Sheriff Dupnik's criticism of political 'vitriol' resonates with public

[Rich_Olszewski]

You want a better priceless benefit bequeathed to the world by the European colonial legacy? We made the Native Americans give up slavery. And torturing captives to death.

Fine explanation of the native beliefs. Sadly, having the Indians give up slavery didn’t also mean ending slavery by the European conquerors. Ending torture was, however, all to the good.

A fine movie, The Mission, described the efforts of Spanish Jesuits to protect native tribes from Portuguese slavers, and there was another film (name escapes me) about the efforts of a French missionary in 17th century upstate New York working with the Hurons and Algonquins.

 

[estesbob]

President Obama rose to the occasion and his sincerity, as was Michelle’s, most evident. There wasn’t any partisanship in his speech and it was one of his finest moments.

He gave a prepared speech from a Teleprompter. I’m sure that puts a thrill up the leg of all of his supporters but I would much rather he showed some competency in governing rather than show competency in giving speeches.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

He gave a prepared speech from a Teleprompter.

The speech would have been just as good if it had been written in pencil and he read it off a yellow legal pad. It’s the message, not the medium that counted.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Fine explanation of the native beliefs. Sadly, having the Indians give up slavery didn’t also mean ending slavery by the European conquerors. Ending torture was, however, all to the good.

A fine movie, The Mission, described the efforts of Spanish Jesuits to protect native tribes from Portuguese slavers, and there was another film (name escapes me) about the efforts of a French missionary in 17th century upstate New York working with the Hurons and Algonquins.

Isaac Jogues, Jean de Brebeuf and Jean Lalande, the North American Martyrs. There are others included.

 

[gilliam]

In connection with this particular topic, I think “The Great Spirit” of Native Americans was (and is) the one true God, as much as He could be understood by the simple people of that pre-Christian time and pre-colonial place. And before Native Americans could crowd the New World, and form empires, and mix all their diverse gods and religions together and become true polytheists, Europeans put an end to the process forever, and inadvertently ensured that Native Americans never lost their faith in that one simple, elemental creator being. .

Here in AZ we have mostly Pima, Papago, Maricopa, Apache, Navaho and Hopi (these are the white man’s names for these tribes). Before the white man came there really wasn’t a concept of one great spirit amongst the traditional beliefs of these nations. Some of the tribes believed in spirits dwelling in animals and parts of nature (e.g., the sky spirit of the Pima), but not all of them.

The man who gave the blessing last night is not a shamen, he is a professor at the U of A.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

One problem: doesn’t exist.

Okay, actually, the Ojibwa might have one, though “Great Spirit” (Gichi Manidoo) is probably just how the missionaries translated “God”. Wakan Tanka, the Sioux equivalent, means “Great Ineffable”, and has a lot more in common with the Platonic concept of the Realm of Form than anything we’d recognize as God (conceivably the Monad, the Form of the Good, might be in there somewhere, but…).QUOTE

This sounds like splitting hairs to me.

[QUOTEOut west? Nothing doing. The Hopi have no such thing; their cosmology is basically the Aztec religion, only exorcized (and not emanationist-pantheism). Their chief gods are the Sun (who’s about like Mars in pre-Hellenized Rome, or the light-god of Slavic myth) and Masauwu, the Skeleton, god of death and fire—and who, I kid you not, dragged himself out of the pit of fire where dead sinners are tormented. Nice guy, though. Other than that they worship a pantheon of weather gods, the Kachinas.]
QUOTE

Taiowa was considered the creator of Tokpela (Endless Space) by the Hopis–the original cause of all. Read Frank Waters’ book, p. 3.

came down out of abandoned temples

Yeah, Europeans didn’t do those things, did they?

No, I still think the priceless benefit bequeathed by the colonial legacy is a non-material, spiritual one. Behind whatever polytheistic propagation did occur, I strongly suspect you’d still find a monotheistic faith. Same with Old World peoples, but theirs was more deeply buried and more likely to be lost than in the more sparsely-populated New World.

But more to the point, do you agree that a “heathen” blessing should not have been given at the service?

 

[estesbob]

The speech would have been just as good if it had been written in pencil and he read it off a yellow legal pad. It’s the message, not the medium that counted.

Talk is cheap. I have a very hard time accepting his claims of compassion giving his stance on abortion .

He got elected to a job he was imminently unqualified for based on being a good speaker. We are still paying the price for that today- a price that cannot be undone by a speech.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Isaac Jogues, Jean de Brebeuf and Jean Lalande, the North American Martyrs. There are others included.

I’ve had the privilege of visiting Auriesville, NY, the site of the Iroquois village where they were martyred, several times. A holy place and a beautiful view from the top of a mesa of the Mohawk River and its valley.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Talk is cheap. I have a very hard time accepting his claims of compassion giving his stance on abortion .

He got elected to a job he was imminently unqualified for based on being a good speaker. We are still paying the price for that today- a price that cannot be undone by a speech.

Each of us to his or her own opinion of the President.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t know who that Yaqui guy was but apparently, the Yaqui religion is more or less dead—they’re almost all Catholic now. A lot of “Native American” religions are less than scrupulously accurate revivals, nowadays; think Wicca, or modern Druids.

First of all the “Yaqui guy” introduced himself at the before he made the invocation. He also gave his credentials and acknowledge permission from a higher power.

Second of all, the point was he appealed to a greater spirit outside of himself. It wasn’t wiccan, satanic, or anything. I think it’s okay to respect that tradition, which it appears to be, since you said they’re all Catholic now. Must have been some similarity.

I think that’s a step forward from religion of science professed by Obama at his inaugural speech.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve had the privilege of visiting Auriesville, NY, the site of the Iroquois village where they were martyred, several times. A holy place and a beautiful view from the top of a mesa of the Mohawk River and its valley.

I have Jones have great admiration for Issac Jogues . What always impressed me the most about Issac Jogues was after undergoing brutal torture and escpaing he begged the Pope to let him go back to continue his ministry.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

President Obama rose to the occasion and his sincerity, as was Michelle’s, most evident. There wasn’t any partisanship in his speech and it was one of his finest moments.

I totally agree. The President did a very good job of keeping the tone non-political and focusing on the families/victims. That is what everyone should be doing in regards to this tragedy.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I have Jones have great admiration for Issac Jogues . What always impressed me the most about Issac Jogues was after undergoing brutal torture and escpaing he begged the Pope to let him go back to continue his ministry.

And, as I received my education from the Jesuits in high school and college, you can be sure that those Jesuits loomed large in our panoply of favorite saints.

 

[estesbob]

And, as I received my education from the Jesuits in high school and college, you can be sure that those Jesuits loomed large in our panoply of favorite saints.

I am the product of the Jesuit education also-at least in college. That could be why we’re both so contrary!

 

[gilliam]

First of all the “Yaqui guy” introduced himself at the before he made the invocation. He also gave his credentials and acknowledge permission from a higher power.

Second of all, the point was he appealed to a greater spirit outside of himself. It wasn’t wiccan, satanic, or anything. I think it’s okay to respect that tradition, which it appears to be, since you said they’re all Catholic now. Must have been some similarity.

I think that’s a step forward from religion of science professed by Obama at his inaugural speech.

The Pascua Yaqui prayer was interesting. As was previously mentioned it seems to be a mix of white man’s religion (a great spirit) and a traditional spirit honor. But yes, most Yaquis if they practice any religion, practice Catholicism. The professor seems to be studying traditional Yaqui culture and wanted to try to express it. There is a Yaqui village not far from where I live.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Talk is cheap. I have a very hard time accepting his claims of compassion giving his stance on abortion .

He got elected to a job he was imminently unqualified for based on being a good speaker. We are still paying the price for that today- a price that cannot be undone by a speech.

While I agree with all of what you write, I believe you have to give Obama his due on handling this situation. A great improvement from the Cambridge fiasco. I think he’s finally understanding and respecting the “Office” which he represents.

 

[estesbob]

The Pascua Yaqui prayer was interesting. As was previously mentioned it seems to be a mix of white man’s religion (a great spirit) and a traditional spirit honor. But yes, most Yaquis if they practice any religion, practice Catholicism. The professor seems to be studying traditional Yaqui culture and wanted to try to express it. There is a Yaqui village not far from where I live.

The event was originally set up by local officials. I read yesterday that the Obama advance team was desperately trying to line up a Rabbi to give the blessings and find a tactful way to eliminate the Indian Blessing. Evidently they were not able to accomplish this

 

[Hastrman]

But more to the point, do you agree that a “heathen” blessing should not have been given at the service?

Maybe a real one, not a Pretendian one—problem is, the Indians near Tucson who still have their traditions, the Apaches? Yeah, they don’t talk about the dead, and won’t go near or look at a corpse.

Frank Waters was a convert to some kind of Christianity; there’s a great deal of doubt about a lot of the things he said. The Hopi really do not have a Great Spirit type of idea; Taiowa is basically the Aztecs’ Ometeotl. That’s not God, it’s more like the ancient Egyptian god Ptah.

And no, Europeans, even the English, didn’t do slavery or torture remotely comparable to what Apaches or Comanches or even Sioux did. I must’ve missed the gang rape of every female captive (standard Comanche practice) being a part of European war-laws—it wasn’t permitted, it was required. That was “Name, rank, serial number” for them. Admittedly the Sioux and Apache were basically just Viking-level bad, but very few Europeans got up to even that level.

 

[gilliam]

The event was originally set up by local officials. I read yesterday that the Obama advance team was desperately trying to line up a Rabbi to give the blessings and find a tactful way to eliminate the Indian Blessing. Evidently they were not able to accomplish this

I don’t know all the victims’ cultural heritages and can’t speak to whether a NA blessing was appropriate or not.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know all the victims’ cultural heritages and can’t speak to whether a NA blessing was appropriate or not.

Two of the victims, including the Congresswoman, were Jewish. From what I read none of the victims had a Native American heritage.