to the ceremony (counsel) drunk, *then * this is a new issue and you could refuse to marry (refuse to admit the brother).
 
djames99 said:
The thread is mine, my option.
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You do not own the thread. You are just the first poster on the thread. Nowhere in the first post does it say this thread will be a debate. The only people that own the thread are the Catholic Answers Moderators.

If you want to make this a debate I am sure most of the rest of the people monitoring it will drop off. You are “debating” something that cannot change without a decree from the Pope. You are also debating something that already has methods for doing what you want, just in a different manner. Full participation in formation in all the stages will give you all the feedback you need. Being honest and open will give your formation team all the information they need in making an assessment. Doing anything else is not trusting the Holy Spirit.

You are trying to make the shoe change to fit the foot. Proper discernment involves either the shoe fitting right away or the foot changing to fit the shoe, not the other way around.
 
Thanks Evelyn, your information is constructive to the thread.

Of course I have experience only with my own formation and profession within my own fraternity, but there was a great deal of discernment and dialogue on both sides, during the whole initial formation period. There were no surprises–everything was discussed thoroughly.

Can you detail what was discussed at your final meeting so that we can get an insight of the atmosphere,questions and comments? You can leave the personal stuff out, I understand.
 
You are “debating” something that cannot change without a decree from the Pope.

The teachings which are not extraordinary also have influence through sensus fidelium(consensus of the Faithful). Vatican II “The whole body of the faithful who have received an anointing which comes from the holy one (1 John 2:20 &27) cannot be mistaken in belief. It shows this characteristic through the entire people’s supernatural sense of faith, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the Faithful’, it manifests a universal consensus in matters of faith and morals” (Dogmatic Constituition #12)

I believe there’s a way to contact the Vatican as well, but the more usual and respectful is to go thru the hierarchy. (which I guess would start by first presenting a problem on a Catholic forum such as this.)

Regardless, the Pope left the constitution has a foundation. The method of it’s implementation was left to the fraternity. Since the recommendations here deal with details in policy, I doubt a higher contact is needed.

The Holy Spirit I trust, a non penitent professed who claims to have the gift of discerning Him in others is what we all, including you, are trying to avoid.

I consider the remainder … debatable 👍
 
Marauder said:
Kevin and iloveangles just remember one thing on here. Everyone should always assume good faith about what everyone on here writes. Since we are only on a bulletin board we only see what each other is writing. We can not hear tones of voice, inflection, and other things that people do in talking face to face or even on the phone. Just always assume everyone is saying things with good intentions. Some of us aren’t always good with writing. Personally I am an Electrical Engineer and have a much easier time with numbers then stating exactly what I mean. That is why I love when Brother JR enters a thread because I wish I could write as well as he does. This is why I don’t think that some people’s ideas of living a fraternal live via the internet will work. A lot gets missed, even if you have things like web-cams, voice chat and things like that set up. You miss a lot of the human element. Yes things like that can substitute for short term, when someone is to sick to show up for normal meetings, temporary reassignments, etc. but should never be thought of as the norm. It should be a big red flag if someone seeks to be a member of the Order but doesn’t want to participate in fraternity life at all.

As to Kevin’s quote:

I personally do not agree with that statement at all. I am not sure Kevin meant it the way it sounds but personally I don’t think the Order is its own biggest enemy. I honestly think the Order is in good hands and is progressing in an excellent manner. Are there problems with individual members, individual fraternities, regions and even nations? Yes

I have seen nothing that seems to indicate these issues are problems with the Order as a whole. SFO/OFS has a couple growing pains to endure now that it has regained its autonomous status. The problems that seem to be on a large stage seem to be minor. On the scheme of things, how major are issues like are we called SFO or OFS? How major are things like so and so person that doesn’t agree with Church teaching may be speaking on topics that do agree with Church teaching at a national convention? They are all issues that can be dealt with under normal procedures and/or new better-formed generations taking control within the Order. I think the Order in its current form guided by St. Francis and St. Clare, assisted by our Religious brothers and sisters, mentored by the Holy See, led by the Holy Spirit and the Franciscan patroness Lady Poverty is in excellent hands.
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Thank you for the reminder, Marauder. I have to be very careful in internet forums because it is hard to understand sometimes what someone is saying. It’s not possible to see their face or their body language in here. Even now, with all of our technology, there’s nothing as good or effective as talking to a person face to face.

I agree about SFO/OFS. Growing pains are only to be expected at this stage of the order’s development. I don’t think the order is its own worst enemy at all, and in fact, I think it’s stronger than all its problems and stereotypes. I think that perhaps it’s in better shape than it’s been in many years, regardless of those problems and stereotypes, which will pass or be solved eventually. Besides, the order has St. Francis himself looking out for it.

Kevin, I’m sorry I picked out that sentence in the way I did. I didn’t mean to be confrontational or anything like that. I didn’t really know what you meant by it, and I still don’t, but that’s okay.

djames99,
There’s nothing to debate here. I have no idea what you are trying to do or why. It makes no sense to me.
 
djames99 I notice that is says you are a baptized Catholic wannabe. What does that mean exactly? If you are still trying to come to terms with the basics of the Catholic faith which is what this sounds like wouldn’t it be better if you did this before you tried to understand the Holy Spirit’s work in Vocation. After all, one of the things received through Confirmation are the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
Admonition 25 is about complaining behind a brother’s back. I’m not sure what this necessarily has to do with initial formation. If the council misses something early on, even if they are at fault for it, it is still their responsibility to deny profession for the good of the fraternity. Same with running away at the altar-- if a person doesn’t have the courage to bail until the last minute, that doesn’t mean s/he shouldn’t!

Possibly more on your other question later, when I have a real keyboard
 
djames99 said:
Thanks Evelyn, your information is constructive to the thread.

Can you detail what was discussed at your final meeting so that we can get an insight of the atmosphere,questions and comments? You can leave the personal stuff out, I understand.
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First I should specify that I had formation as an individual, with one or more formators, nearly every week, for the entire period. I visited fraternity members and helped them with their apostolates, and did errands for those who were infirm. So these people knew me before I was professed; I made sure of it. I had a major life change smack in the middle of it all, which to those on the outside could easily have appeared to be a Very Bad situation.

Each time there was a step to take, from beginning Orientation, which is very informal, through Welcoming and then acceptance as a Candidate, through Profession, there were personal conversations about the step and whether it was binding, what it meant, how did I feel about it, did I think I was ready. I believe I met formally with the Council to ask to be admitted to Candidacy, and then when requesting Profession. The thrust of the last conversation when I wrote my letter requesting Profession, was making sure I understood that this was Permanent Profession, not a club I could go to when it was convenient, but my whole life, and this had to take priority over many things.

E
 
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