Shall we sit, stand, or kneel to Pray?

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

I found this defense in our Roman Catholic Parish for not kneeling during the Consecration of the Holy Eucharist. I was wondering what you response to this defense would be? Appropriate? Inappropriate?​

When worshiping in another church, the priest says, “Let us pray,” and you might find yourself looking around to see what everyone else is doing - standing, kneeling or sitting?

There are five traditional postures for prayer.

Standing with hands uplifted and open, head up, and eyes open is the oldest posture for prayer. It is called the orans position, from the Latin word for praying. By praying this way, the worshipper acknowledges God as external and transcendent. This posture is for thanksgiving, praise, blessings, benedictions, and general prayers. This is still the normal position for prayers in eastern churches and in Jewish synagogues, and it is still used in the western church, particularly when the clergy bless the bread and wine of the Eucharist.
**
Standing with hands clasped at the waist, head bowed, and eyes averted or closed** is the traditional posture of a shackled prisoner of war who is brought before the conquering king. The hands are clasped at the waist as if they were shacked in chains. The eyes are averted - in ancient times, looking directly at one’s captor was insolent and a good way to get killed on the spot. This posture is for submissive petitions or for intercessory or penitential prayer, as we see in Luke 18:10-13.

Kneeling, either with the head up, eyes open, hands open, or with head down, eyes closed, and hands clasped is the traditional posture for requesting favors from a king, and so it became the traditional posture for prayers of prepentance or supplication. The Council of Nicea in AD 325 forbade kneeling on Sundays, because penitential prayer is not appropriate during a celebration of the Resurrection. In western Christianity, kneeling came to mean simple humility and submission, and so kneeling became the normal posture for most prayers in the west. However, to eastern Christians, kneeling still means repentance or supplication.
**
Lying one’s belly, hands up, either with the head up and eyes open or with the head down and the eyes averted or closed** is the traditional posture for begging favors for a king when the favors are great and the petitioner is either desperae or has - literally - no standing before the king. It became the traditional posture for desperate, penitential, or intercessory prayer and is still used in eastern churches which have plenty of room because they don’t have pews.

Sitting, head down, eyes averted or closed, and hands clasped. The Roman Catholic Church invented pews during the Middle-Ages, right before the Protestant Reformation. Since the Protestant Reformation was essentially a Christian education movement with very long sermons., the Protestants kept the pews even though they rejected just about everything else they regarded as a “Roman invention”. As a result, sitting has become the normal posture for prayer for many western congregations.
**
So, why don’t we kneel at St. Michael Church?**

Aside from the lack of kneelers, we adhere to the teaching that the Eucharistic Prayer is not the responsibility of the priest alone. Rather it is the prayer of the church. Although spoken aloud by the presider, it is the public prayer of the assembly, beginning to end.

Following the Memorial Acclamation, the priest says:

"In memory of his death and resurrection. We offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.
**
We demonstrate that thankfulness by actually standing** in God’s presence during the liturgy.

So, when do we kneel?

At St. Michael Church we kneel in awe and reverence before the tabernacle in which the reserved Body of Christ rests. position, form the Latin word for praying. By praying this way, the worshiper acknowledges God as external and transcendent. This posture is for thanksgiving, praises, blessings, benedictions, and general prayers. This is still normal position for prayers in eastern churches and in Jewish synagogues, and it is still used in the western church, particularly when the clergy bless the bread and wine of the Eucharist. May all of us who share the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit."

 

[passus]

Are we allowed to discuss this?

Moratorium on Lay Gestures at Mass

 

[Phemie]

I don’t think the OP’s question is covered by the moratorium, which is applied to something Rome hasn’t ruled on. In this case Rome has very much ruled on it by publishing the GIRM.

The OP’s parish does something totally opposite what is called for in the GIRM with an attempt to justify it by using one line from one of the Eucharistic Prayers. I know, because my parish used the same line to try to justify removing the kneelers from our church and also called for standing throughout the EP for the same reason.

I’m not sure that individual parishes have the permission to decide for themselves, I believe that they have to go with what their Bishop decides. He may limit kneeling to the words of Consecration, instead of the entire Eucharistic Prayer but I doubt he would say ‘no kneeling whatsoever’.

 

[tee_eff_em]

On the whole, my response is that the whole thing seems rather contrived.

Kneeling is acknowledged as having become “the normal posture for most prayers in the west”, but apparently not at St Michael’s. Pews (and sitting) are also acknowledged to be a western innovation, but I presume St Michael’s retains pews and the congregation sits at times? Good heavens, why not get rid of them and stand (or try that lying on one’s belly thing) the whole time?

Since the congregation stands, dare I hope that the faithful have been instructed to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects (is directed to genuflect) at the consecration?

tee

 

[chrisb]

Since the congregation stands, dare I hope that the faithful have been instructed to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects (is directed to genuflect) at the consecration?

Unfortunately, no.

 

[Corki]

I’m not sure that individual parishes have the permission to decide for themselves, I believe that they have to go with what their Bishop decides. He may limit kneeling to the words of Consecration, instead of the entire Eucharistic Prayer but I doubt he would say ‘no kneeling whatsoever’.

An individual pastor does not have the authority to decide this. Even for the kneeling after the Agnus Dei, the permission is diocese-by-diocese, not parish-by-parish and that’s not as universally a kneeling part of Mass as the Consecration is. Not even an individual Bishop can change the kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer. In fact, to change the kneeling to the end of the Great Amen, the entire USCCB has to ask for and get approval from the Vatican.

 

[passus]

I don’t think the OP’s question is covered by the moratorium, which is applied to something Rome hasn’t ruled on. In this case Rome has very much ruled on it by publishing the GIRM.

Well, in that case, I’ll dive right in!

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal says:In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise (43).
“We have no kneelers” is not an acceptable reason not to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer. As far as the Church is concerned, whether or not there are kneelers is simply a matter of how concerned a parish is for its parishioners’ comfort.

I suggest you contact the bishop yourself and let him know about what’s going on.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

Grace and Peace,

So, why don’t we kneel at St. Michael Church?

Aside from the lack of kneelers, we adhere to the teaching that the Eucharistic Prayer is not the responsibility of the priest alone. Rather it is the prayer of the church. Although spoken aloud by the presider, it is the public prayer of the assembly, beginning to end.

The ‘so’ would suggest that what preceded were the reasons for conclusion that followed. But in this case, it wasn’t so. The reasons listed do not even figure in the preceding paragraphs. Either someone had a lapse of logical reasoning, or was trying to establish his credentials before pulling a fast one.

That the entire prayer of the Mass is the prayer of the Church does not support one posture or another. In fact, the Eucharist is primarily the prayer of Christ first, and hence it is also the prayer of the Church, which is his Body. If the parish is really serious about adhering to the Church’s teaching that the Eucharistic Prayer is the prayer of the whole community also, it should celebrate its Mass ad orientem. When the priest faces the people in his prayers, it would look more like he is praying to the people, which diminishes the participation of the assembly in the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[benedictgal]

Here is the best justification,along with the official documents, that I can find on kneeling:

At this point we cannot forget the beginning of the “Decalogue”, the Ten Commandments, where it is written: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex 20: 2-3). Here we find the meaning of the third constitutive element of Corpus Christi: kneeling in adoration before the Lord. Adoring the God of Jesus Christ, who out of love made himself bread broken, is the most effective and radical remedy against the idolatry of the past and of the present. Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.

He preached his homily during the Solemnity of Corpus Christi. It was at this Mass that he mandated that the faithful who would be receiving Holy Communion from him should do so kneeling and on the tongue.

Intrestingly enough, the Ask an Apologist Forum tackled the same question today. Here is a link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=32565&highlight=kneel+consecration

I hope this helps.

 

[chrisb]

Was kneeling forbidden during Sundays at the Council of Nicea?

 

[japhy]

Was kneeling forbidden during Sundays at the Council of Nicea?

That was the discipline decided upon, yes. In the Eastern Catholic Churches (and the Orthodox as well), kneeling is simply not done in the Sunday liturgy. You stand for the whole service (or sit if necessary). But sometime after Nicaea, the Western Churches developed a tradition which did include kneeling, even on Sundays.

 

[japhy]

Aside from the lack of kneelers, we adhere to the teaching that the Eucharistic Prayer is not the responsibility of the priest alone. Rather it is the prayer of the church. Although spoken aloud by the presider, it is the public prayer of the assembly, beginning to end.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), in n. 311, says: “benches or chairs should be arranged, especially in newly built churches, in such a way that the people can easily take up the postures required for the different parts of the celebration and can easily come forward to receive Holy Communion”. It is irresponsible – and it defeats the laity’s ability to fully and actively participate in the Mass! – to build a church without kneelers.

I’m glad they don’t tell the laity to speak the Eucharistic Prayer out loud, but their explanation seems to be missing the traditional Catholic teaching on how the faithful participate in that great prayer. Read about that traditional teaching here.

 

[chrisb]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), in n. 311, says: “benches or chairs should be arranged, especially in newly built churches, in such a way that the people can easily take up the postures required for the different parts of the celebration and can easily come forward to receive Holy Communion”. It is irresponsible – and it defeats the laity’s ability to fully and actively participate in the Mass! – to build a church without kneelers.

I’m glad they don’t tell the laity to speak the Eucharistic Prayer out loud, but their explanation seems to be missing the traditional Catholic teaching on how the faithful participate in that great prayer. Read about that traditional teaching here.

I read this in a Latin Parish Bulletin and I responded so…

"In western Christianity, kneeling came to mean simple humility and submission, and so kneeling became the normal posture for most prayers in the west. However, to eastern Christians, kneeling still means repentance or supplication."

But even on our own assumptions, this conclusion doesn’t seem follow. No one has ever shown that kneeling is incompatible with praise and thanksgiving. In fact, the inspired Word of God teaches us just the opposite.

The prophet Daniel says: “And I knelt down on my knees three times a day to give thanks and praise to God” (Dn 6:11).

Interestingly, this passage is considered by Jews to be the basis for the three regular times of prayer at the synagogue. Moreover, the Liturgy of the Eucharist, as is generally recognized, is rooted in the Jewish Berakah (Gk: <eulogia>, Lt: <benedictio>). The Hebrew root of <Berakah> means to genuflect or kneel, and there were genuflections in the developed Jewish form of this prayer.

Should we not recognize that Rome and the North African Church predate Constantinople and Byzantine Traditions and that our traditions are much more influenced by Jewish practices than the practices of the Gentile Court? Perhaps this illuminates why the Byzantine Traditions developed their own piety in the face of these Gentile sensibilities but I get the impression that we get our tradition of Genuflection and Kneeling from Jewish Traditions. Maybe it’s not such a great idea using the Eastern Church as a means of countering our own?

 

[gelsbern]

“In western Christianity, kneeling came to mean simple humility and submission, and so kneeling became the normal posture for most prayers in the west. However, to eastern Christians, kneeling still means repentance or supplication.”

Very interesting quote, but I don’t know if I agree that kneeling simply means humility and submission. To explain why, I want to share with you the following.

I was born in 1969, so I attended the O.F. masses in the years shortly after it was implemented. I remember kneeling at the “Sanctus” now referred to as the “Holy Holy Holy”. My grandmother, who was a devout catholic explained to me when I was little that we kneel because we are praying as the angels prayed. I always wondered where she got this from, although it put a beautiful picture in my mind about all the angels kneeling in front of God all saying Holy Holy Holy.

It wasn’t until I got older that I understood where my grandmother, got this understanding. As I look at the difference between the O.F. and the E.F. it almost becomes obvious.

O.F.
Preface Dialogue:
Priest: The Lord be with you. All: And also with you.
Priest: Lift up your hearts. All: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God. All: It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Holy, Holy (Sanctus):
All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
[kneel]

Here is the E.F. and hopefully you will see it too. Keep in mind, in the E.F. the people are offering their prayers in silence along with the priest. P. = Priest and S. = Servers

E.F.

Preface
P: May the Lord be with thee.
S: And with thy spirit.
P: Lift up thy hearts.
S: We have lifted them up to the Lord.
P: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
S: It is meet and just.

  	The Priest says the appropriate Preface. This is the Preface of the Holy Trinity.

P: It is indeed fitting and right, our duty and our salvation, always and everywhere to give thanks to Thee, Lord, Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, Who together with Thine only-begotten Son and the Holy Ghost art one God, one Lord: Not in the oneness of a single person, but in the Trinity of one substance. For what we believe from Thy revelation concerning Thy glory, that also we believe of Thy Son and of the Holy Ghost without difference or separation. So that in confessing the true and everlasting Godhead, distinction in persons, unity in essence, and equality in majesty may be adored. Which the Angels and Archangels, Cherubim also and the Seraphim do praise: who cease not daily to cry out, with one voice saying:

Sanctus
The bell is rung thrice.

P: Holy, holy, holy Lord God of Hosts. Heaven and earth are filled with Thy glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

So, looking at the E.F. I can understand where my grandmother got that we are praying as the angels pray and that we are adding our voice (prayers) to the angels prayers kneeling before God.

That is what goes through my mind when I hear the Sanctus in the E.F. or the O.F.

Like I said, I just wanted to share my view of kneeling in prayer in general, because I feel that if the angels are knelt before the Lord in prayer, then who am I to not kneel as well. I kneel for almost any praying I do except for the blessing at meal time, when I stand.

The above is only a personal perspective on prayer in general and is in no manner an opinion regarding what should happen during the liturgy of the Eucharist. I cannot, nor will I, give an opinion on that.

 

[chrisb]

Very interesting quote, but I don’t know if I agree that kneeling simply means humility and submission. To explain why, I want to share with you the following.

I was born in 1969, so I attended the O.F. masses in the years shortly after it was implemented. I remember kneeling at the “Sanctus” now referred to as the “Holy Holy Holy”. My grandmother, who was a devout catholic explained to me when I was little that we kneel because we are praying as the angels prayed. I always wondered where she got this from, although it put a beautiful picture in my mind about all the angels kneeling in front of God all saying Holy Holy Holy.

It wasn’t until I got older that I understood where my grandmother, got this understanding. As I look at the difference between the O.F. and the E.F. it almost becomes obvious.

Here is the E.F. and hopefully you will see it too. Keep in mind, in the E.F. the people are offering their prayers in silence along with the priest. P. = Priest and S. = Servers

So, looking at the E.F. I can understand where my grandmother got that we are praying as the angels pray and that we are adding our voice (prayers) to the angels prayers kneeling before God.

That is what goes through my mind when I hear the Sanctus in the E.F. or the O.F.

Like I said, I just wanted to share my view of kneeling in prayer in general, because I feel that if the angels are knelt before the Lord in prayer, then who am I to not kneel as well. I kneel for almost any praying I do except for the blessing at meal time, when I stand.

The above is only a personal perspective on prayer in general and is in no manner an opinion regarding what should happen during the liturgy of the Eucharist. I cannot, nor will I, give an opinion on that.

I thought it was a great contribution. Thanks!

 

[brigid12]

I don’t think the OP’s question is covered by the moratorium, which is applied to something Rome hasn’t ruled on. In this case Rome has very much ruled on it by publishing the GIRM.

The OP’s parish does something totally opposite what is called for in the GIRM with an attempt to justify it by using one line from one of the Eucharistic Prayers. I know, because my parish used the same line to try to justify removing the kneelers from our church and also called for standing throughout the EP for the same reason.

I’m not sure that individual parishes have the permission to decide for themselves, I believe that they have to go with what their Bishop decides. He may limit kneeling to the words of Consecration, instead of the entire Eucharistic Prayer but I doubt he would say ‘no kneeling whatsoever’.

Individual latin-rite Catholic parishes do not have the permission to decide for themselves, and even their diocesan
bishops don’t in this matter. The diocesan bishops had to get even their changes to the GIRM ratified by the Pope.

 

[Phemie]

Individual latin-rite Catholic parishes do not have the permission to decide for themselves, and even their diocesan
bishops don’t in this matter. The diocesan bishops had to get even their changes to the GIRM ratified by the Pope.

That would depend on the USCCB. When the previous GIRM was in effect, the US had an adaptation in it about the kneeling during the EP. While at the beginning it was a US-wide adaptation, after several years the USCCB gave individual bishops permission to decide for their own diocese.

In Canada it was always up to the individual bishops, some of whom decided to leave it up to the individual pastor to decide for his parish. Some parishes in my diocese kneel for all the EP, some only for the Consecration and some not at all.

 

[chrisb]

That would depend on the USCCB. When the previous GIRM was in effect, the US had an adaptation in it about the kneeling during the EP. While at the beginning it was a US-wide adaptation, after several years the USCCB gave individual bishops permission to decide for their own diocese.

In Canada it was always up to the individual bishops, some of whom decided to leave it up to the individual pastor to decide for his parish. Some parishes in my diocese kneel for all the EP, some only for the Consecration and some not at all.

That is my diocese too. Welcome to the club.

 

[brigid12]

That would depend on the USCCB. When the previous GIRM was in effect, the US had an adaptation in it about the kneeling during the EP. While at the beginning it was a US-wide adaptation, after several years the USCCB gave individual bishops permission to decide for their own diocese.

In Canada it was always up to the individual bishops, some of whom decided to leave it up to the individual pastor to decide for his parish. Some parishes in my diocese kneel for all the EP, some only for the Consecration and some not at all.

I know that in some instances there have been some in the hierarchy in the US who ignore as much as possible of what the Holy Father does/says. I don’t know that that is the case here. I do know that I would feel skeptical, simply because the USCCB is not a juridical body, unless there is ratification from the Pope. Now, whether he has given them (or individual bishops) permission to alter some of the above, I certainly don’t know. I would want to look into it, if it was my own diocese. I wouldn’t want to be in disobedience (indirectly) to the Pope!

 

[Phemie]

I know that in some instances there have been some in the hierarchy in the US who ignore as much as possible of what the Holy Father does/says. I don’t know that that is the case here. I do know that I would feel skeptical, simply because the USCCB is not a juridical body, unless there is ratification from the Pope. Now, whether he has given them (or individual bishops) permission to alter some of the above, I certainly don’t know. I would want to look into it, if it was my own diocese. I wouldn’t want to be in disobedience (indirectly) to the Pope!

Since the section of the GIRM we are talking about is an adaptation – the universal is to kneel only at Consecration – the USCCB needed approval from Rome to have kneeling throughout. It would be well within their jurisdiction to allow the individual bishops to decide for their diocese whether to follow the US adaptation or the the universal norm.