Shame

[Imryl]

Cestusdei -

In all honesty some of the comments I’ve seen you make, make me quesiton some of your previous claims. You should take a few moments to sit back… re-read some of your previous posts and reflect on not only on what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is, online communications don’t relay inflection in your voice or the intentions that may be conveyed through your expressions.

No one is asking you to not be angry. But your energy would best be spent praying for their souls (victims and muslims alike) then over generalizing an entire religion.

Instead of using venom, try some syrup. It goes down a little easier.

I know that from personal experience

 

[cestusdei]

I find muslims are averse to facing up to their persecutions of my co-religionists. The quiet approach has failed. So I proclaim it loudly in a way they can’t ignore. I realize they don’t like it. But we don’t like having our heads chopped off either.

 

[Imryl]

I find muslims are averse to facing up to their persecutions of my co-religionists. The quiet approach has failed. So I proclaim it loudly in a way they can’t ignore. I realize they don’t like it. But we don’t like having our heads chopped off either.

Sounds to me you’re caught up in the moment. Go ahead and fan the flames sir. Consider who you might actually be helping.

Be as loud as you want, but show some restraint.

 

[kell0618]

You don’t really believe you get perfection from the Catholic Church, do you? Certainly, we can agree that the Church has made mistakes in the past?

People make mistakes; the Church does not as Christ is the head of our Church. The Church is perfect as is Christ.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I don’t say you’re a Moslem.

Frankly I come against this apology so often that I have a file of citations from the Koran, hadith, Islamic web-sites etc that simply shows people who have your ideas simply got them from someone who misrepresents Islam, and probably, in all honesty believe that everyone wants to be as nice and peaceful as yourself.

I NEVER tire of meeting with arguments such as yours. I used to think such was a form of cultural cringing where people were embarrassed that Christianity was successful in spreading its message.

However, you’re more than welcome to take your time and introduce any facts you want.

This is a strange argument to make. You’re saying that Dawkins had made a false comparison, so therefore all comparisons must equally be false. Let’s actually judge things by their merits.

I’ve drawn a connection between Islamic teachings and their behaviours. The fact that Dawkins can’t do this with Christianity doesn’t negate my argument at all. Dawkins is patently against all religions anyway. Even ostensibly peaceful ones such as Buddhism and Jainism.

I agree that people are not necessarily evil. However some seek to lower themselves by following the tenets of evil

You must surely agree that there are ideologies that are repugnant. This is what I’m judging. Islam, and those that properly follow it.

Perhaps you have become simply rabid in your responses to Islam, which is not any more monolithic than Christianity, Hinduism (of which Jainism is a denomination/sect no?), or Buddhism. You cannot put all your venom into one bag, and drop it into the water. Muslims are the children of God; they use some of our scripture. You and I may not be believers, and we may not admire the way Islam has developed as a political/religious faith, but historically and now, they deserve our respect - except for those who are engaging in acts which violate their own faith.

And I suspect this discussion is far off topic, except that the outrage you portray is the kind of attitude that is hurtful to others, and not helpful on our spiritual journey.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

"Question: What is your advice concerning some Muslim minorities marrying disbelieving women who do not believe in the existence of a Creator and what is the effect of that upon the children?

Response: My advice to all Muslims is that they should not marry anyone who is not a Muslim.

Holy cow! If you are offering this up as part of a a critique of Islam, then I have to ask if it does not parallel an identical requirement of the Catholic Church? I am not sure that I understand how you think it differs.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

What’s the deal here? Start a new thread if you wish to discuss Islam.

To the OP, Carol, Mirdath (I will adress u later!) and others who have felt acrimony from CAF;

As a member for the last three years and an embarassingly frequent poster, I have to say that those of us who have been around for awhile and who love the faith, sometimes get a tad jaded by the relentlessly hostile and deliberate opposition we see here regularly. While internet discussion is not an ideal way to interperet people’s true motivation, we do develop a keen sense of what a person who comes to CAF is trying to achieve. Often, it is only to provoke, criticize, demean, humiliate, convert, strut, and show-off. Sometimes a new poster will begin posting with swagger and arrogance but calm down after a few go-arounds. Others approach more humbly, with a clear and earnest desire to learn and debate. If posters encounter hostility, it is often because they have approached the forums with a know-it-all platform. For old-timers, that can get tiresome.

OTOH, there are a few members who can’t seem to self-edit but if a new member hangs around long enough, they will learn who to avoid and not engage with those who seek only to do battle rather than debate.

My suggestion is to alert the mods if someone has been uniquely offensive or abusive. If it’s general unpleasantness, avoid those who lean in this direction and seek to engage with those who want real communication.

Mirdath,
I know at least two of the examples you have cited are grossly exaggerated because I was on those threads. No one compared you to Hitler (they were referring to the fact that more deaths occured under atheist regimes like Hitler’s) and the pedophile comment was in response to a discussion about the “instrisic disorder” of homosexuality and pedophila. Let’s be honest about our experiences here.
And let’s not forget - you give as good as you get. I was there during your much mod-edited discourse with RyanL!

Thank you for this, and for your care in bringing the thread back to its original purpose. I think we have seen the kind of provocative aggression that hurts us all, when we could be learning from it if it were expressed differently.

 

[Valke2]

People make mistakes; the Church does not as Christ is the head of our Church. The Church is perfect as is Christ.

Which Church is this? You are expressing an ideal, not a reality.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I believe the general trend of this thead is that if you criticse some religions, you’re being un-Christian, and un-charitable.

I hoped to show, in one case anyway, that such criticism is justified, as it’s the truth.

Jesus was never about denying the truth.

For those that believe that the truth could at least be sugar-coated, then they must also realise that a debate forum is simply about ideas. No one’s forcing people to read the posts.

The danger is that if you persist in presenting your argument as you are doing here, no one will read your postings (see advice on avoiding those who are known to distress us) and we can therefore not learn from the range of knowledge that you evidently have.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Mary is the chosen virgin and had the privilage to give birth to Jesus our saviour. And for the record, she wasnt 12 or 13, it is unknown how old she really was.
God chose her because she was without sin and was the most special. She was married to Joseph who was to be the earthly father to Jesus.
And if I was you, i wouldnt be saying such things about God, but since you did, I would get down on my knees and beg for his forgiveness, and while your at it, Jesus and Mary’s forgiveness.

While I agree that Mirdath’s was the kind of off-hand slang that hurts and humiliates and offends and defiles, I do think that she deserves a big sorry for the offense that was made against her in the postings she quoted.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I have been on this web site for a few months now and I am very saddened at how My fellow Catholics have acted. I have read time after time the name calling and the utter hatred to our fellow man because of either a different stance on Christ our beloved savior or Islam. What did Christ say about loving your fellow man? What did Christ say about loving your enemy? What did Christ say about the most important commandment was? Finally, When Our Lord And Savior was on the cross, what did Christ ask for to Our Father and Maker. FORGIVE THEM FATHER FOR THHEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. I love being Catholic. I believe that I am in the one true church and that what the Church teaches and what Christ our savior taught is the only truth. This is why I am very sad at what some of my fellow Catholics have said and I am sorry for all of them. I know, there are those who condem us and do evil deeds to us now. Jesus himself went through much pain to save us. I only ask you my fellow Catholics to pray for others. Put down your sword and pray that they may one day Find the true church and follow Christ fully. God bless and I will be praying with you.

God Bless You!

 

[Jayda]

Which Church is this? You are expressing an ideal, not a reality.

hola Valke2,

when Catholics write church with a lower case that means individual parishes or churches or denominations, but when it is capitalised it always refers to the Holy Catholic Church which is the entire Catholic faith under the vicarship of the Holy Father and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. that is the one she is talking about…

que Dios te bendiga

 

[jack_hawkins]

That’d likely be because you’re Catholic. I’m not, and I have run across quite a lot of it here. For a while I considered keeping a list – high points include being told I’m morally equivalent to a pedophile (for owning a tarot deck that I don’t even believe possesses any mystical properties), being harassed via PM, and being compared unfavorably to Hitler.

Anyway, thanks d40gmar It’s posts like that that remind me Christianity possesses such a great philosophy, in spite of many of its so-called adherents’ abandonment of it.

Well some might consider it rather odd making comments about others’ beliefs when you haven’t even been able to make your own mind up and frankly bizarre that you frequent a Christian site when you’re so undecided
if it’s a great philosophy, how can someone “abandon” it? I think you’re getting yourself more and more confused personally

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Atrocities are committed every day, but Islam is “worthy of respect”! Are you serious? PC gone mad. Islam teaches hatred and intolerance towards non-Muslims.

Here’s a list of the intolerant teachings of the Quran:
faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm

Violent Islam is the true Islam!

You may claim not to be Muslim, but your comments speak loudly. Mentioning Karen Armstrong is a complete giveaway since she’s an apologist for Islam.

Vickie

OK go read Edward Said, who taught in America for years, and was one of the last century’s great intellects. If you have doubts about Karen Armstrong that are based on actual evidence, then read her (her knowledge is vast) with an analytical mind, with scepticism if you must, but read. If you are educated by CNN, or NBC or ANOther American network, then I suspect (I am trying to be gentle here believe it or not) that you are not terribly well informed, and perhaps lack the selectiveness necessary to make an informed intellectual opinion or choice.

Or go talk to a group of Muslims. Or find a Muslim friend, or a bunch of them, as we have done. Find out what their faith says, and what it does not say. They are not apologists for their religion: they are the faithful, who complete the hajj and mini-hajj several times in a lifetime, whose children are raised in the faith, who are peaceful and engaging. Our faith and theirs intermingles, and we try to observe Ramadan with them.

Do you know what the hajj is, or what Ramadan is? Vinoba Bhave? Rabindranath Tagore? Mahatma Gandhi? Do you have knowledge based on fact about faiths outside your own?

I understand your political fury at Islam at the moment, if you are American. You might understand our political fury at America at the moment (I am a Canadian in South Africa, and would-be convert to Catholicism). You might also think that Islam is far from monolithic: that it has denominations just as Christendom has, some of them engaged now in the terrible internecine civil war being waged in Iraq post invasion.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Yeah I am so mean. When was the last time I beheaded someone and shouted God is Great or encouraged others to do so?

Oh Lord, we cannot even keep a thread that is meant to explore how we relate to each other as Christians relatively clean, civil, reasoned, and appropriate to our life in Christ (although I recognise there are those who may not be Christian).

I think this demonstrates that there are perhaps some who are here for the adrenalin rush, and simply cannot control provocative behaviour. I feel better for having proof on this thread. It’s like a blasted catfight!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Maybe they could respect our faith. For example by not butchering Christians and enslaving them in Sudan or beheading them in Saudi Arabia or burning churches in Indonesia…Maybe they need to review their faith.

OK come back to me now (I am being teacher here) with some evidence of what we Christians/Americans/Brits are doing to them. It is only when we have looked reasonably at both sides, at the evidence we have, that we can make volatile and presumptuous statements which come anywhere near the truth.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I find muslims are averse to facing up to their persecutions of my co-religionists. The quiet approach has failed. So I proclaim it loudly in a way they can’t ignore. I realize they don’t like it. But we don’t like having our heads chopped off either.

Yabut, there is no point in shouting at us. We may agree with you, we may disagree, but we are not Them. We are not Them. You need another Forum if you want to discuss your views of Islam.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I have to say that in my area there are many militant Islamists, which naturally affects my view of Islam. However there are plenty of Muslims who follow natural morality and laws who want o peacefully co-exist. AS you say rightly say, Carol, there is a lot of political opposition to Islam the political system, and no doubt some posting is a cathartic process (myself included) given the state the world is in at the moment. Islam(ism) has become the successor to the second world in opposing the first.

 

[Mirdath]

While I agree that Mirdath’s was the kind of off-hand slang that hurts and humiliates and offends and defiles, I do think that she deserves a big sorry for the offense that was made against her in the postings she quoted.

I quite agree, I wasn’t trying to be nice about it at all. It’s rather hypocritical to be horrified and offended at something practiced by the leader of another religion when much the same thing was instrumental to the founding of your own, isn’t it? Mohammed has been repeatedly denounced as a pedophile here (in spite of the fact that Aisha’s age at marriage is heavily disputed by scholars) – if that’s so, why hasn’t Joseph?

 

[cestusdei]

Because we don’t know how old Mary was, but she had to have been child bearing age at least.

We do know that Aisha was nine. NINE. do you think having sex with a nine year old is a good thing? Yes or no.