Shia view on sex with pre-pubertal girls

[Montalban]

It shows that there’s nothing special about the Islamic rules. Hence, the argument that this is an example of some insidious Islamic evil is wrong.

Excepting you’ve yet to show that this is endemic in America. It is an insidious evil, and it is in Islam. Insidious does not mean that it is ‘exclusive’ to…

You’ve yet to show its an American norm. And you’re comparing apples with oranges anyway, like if I point out something believed in Islam, and you rebut by exampling the Boy Scout movement.

America is not a religion. If it is in the law in some states (and you’re confused here about difference between ages of consent and ages of marriage) it doesn’t mean that the majority of Americans approve of it. You approve (by your silence) of Muhammed’s molestation of a child who, up until the time of their marriage was still playing with dolls.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro,
I’m sorry. Actually I was wrong about the five year rule. I’m truly sorry. I confused the APA DSM-IV-TR diagnosis of pedophilia with US Federal Law.

Here is the relevant statute:

1. Aggravated sexual abuse

How Current is This?

(a) By Force or Threat.— Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, knowingly causes another person to engage in a sexual act—
(1) by using force against that other person; or
(2) by threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
(b) By Other Means.— Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, knowingly—
(1) renders another person unconscious and thereby engages in a sexual act with that other person; or
(2) administers to another person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby—
(A) substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct; and
(B) engages in a sexual act with that other person;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
(c) With Children.— Whoever crosses a State line with intent to engage in a sexual act with a person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, knowingly engages in a sexual act with another person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or knowingly engages in a sexual act under the circumstances described in subsections (a) and (b) with another person who has attained the age of 12 years but has not attained the age of 16 years (and is at least 4 years younger than the person so engaging), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both. If the defendant has previously been convicted of another Federal offense under this subsection, or of a State offense that would have been an offense under either such provision had the offense occurred in a Federal prison, unless the death penalty is imposed, the defendant shall be sentenced to life in prison.

It’s really FOUR years. Happy now? hahahahah.

 

[Montalban]

I thought I posted this earlier. A few states have no minimum age for marriage, but all states require a court order for any marriage that involves a child under the age of 16. And from 16 to 18, all states require parental permission and/or a court order. I don’t know under what circumstances teh court would issue such an order, but I would guess that the circumstances must be extreme, as it hardly ever happens.

Thank you for refuting the Moslem apologist pro_universal here

The example in the USA is not ‘universally approved’ even within the realm of the USA.

It is in Islam, even if not universally practiced.

 

[Valke2]

That’s - so if the minimum age of marriage is not explicitly stated - there is a legal restrictions on marriages below the age of 16. At least there’re legal restrictions on old men having sex with young girls, eh?

But we’re not really talking about the marriageable age but the age of (sexual) consent and the morality of pedophilia or otherwise.

As far as I know, every state has a law against an adult sleeping with a minor. The age of what the state considers “minor” may vary. THere are legal restrictions on marriage in all the states. It is just that two of them (Arizaona and one other, I think), phrase the law that anyone under 16 needs a court order to marry, that 16 to 17 need parental consent. Other states phrase it as “you must be 18 to marry, or if you are under 18 but over 16, you must have parental consent.” Some states do not allow marriage under 16 under any circumstances. Those that do, require an order from the Court.

Nebraska, by the way, requires the couple to be 19 or older, instead of 18.

Of course, now that the Federal Government is terrified (for the purpsoes of election years) of same sex marriages, it is trying to pass a Federal Marriage Act. If it does so, it will wrest the laws of marriage from the State and it is possible that in the future, we’ll have a Federal mandatory age of consent.

 

[Valke2]

An Example: New YOrk State’s age requirements:

If either applicant is under 14 years of age, a marriage license cannot be issued.

If either applicant is 14 or 15 years of age, such applicant(s) must present the written consent of both parents and a justice of the Supreme Court or a judge of the Family Court having jurisdiction over the town or city in which the application is made.

If either applicant is 16 or 17 years of age, such applicant(s) must present the written consent of both parents. If both applicants are 18 years of age or older, no consents
are required.

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal in post #49 I asked you a direct question.

Leaving that aside, because I don’t want to embarrass you any more by pointing this out further, I’ll move on.

At best you’ve tried to show that a defence of Islam requires comparing a religion to a avowedly secular state (separation of church and state), by doing so you’re oddly enough debasing your own faith by saying that you’re god-given laws are that special, and that even the ‘Great Satan’ America does it.

Your highly amusing argument then also calls on the suspension of common sense by suggesting that in Islam, something that is near universally approved (if not practiced) is the same as something in America that’s neither universally approved nor practiced.

And you do come close when you compare a 14 year old with a 9 year old.

I could have just used your own non-argument anytime you attempted to introduce facts by stating the truism “People misquote facts” (anything to avoid a real argument, hey?)

 

[Montalban]

As far as I know, every state has a law against an adult sleeping with a minor.

And that too is different from Islam. There’s no laws in Islam about a 50 year old being with a 10 year old girl. (It seems to always work out that it’s a man with a girl)

 

[Montalban]

An Example: New YOrk State’s age requirements:

If either applicant is under 14 years of age, a marriage license cannot be issued.

If either applicant is 14 or 15 years of age, such applicant(s) must present the written consent of both parents and a justice of the Supreme Court or a judge of the Family Court having jurisdiction over the town or city in which the application is made.

If either applicant is 16 or 17 years of age, such applicant(s) must present the written consent of both parents. If both applicants are 18 years of age or older, no consents
are required.

Thanks, you’ve provided enough evidence that shows that the example of the “USA” is not the same as “Islam”.

 

[pro_universal]

But the courts take that into account.

In this publication a child molester is simply a significantly older individual who engages in illegal sexual activity with children.
How much older is “significantly older”? Clearly, in many cases, the dynamics of the case may be more important than simply the chronological age of the individuals. There are, however, some working guidelines. The rule of thumb that psychiatrists and others use is that there must be an age difference of five
years.{Reference: Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis. For
Law-Enforcement Officers Investigating the Sexual Exploitation
of Children by Acquaintance Molesters - US Department of Justice}

Courts do not take this into account at all. The idea of a criminal court convicting someone of fitting a DSM IV definition is ludicrous.

It is used for detecting possible cases that will fit the statute, it is not law. Period. Your explanation of this issue makes it abundantly clear that you have no clue what US law is on this subject, or how it works.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hey, if the 5 year rule is good enough for the US Department of Justice, it’s good enough for me.

And, Muslim, did you read my post re the US Federal Code 2241? Obviously not.

 

[pro_universal]

Hey, if the 5 year rule is good enough for the US Department of Justice, it’s good enough for me.

And, Muslim, did you read my post re the US Federal Code 2241? Obviously not.

It’s not US law. The DOJ has law enforcement arms, which use various psychological manuals for investigation…they do not constitute proof of a crime. You cannot be convicted for “fitting the profile of a molestor” in the US.

As for your citation of a federal statute, that only outlaws conduct where the perp crossed state lines with the intention to commit those acts. If someone starts out in a state where it’s legal to marry a 12 year old, marries a 12 year old there, and then sleeps with his wife, there is no imaginable way that statute would apply.

Face it, you do not understand US law, and you completely fabricated the rules to suit your claims. Just like you do with Islam.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

As for your citation of a federal statute, that only outlaws conduct where the perp crossed state lines with the intention to commit those acts. If someone starts out in a state where it’s legal to marry a 12 year old, marries a 12 year old there, and then sleeps with his wife, there is no imaginable way that statute would apply.

So? It shows that the US has laws that prohibit pedophilia. The Federal laws govern cross-border criminal activities. That is the Federal Law’s jurisdiction.

These laws are reflected in the individual state laws. Let me give you the example of Alabama:

Section 13A-6-66
Sexual abuse in the first degree.
(a) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the first degree if:

(1) He subjects another person to sexual contact by forcible compulsion; or

(2) He subjects another person to sexual contact who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless or mentally incapacitated; or

(3) He, being 16 years old or older, subjects another person to sexual contact who is less than 12 years old.

(b) Sexual abuse in the first degree is a Class C felony.

alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm

See the four year rule in operation here?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

You want to see another state law with the five (or four) year rule?

New York State Criminal Code
Section 130.75 Course of sexual conduct against a child in the first degree.

1. A person is guilty of course of sexual conduct against a child in the first degree when, over a period of time not less than three months in duration:

(a) he or she engages in two or more acts of sexual conduct, which includes at least one act of sexual intercourse, oral sexual conduct, anal sexual conduct, or aggravated sexual contact, with a child less than eleven years old; or

(b) he or she, being eighteen years old or more, engages in two or more acts of sexual intercourse, which includes at least one act of sexual intercourse, oral sexual conduct, anal sexual conduct, or aggravated sexual contact, with a child less than thirteen years old.

See the last para? Not US law, eh?

 

[pro_universal]

So? It shows that the US has laws that prohibit pedophilia. The Federal laws govern cross-border criminal activities. That is the Federal Law’s jurisdiction.

Not only is that not anything remotely like a blanket prohibition, it’s not anything to do with marriage. Furthermore, a federal attempt to regulate what married people may do in the bedroom will face a realistic and serious challenge. It’s rarely an issue, though, so we don’t know what the answer is on that one.

These laws are reflected in the individual state laws. Let me give you the example of Alabama:

Section 13A-6-66
Sexual abuse in the first degree.
(a) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the first degree if:

(1) He subjects another person to sexual contact by forcible compulsion; or

(2) He subjects another person to sexual contact who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless or mentally incapacitated; or

(3) He, being 16 years old or older, subjects another person to sexual contact who is less than 12 years old.

(b) Sexual abuse in the first degree is a Class C felony.

alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm

See the four year rule in operation here?

Yeah, that’s not five years, and it’s also not uniform state to state. There are fifty states.

It’s also not clear, in states where the marriageable age is not restricted, that this matters. The Federal government has a strong presumption in favor of marital privacy to overcome on that front.

In any case, you aren’t even trying to claim your original post is correct anymore, which was my point. You got US law completely wrong, and you didn’t even try to get it right before you posted. This is how you deal with Muslims…say whatever you like, claim it’s fact, and then try to twist the words of anyone who disagrees to salvage your claims.

I was sure before you had no training in history or Islamic theology. Now I know you aren’t a JD either.

 

[pro_universal]

YSee the last para? Not US law, eh?

No, that’s not US law. That’s New York law, and there you have 2 of 50.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Pro, pro, you’re being slippery and the Catholics can see how you squirm.

I gave you examples of THREE sets of statutes - Federal and 2 states. You’re now asking me to give you the statutes of all 50 states. That is just ridiculous, bud.

Some states like Wyoming go so far as to define child as someone aged 18 so they don’t need the 5 year rule.

You want more? It’s all on public record.

You started off not knowing the definition of ‘age of consent’. Then you claimed I made up the 5 year rule. Then you claimed Federal law is not US law. Then when I show you examples of state laws as well - you say it’s only 2 out of 50. Have you no shame?

 

[pro_universal]

Pro, pro, you’re being slippery and the Catholics can see how you squirm.

I gave you examples of THREE sets of statutes - Federal and 2 states. You’re now asking me to give you the statutes of all 50 states. That is just ridiculous, bud.

Some states like Wyoming go so far as to define child as someone aged 18 so they don’t need the 5 year rule.

You want more? It’s all on public record.

You started off not knowing the definition of ‘age of consent’. Then you claimed I made up the 5 year rule. Then you claimed Federal law is not US law. Then when I show you examples of state laws as well - you say it’s only 2 out of 50. Have you no shame?

Sputter all you want Bivar, it’s obvious what you did here. You made a blanket claim about law in the USA which isn’t true. You do not know the law here, plain and simple.

Now you’re scrambling the internet to find every state’s laws, and the best you’ll do is to find maybe the Cornell chart that shows you that your claim was ridiculously false.

Nowhere did I say Federal law is not US law. Pointing out that 2 statutes out of 50 do not constitute “US law” either is pointing out the obvious.

I don’t know why you have so much trouble grappling with the fact that you don’t really have any expertise on lots of issues. First you claimed expertise in Islam…that’s obviously not the case. Now you’re claiming to know US law such that you can compare it with Islamic law…that’s even less the case.

Sorry Rodrigo, but between calling Carl Ernst “a muslim” and completely fabricating claims about US law, you have torpedoed your credibility here.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I guess you want me to show all 50 statutes, don’t you? I will show you one more and let the Catholics decide. Americans know that every state has legislation against the sort of child abuse/pedophilia considered moral in Islam.

You are just being a fool.

Here is the statute of Minnesota where so many of your fellow Muslims live.

609.345 Criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree.

Subdivision 1.    Crime defined.  A person who engages

in sexual contact with another person is guilty of criminal
sexual conduct in the fourth degree if any of the following
circumstances exists:

(a) the complainant is under 13 years of age and the actor

is no more than 36 months older than the complainant. Neither
mistake as to the complainant’s age or consent to the act by the
complainant is a defense. In a prosecution under this clause,
the state is not required to prove that the sexual contact was
coerced;

(b) the complainant is at least 13 but less than 16 years

of age and the actor is more than 48 months older than the
complainant or in a position of authority over the complainant.
Consent by the complainant to the act is not a defense. In any
such case, it shall be an affirmative defense which must be
proved by a preponderance of the evidence that the actor
believes the complainant to be 16 years of age or older;

See the four year rule at work for those between 13-16 and even stricter for those under 13.

Yeah, right.

 

[pro_universal]

I guess you want me to show all 50 statutes, don’t you? I will show you one more and let the Catholics decide. Americans know that every state has legislation against the sort of child abuse/pedophilia considered moral in Islam.

You are just being a fool.

.

That’s true. I should’ve known you’d keep posting your tirades even after it was definitively proven that you were wrong.

I’m a fool with a law degree. Shameful, I know.

But the fact is…you’re wrong about the law here. Wrong. You do not know US law, period. Using it to compare to your shia example was a bad idea, but you didn’t know that, because you don’t know US law, nor do you really understand Islamic law.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

So you’re a fool with a law degree. We knew you were a fool already but I guess there are stupid lawyers as well.

For a lawyer you sure are ignorant of the definition of ‘age of consent’. Where did you get your legal degree for pity sake? Tehran Uni?

Your consistent use of logical fallacies sure point to your ‘legal expertise’ eh? More character assasinations - I guess that is what you do in court, too.

Being a lawyer you are sure ignorant of the US State laws on child abuse. Here’s something from Michigan you might want to refresh your memory on:

750.520b Criminal sexual conduct in the first degree; felony; consecutive terms.
Sec. 520b.

(1) A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the first degree if he or she engages in sexual penetration with another person and if any of the following circumstances exists:

(a) That other person is under 13 years of age.

(b) That other person is at least 13 but less than 16 years of age and any of the following:

b) For a violation that is committed by an individual 17 years of age or older against an individual less than 13 years of age by imprisonment for life or any term of years, but not less than 25 years.

See the 4 year rule in operation again?