Shame

[distracted]

While I don’t mean to minimize the concerns originally posted, I do think that we all tend to get caught up in the heat of the moment and say things which we otherwise might not. That somebody does go off the deep end and make an error in judgement on how they speak is not necessarily a true reflection on their character or the sincerity of their faith. We as Christians are all called to be Christ-like, and none of us are as Christ-like as we ought and are called to be, otherwise there would have been little need for Christ.

We are commanded to love our enemies and pray for them. But that does not make our enemies any less our enemies. While it is important to be magninimous and charitable toward them, it is vitally important to correct them when they are in error and to defend the Truth.

Very good… but part of being a Christian is to learn how to change and grow in Christ… No, it is not easy being kind and charitable when we don’t feel like it… but hey, Jesus didn’t feel like dying on a Cross either…

 

[distracted]

7 posts since last December (including the OP of this thread) !

i don’t understand this Post

 

[distracted]

I understand the feelings, though sometimes its good to set feelings aside… as i suppose you have. Feelings can rule a person, maybe particularly us women (!?). No, i don’t mean to be sexist… I don’t think its a bad thing to be “emotional”. I believe men are just as emotional, its just that they try to hide their emotions… but anyway…

Maybe you realized there was something here worth overcoming hard feelings for… Whatever the situation, i’m glad you returned because you sound like someone who is really searching for answers, not just trying to argue or what have you…

I am pretty thin-skinned (…or was) but i just figured that anyone who attacks me here for no good reason has a serious mental or emotional problem (both?) and that i don’t need to make his/her problem mine.

Anyway, i don’t know how i ended up here… was looking for something else…

 

[bdm3]

Very good… but part of being a Christian is to learn how to change and grow in Christ… No, it is not easy being kind and charitable when we don’t feel like it… but hey, Jesus didn’t feel like dying on a Cross either…

Absolutely correct. I’m not excusing unkind or uncharitable behavior, nor saying we shouldn’t try to grow and change, just pointing out that even the most righteous and saintly of us still fall far short of where we ought to be, no matter how much effort we put into learning and growing and changing. That’s what makes the Cross so powerful, that He loved us so much He was willing to die on the Cross for our sins, whether He wanted to or not.

 

[distracted]

Absolutely correct. I’m not excusing unkind or uncharitable behavior, nor saying we shouldn’t try to grow and change, just pointing out that even the most righteous and saintly of us still fall far short of where we ought to be, no matter how much effort we put into learning and growing and changing. That’s what makes the Cross so powerful, that He loved us so much He was willing to die on the Cross for our sins, whether He wanted to or not.

True enough… and another thing (or maybe its the same thing in different words??): We humans have such strong emotional, physical desires and “needs” that it is so hard… no, its impossible to be “good” all the time… We get very impatient.
As i just stated on another place on the forum… i’ve been celibate for "100 years ". OK, it just feels like it. But anyway, i do not always feel like being good. I do today. So praise God for that… I don’t even know why today i don’t care about… well, physical intimacy… but i also know that some day in the not-so-distant future, i WILL… And i hate ALWAYS having to say NO to my desires… (though maybe the worst is over???).
Anyway, i empathize with people who feel they cannot do the Catholic way of life… It can be difficult to the point of impossible… or seeming impossible.
Anyway, i am lost in thought and forgot the main point…
Well, i guess that is the point… It is not easy being Catholic all the time. Maybe that’s why so many of us on this forum tendto be grouchy or uncharitable…
It’s because we don’t get to do things other people do :crying: :whacky: :hypno:
op

 

[Montalban]

i don’t understand this Post

Just noting that the author of the OP is so concerned about the evil posts people are writing that he’s now urged to contribute his seventh post since joining quite some time ago.

 

[Mirdath]

Just noting that the author of the OP is so concerned about the evil posts people are writing that he’s now urged to contribute his seventh post since joining quite some time ago.

Hey, if I saw people with my beliefs saying some of the things some people have said on these boards to a minority audience posting in good faith, I’d think twice before adding to the pile (okay, the second time would be pretty fast, I’m just impetuous and subversive like that).

 

[cestusdei]

Let’s see:

Muslims torture and behead a Catholic. There are no protests, apologies, or anything. No shame.

I point out that it happened and ask why muslims do these things and don’t protest against them.

Muslims and others say I am “mean.”

But no one, muslims or others, spares a thought for the now voiceless dead that I brought to their attention.

Who are the true “mean” people here?

 

[Mirdath]

There are no protests, apologies, or anything. No shame.

None that you can be bothered to look for, apparently. I linked some in your last thread that got locked.

Who are the true “mean” people here?

Since you asked, I’m going to have to say it’s you. Do you post about anything other than Muslims and Mormons, and perhaps other people you hate that I’ve missed?

 

[tomch]

I posted 3 weeks ago that my Baptist Aunt had died. (I’m a recent convert to Catholicism). An “over the top” Catholic basically posted that she was most likely in hell.

The moderator shut the thread down quickly and removed this abusive person’s posts, and banned them from posting further. Thanks to the moderator for a job well done.

Every forum has its fair share of wackos. I think we can at least be thankful that there are hundreds more “balanced” folks out there who really care, and who post intelligently.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Are you a muslim? That’s who I was referring too.

No I am not a Muslim. But even if I were, that religion is worthy of respect. You know that the apparent fight for independence of outside interests, and the fanatical right, do not represent the true faith of Islam (or read Karen Armstrong). Some of your perceptions may have been politically skewed, and perhaps need some review.

Nor would we like to have the same factionalism within the Christian community, and that is what many of us work for.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

While I don’t mean to minimize the concerns originally posted, I do think that we all tend to get caught up in the heat of the moment and say things which we otherwise might not. That somebody does go off the deep end and make an error in judgement on how they speak is not necessarily a true reflection on their character or the sincerity of their faith. We as Christians are all called to be Christ-like, and none of us are as Christ-like as we ought and are called to be, otherwise there would have been little need for Christ.

We are commanded to love our enemies and pray for them. But that does not make our enemies any less our enemies. While it is important to be magninimous and charitable toward them, it is vitally important to correct them when they are in error and to defend the Truth.

We are first of all commanded to love our enemies, but also to forgive them. This is a hard lesson. But it is the issue of ‘correction’ that concerns me. The Church can Defend the Faith constantly, but it is surely not the job of individual members or even priests to ‘correct’ others because of the assumption that the Church is the fount of all true faith, and because pagans will go to hell if they do not turn to the Church.

I would rather say that each individual has a right to his or her own beliefs, and this is enshrined in international and national conventions.

Correction of errors is a difficult and patronising concept that I have fought with (in solitude) since I started posting. Perhaps I just do not like to be told something is absolute authority which I must accept with grace and humility. It is not in the nature of those trained to research and analyse to accept statements by others as to what we should or should not believe.

 

[Montalban]

Hey, if I saw people with my beliefs saying some of the things some people have said on these boards to a minority audience posting in good faith, I’d think twice before adding to the pile (okay, the second time would be pretty fast, I’m just impetuous and subversive like that).

As these sorts of discussions have always been going on, I find it odd that someone would take several months to notice.

Check out how many threads on Aisha there have been.

Every time someone raises the issue of Muhammad’s child bride we get a swathe of embarrassed relativists apologising to Moslems for having ‘insulted’ them by mentioning what they believe in.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Just noting that the author of the OP is so concerned about the evil posts people are writing that he’s now urged to contribute his seventh post since joining quite some time ago.

I also asked the same question of you immediately after you posted, because I was surprised to find the same kind of poking and shaming that we are talking about on this thread. Perhaps you did not understand. Perhpas you are in it for the adrenalin rush of putting others - who are genuinely trying - down. Perhaps you enjoy watching people being traumatised by smart… comments that do not move understanding, cooperation forward. Perhaps you do not understand compassion. Perhaps the teachings of Christ are not accessible to you. Who can know?

We shall pray that your understanding and compasssion are in future blessed by stronger life in Christ.

 

[Montalban]

No I am not a Muslim.

This is a typical relativist/apologist response that is devoid of fact.

Islamic violence pre-dates western imperialism. It pre-dates the creation of the USA, in fact, it dates from the Koranic days where Muhammad urged people to murder, and lie.

Karen Armstrong embarrassingly apologises for this all the time with her wish to date all these troubles to the Crusades, or the modern globalising world.

Here are some facts…
PoWs were murdered…
“And He has caused to descend from their strongholds the Jews that assisted them. And he struck terror into their hearts. Some you slaughtered and some you took prisoner”
Sura 33.25

“Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa’, the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.”

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.362

Here’s an example of Muhammed allowing someone to lie, in order to murder someone else.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! **Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” **Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Let’s see:

Muslims torture and behead a Catholic. There are no protests, apologies, or anything. No shame.

I point out that it happened and ask why muslims do these things and don’t protest against them.

Muslims and others say I am “mean.”

But no one, muslims or others, spares a thought for the now voiceless dead that I brought to their attention.

Who are the true “mean” people here?

We can only postulate without authority. I have worked with Muslims for years. I read about Muslims, and I read a lot of novels and other materials written by Muslims. I am ‘godparent’ to two beautiful Muslim children. But that is not authoritative.

We are focussed on a particular kind of Muslim: one principally out of the middle east or Afghanistan whose faith has been rubbed raw not only by international events, but also by the difficult circumstances in which they live. Some have suggested that if we assume that (1) their faith is completely tied up with their politics; and (2) their lifestyle is much like that in the feudal period in England when Crusaders set out to lay waste Jerusalem and other parts. With regard to (2), it is possible that they are just a bit behind us in physical cruelty based on cultural lifestyles.

 

[Montalban]

I also asked the same question of you immediately after you posted, because I was surprised to find the same kind of poking and shaming that we are talking about on this thread. Perhaps you did not understand. Perhaps you are in it for the adrenalin rush of putting others - who are genuinely trying - down. Perhaps you enjoy watching people being traumatised by smart… comments that do not move understanding, cooperation forward. Perhaps you do not understand compassion. Perhaps the teachings of Christ are not accessible to you. Who can know?

It seems to be a common practice that if someone stands up against Islamic violence, they themselves get pilloried by Christians who don’t understand anything about Islam.

We shall pray that your understanding and compassion are in future blessed by stronger life in Christ.

I hope people pray for the courage to stand up for truth. Your argument (replied to above) shows a gross misunderstanding of history and Islam.

Not too, that no where do I urge violence against Moslems. I find it quite amazing that someone who simply chooses to engage people in debate is seen as vile, but the Moslems who promote such evils - well you make excuses for them.

 

[Montalban]

We can only postulate without authority. I have worked with Muslims for years. I read about Muslims, and I read a lot of novels and other materials written by Muslims. I am ‘godparent’ to two beautiful Muslim children. But that is not authoritative.

Indeed it is not, for I have done the same thing and I don’t offer my personal experiences as a matter to counter yours. I’m dealing with facts.

The best you’ve come up with so far is to wave someone in the direction of former nun Karen Armstrong.

We are focussed on a particular kind of Muslim:

That’s simply not true. I’ve introduced Islamic teachings on this matter. Moslems aren’t even supposed to have non-Moslems as close friends - that’s how much they despise others.

Koran

5:51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya’ to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya’, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

Really the only time they are supposed to is in order to get new converts, or out of necessity.

It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=69876&ln=eng

 

[Carol_Coombe]

This is a typical relativist/apologist response that is devoid of fact.

The fact that I am not Muslim is not devoid of fact. I am a would-be convert to RCC.

You are knowledgeable, or else you have done your homework quickly. Probably knowledgeable.

But you know perfectly well that we will find the same kinds of historical and scriptural facts - and that these have been laid out for us time and time again. Dawkins the Egregious points out for example just how awful our God seems to be in the OT. I have set up a thread on this to garner opinions and evidence, as a matter of information.

Muslims are not evil; Christians are not evil. Neither are they absolutely good. They are people.

 

[Montalban]

You’re not even considered a ‘brother’ of a Muslim
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, “This is my brother,” when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm