She divorced me because i left dishes by the sink

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If marriage is a vocation, then training is a necessary aspect of that. Since spouses are the ministers of the sacrament to each other, it would make sense that at least a significant portion of the training for their particular marriage would be each spouse teaching the other. I think the particular form of training is more like peer mentors than like a parent-child dynamic, at least ideally it should be.

My husband has helped me to learn to do many things, or to do them better, and I have helped him. A large part of marriage includes accommodating or pleasing one’s spouse. So I don’t think that anything negative should be assumed about the idea of spouses training each other, unless disrespect is obviously being given.
I get your point but that word “training” makes me cringe. I would never use that word to describe my wife and I learning together…
Our house uses football terminology almost constantly.
So my wife and I practice, review game film, and take reps to make sure we are reading from the same playbook. Many times if we are off a little we tell the other one that we need to be playing for the same team. Then we quote some random coach. It’s fun. Especially in the bedroom…
 
I get your point but that word “training” makes me cringe. I would never use that word to describe my wife and I learning together…
No I wouldn’t either, but was merely trying to say that the concept of spousal mutual training is a good one, even if the use of the word “train” is objectionable. I don’t talk about it that way, because when I think of the word train, I think of choo-choo trains or potty training or athletic training. Not mutual betterment or mutual support. I like your way of saying learning together.

Although, my husband used to take offense at any time I knew how to do something that he didn’t know how to do. Something about he should always be better at things than me, because he is smart and I am a girl. :rolleyes:😃
 
No I wouldn’t either, but was merely trying to say that the concept of spousal mutual training is a good one, even if the use of the word “train” is objectionable. I don’t talk about it that way, because when I think of the word train, I think of choo-choo trains or potty training or athletic training. Not mutual betterment or mutual support. I like your way of saying learning together.

Although, my husband used to take offense at any time I knew how to do something that he didn’t know how to do. Something about he should always be better at things than me, because he is smart and I am a girl. :rolleyes:😃
I always tell my wife she is the second smartest person I know…😉
 
Here’s another example of “training.”

After about 15 years of me laundering and hanging my husband’s dress shirts, he suddenly decided that he wanted them hung up with the two top buttons unbuttoned so that he doesn’t have to unbutton them before putting on his shirt. He wanted me to wash them that way, too.

I had 15 years years behind me of unbuttoning shirts completely before laundering (not to stress the button stitching) and then buttoning them up to the collar when hanging (for maximum neatness). I couldn’t for the life of me remember to do it the way he wanted–my fingers were unbuttoning and buttoning without me thinking about it as I’d done literally thousands of times before.

What finally helped me flip the switch was my husband being around a couple of times when I was putting away shirts and coaching me through two shirts the “right way”. After I had done two, I could remember it, but previously, he’d reminded me probably a dozen times without me remembering that he wanted me to do the shirts that particular way.

Edited to add: I just looked it up, and as I suspected, the recommended shirt laundering method is to unbutton completely before laundering.

propercloth.com/reference/how-to-wash-a-dress-shirt/

Nothing bad has happened yet, though.
Laundry rules are completely overrated.

(Though now I say that, I realize I could be setting my boys up for a perceived housekeeping failure by their future wives…)

I sort DH’s clothes in the closet by which sport is currently in season. Does it bother me that he even has the number of articles of clothing that would necessitate this? It used to. But it makes him happy. 🤷

And he learned to tuck in the top sheet when he puts new sheets on the bed with the cute little corners so they don’t become untucked every single night, which makes remaking the beds a pain.

Really, for me it’s enough that he does at all. I’m an “acts of service” gal. I love it when he makes an effort to do things for me. Maybe that makes me a stereotypical banshee naggy woman. :rolleyes: But I don’t think so.
 
If marriage is a vocation, then training is a necessary aspect of that. Since spouses are the ministers of the sacrament to each other, it would make sense that at least a significant portion of the training for their particular marriage would be each spouse teaching the other. I think the particular form of training is more like peer mentors than like a parent-child dynamic, at least ideally it should be.

My husband has helped me to learn to do many things, or to do them better, and I have helped him. A large part of marriage includes accommodating or pleasing one’s spouse. So I don’t think that anything negative should be assumed about the idea of spouses training each other, unless disrespect is obviously being given.
Yes.

I guess it’s **vocational **training.

It can go too far (there’s a grandpa in our family who has the One True Way to do everything at home and he’s absolutely miserable to be around), but yes–it is necessary to teach your spouse how to be a good spouse to you. (Although it may take a while to figure out what you actually need.)
 
If marriage is a vocation, then training is a necessary aspect of that. Since spouses are the ministers of the sacrament to each other, it would make sense that at least a significant portion of the training for their particular marriage would be each spouse teaching the other. I think the particular form of training is more like peer mentors than like a parent-child dynamic, at least ideally it should be.

My husband has helped me to learn to do many things, or to do them better, and I have helped him. A large part of marriage includes accommodating or pleasing one’s spouse. So I don’t think that anything negative should be assumed about the idea of spouses training each other, unless disrespect is obviously being given.
While it is true that no one can teach someone about you quite the way you can, we have to also remember that the end of marriage is to make saints. In the monastery, your cell may teach you everything, but whether in marriage or in a religious community the way of the saints is for each one to put himself or herself aside well enough that an eternity with that person could someday be a thing of bliss! 😃

*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy,complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but everyone for those of others.

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;
and found human in appearance,
he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.*
(Phil 2:1-8)

Of course most of us have some thing that we have to have “just so” or else we think it is being done wrong, even if it is our insistence that there should not be a “just so” way of doing anything. The main thing is to ask for our eccentricities to be accommodated as a fault or as a weakness. Others who jump through hoops to please us ought to be given credit for indulging our vanity or our weakness. We shouldn’t congratulate ourselves for “improving” them because they have learned that we expect them to jump through hoops to please us. No, we ought to be grateful for that generosity.

Likewise, if we have to put our own way aside to satisfy someone else, that is no more than the work of becoming a saint. On a good day, we ought not resent it, but offer it to God as a way to get us out of ourselves.

On that account, I’d say it is better that we try to teach ourselves to want to prefer our spouse’s way of doing things over our own, provided we do not flatter ourselves and give more than we have the generosity to give. If you fancy yourself a martyr because you prefer yourself strongly in an inward way but don’t let on about it to others, you have your reward. No, you ought to be honest about what you have the generosity to give.

We also need to leave our pride behind and allow our spouses to cater to us, not acting as if we don’t need anything. If you give your spouse the pleasure of doing things for you that your spouse finds it a pleasure to do, that builds your relationship.

In the original article, neither spouse did that. One thought he should not have to change some little thing because it wasn’t important to him, while the other couldn’t bring herself to tolerate some little thing because her husband was too thick to see how it irritated her.
 
She divorced him because it was more important to him to write thousands of words (or, during their marriage pontificate for half an hour straight) about why he didn’t need to put the (#((%%## glass in the dishwasher than to put the )#)%(#$@#* glass in the dishwasher.
 
She divorced him because it was more important to him to write thousands of words (or, during their marriage pontificate for half an hour straight) about why he didn’t need to put the (#((%%## glass in the dishwasher than to put the )#)%(#$@#* glass in the dishwasher.
Funny!

And probably true!
 
She divorced him because it was more important to him to write thousands of words (or, during their marriage pontificate for half an hour straight) about why he didn’t need to put the (#((%%## glass in the dishwasher than to put the )#)%(#$@#* glass in the dishwasher.
True story:

Not too many years ago, my husband was convinced that it was much more efficient for him to 1) do whatever messy thing in the kitchen and 2) clean up the next time he used the kitchen, rather than using the kitchen and then cleaning up immediately. (I’m talking about wiping counters and table and putting away stuff, not dishwashing.)

I knew that this was wrong, but I could never come up with a convincing argument as to why. Finally, it occurred to me that 1) his method allowed time for the mess to bond like cement to the counter and table and 2) my husband is not the only person in our home, so it would be very likely that the next person in the kitchen inconvenienced by the mess would not be him.

So, yes, “logic” can be exhausting to deal with in daily life, as also just plain wrong.

(I have many peccadilloes of my own, of course. For example, there was a time when I believed a $10k a year preschool was perfectly reasonable.)
 
Everybody needs that.

I’ve told the story before of helping my mom make a relish dish for grandma’s Thanksgiving party. Mom, bless her heart, hovered over me the whole time to make sure I was cutting the celery and carrots to her approved length. No wonder dad never started helping much at home…

Likewise, my husband, bless his heart used to give me a hard time about the frequency of my grocery shopping trips (I prefer 2-3 smaller runs a week). Couldn’t I do it all once a week? He used to ask me, “Do you REALLY need to?” when I mentioned I was going to the store. He did the same thing with my haircuts–I’d have an inch of bangs over my eyes and he’d ask me if I really needed to get my hair cut. I eventually realized (and I told him) that he was destroying my self-esteem and self-confidence. If I as a SAHM, aren’t smart enough to decide by myself if I need to buy milk or get my bangs trimmed, what am I smart enough to do?
Oh of course, I agree. I merely cited the man in this case since that was the focus of this story and most comments. And I agree with the notion that the concept of love languages may be at play here. My wife’s love language is quality time, and I often find myself bringing flowers, love notes, or words of affirmation. While she likes these, she gets more out of my time. Words of affirmation is my love language. Very common with men. As a man, I like being affirmed. Quality time is fine, but I am also fine with solitary work and activities. I have to remind myself that what resonates with me is not what my wife needs and desires.

More to the point with this story, no one, man or woman, likes being constantly told, even nicely, a better way to do something. Unless it is critical, I try and let my wife do many things the way she sees fit. Why would I care how she folds my clothes? It’s clothing… Likewise, I am too busy to concern myself with whether or not she should be putting more oregano in the marinara. Households have enough to do with two people, and if one person is going to insert themselves into every activity, you start to adopt an atiitutde of “why don’t you just handle it?” But that simply isn’t feasible.

Constantly being told (even in a suggestive or helpful way) a “better” way to do something isn’t really helpful. It is annoying at best, and demeaning at worst. Fair or not, you can begin to feel like “if I am such a moron that I can’t decide whether or not the silverware goes in face down or face up in the dishwasher, why did you marry me? And why do you let me watch our children? I might accidentally put our one-year old in the dryer, you know…”
 
Train your husband? Does that work in reverse? Does he get to tell the guys it took a year to train you to dress pretty?

See how demeaning that can be?
Oh, for Pete’s sake, chill out. He doesn’t mind if I refer to it that way.
 
Don’t know why you are keeping track of how many times he left the seat up though. Is there a purpose? 🤷
Yes. Teasing. 😃

Every time he does it, I give him the latest count and remind him I am keeping tabs. 😉
 
Yes. Teasing. 😃

Every time he does it, I give him the latest count and remind him I am keeping tabs. 😉
That is funny. I like seeing other couples teasing each other. My husband and I tease or “bust chops” all the time. Other people seem horrified by our teasing sometimes, because they don’t get that it is just our way. One of his favorites is telling me to “Submit, woman!” It is hilarious. 😃
 
Great story!

I had to have the same talk with my husband. I told him that I couldn’t let him load the dishwasher anymore because of the same reasons you mention. I asked him just to let me handle it, and I would gladly accept his help elsewhere. Well, he decided to start learning how to scrape plates and rinse and stack dishes and efficiently load the dishwasher instead. He took it as a challenge, since he has the time to learn. He is doing much better with his kitchen skills overall these days. I was fully ready to accept the kitchen being my total responsibility. But he wasn’t. Another happy compromise. I think it also helped when he heard from his dad about how dishwashers were invented to sanitize dishes, not wash them per se. And that it drives his dad nuts when people just load up dishes with tons of food stuck to them and expect the dishwasher to get it all. Because it doesn’t, inevitably, and then you are left with a baked-on mess. (My father in law was the BEST postpartum helper I have ever had. We had 4 course dinners with hams and vegetables and the kitchen was always tidied at the end of the day.). 😛
This is exactly what my husband had to explain to me. In all truth and honesty…I had no idea that was the purpose of the dishwasher.

I thought it was designed to wash dishes…🤷

In my defense…the very first dishwasher I ever used…in my life…was when my husband and I got married and purchased our first home. I was 28 years old.

One of me requirements was…it needed to have a dishwasher. If it didn’t…we would move on. It could be the “perfect house” with the price tag to boot but if their was no dishwasher…no thank-you.

I was tired of never having a dishwasher. My parent’s house had no dishwasher and I lived there for 20 years.
The two apartments I lived in after moving out for good, also had no dishwasher.

I had to learn how to use one…much to my husband’s chagrin and his patience wore out.

What is funny is that I used to lightly tease my husband’s great-aunt. After dinner she’d do the dishes.
She would literally clean every single dish, cup and utensil until they were totally spotless and then put them in the dishwasher.
For me…it was maddening to watch because she would take forever and would never let anyone help her.

After being banned from our own dishwasher…now I know exactly why she cleaned the way she did and also why she would never accept help.
 
I stick dishes in the dishwasher right from the table without scraping or washing a thing. Same for utensils, Tupperware, kids cups and bottles when we are using them. Often the sink never gets turned on unless I have a pot to scrub.

Everything comes out clean.

Ya’ll need better dishwashers!
 
Dinosaur here. I have a dishwasher. It came with the house 20 years ago.

I have never used it. It honestly doesn’t take that long for me to do dishes for our family of five. If I have to scrape and rinse and stack and load and unload, I would rather just wash them and get it over with.

Yeah, I’m weird that way. :whackadoo:
Don’t hate me for that.
 
I stick dishes in the dishwasher right from the table without scraping or washing a thing. Same for utensils, Tupperware, kids cups and bottles when we are using them. Often the sink never gets turned on unless I have a pot to scrub.

Everything comes out clean.

Ya’ll need better dishwashers!
I know!
 
I stick dishes in the dishwasher right from the table without scraping or washing a thing. Same for utensils, Tupperware, kids cups and bottles when we are using them. Often the sink never gets turned on unless I have a pot to scrub.

Everything comes out clean.

Ya’ll need better dishwashers!
Yep. If you need to pre-rinse, there’s something wrong with the dishwasher. I wipe the worst off with a fork or a napkin and that’s plenty. I do clean the dishwasher every other month (not hard once you learn how) and fill the rinse aid dispenser with white vinegar every month. Ours is old and did not clean well when we moved in. There was who knows how many years of gunk lining the bottom.

We also use the fancy pants tabs now, but when they go on sale I get them cheaper than store brand powder or gel.
 
Yep. If you need to pre-rinse, there’s something wrong with the dishwasher. I wipe the worst off with a fork or a napkin and that’s plenty. I do clean the dishwasher every other month (not hard once you learn how) and fill the rinse aid dispenser with white vinegar every month. Ours is old and did not clean well when we moved in. There was who knows how many years of gunk lining the bottom.

We also use the fancy pants tabs now, but when they go on sale I get them cheaper than store brand powder or gel.
Same here, and our dishwasher must be 20 years old. The only stuff I ever have to pre-rinse is egg yolk or DD’s smoothie cups. A good dishwasher is a wonderful piece of equipment. 😃
 
Yep. I know everyone here HATES it when Ephesians 5 or 1 Peter is brought up, but wives are commanded to respect their husbands, ex officio. Husbands are commanded to love their wives, too, but the failure of one party to uphold his/her obligation does not imply that the other party is released from his/her obligation.
👍 Well said! Two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
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