Shia view on sex with pre-pubertal girls

[Ella]

The subject is not “pre pubertal girls.”

YES IT IS. Check out what this thread is titled? ** Re: Shia view on sex with pre-pubertal girls.**

Quote:
Pro, do you believe that is it moral for a 30 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent girl?

I’m not even going to justify that with an answer.

Justify what? Either you think it is moral or not. Do you think it is moral for a 30 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent girl?

 

[Cyber_Knight]

OMG!! He even deny the title of thread!!

Like it or not, all muslims would justify the child marriage including the age consent. Because Muhammad did it. A greatest man that ever walked on this planet! Surely what he did should be followed.
I need puke icon…

 

[JMM159]

So you agree with the notion that it is okay for a 53 year old man to have sex with a pre-pubescent wife?

How do you know the Prophet of Muslims was indeed 53 years old when he married to Aishah?

And how do you know Aishah was 9 years old at marriage time?

Do you believe in all the rest of Islamic sources/scriptures too besides these or just you want to believe in what you feel/see “interesting”?

 

[JMM159]

Well 16 is not 9. .

Here is something for you:

According to the most Muslim historians, the elder sister of Aisha whose name was Asma, was ten years older than Aisha and Asma died in year 73 After Hijrah-migration., at the age of 100 years.

Now guess what would be the age of Aishah at the time of her marriage?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

How do you know the Prophet of Muslims was indeed 53 years old when he married to Aishah?

And how do you know Aishah was 9 years old at marriage time?

Do you believe in all the rest of Islamic sources/scriptures too besides these or just you want to believe in what you feel/see “interesting”?

I think the Muslims themselves consider the sahih hadiths to be more authoritative and authentic than the non-sahih hadiths. That, too, will be the stance I am taking.

I see you want to play that game so let us play.

There are many hadiths of this sort and they are all consistent that she was nine years old at that event.

Narrated Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Here is something for you:

According to the most Muslim historians, the elder sister of Aisha whose name was Asma, was ten years older than Aisha and Asma died in year 73 After Hijrah-migration., at the age of 100 years.

Now guess what would be the age of Aishah at the time of her marriage?

Who are these ‘most Muslim historians?’ Please don’t tell lies. The biography of Asma bint Abu Bakr is uncertain - nobody knows for sure when she was born and when she died and her age at death. Unlike for Aisha because she was not an important person in the scheme of early Islam - other than being related to the important figures.

Here I quote Shaykh Gibril Haddad on this issue:
Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad’s assertion that she was ten years older than A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar Alam al-Nubala’ said there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here.

Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nuaym al-Asbahani that “Asma’ bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74.” None of this amounts to any proof for `A’isha’s age whatsoever.

sunnipath.com/Resources/Questions/QA00004861.aspx

Note that what is written about Asma are NOT sahih hadiths - hence if there is conflict between them and the sahih hadiths (in this case the Aisha = nine year old hadiths) Sunni Muslims hold that the sahih hadiths are true and any conflicting hadiths are not.

Note also how Shaykh Haddad said that the narrations that say Asma was 19 years older than Aisha are more reliable.

Next copy-pasted Aisha was not nine polemics please. Over to you.

 

[Montalban]

How do you know the Prophet of Muslims was indeed 53 years old when he married to Aishah?

And how do you know Aishah was 9 years old at marriage time?

Do you believe in all the rest of Islamic sources/scriptures too besides these or just you want to believe in what you feel/see “interesting”?

The Moslems themselves say this. It’s in their Hadith.

 

[Montalban]

Here is something for you:

According to the most Muslim historians, the elder sister of Aisha whose name was Asma, was ten years older than Aisha and Asma died in year 73 After Hijrah-migration., at the age of 100 years.

Now guess what would be the age of Aishah at the time of her marriage?

The hadith say she was nine. They do so explicitly.
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
“Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
“Narrated Urwa: “The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
“Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.”
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud’s Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, “The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old.” (The narrator Sulaiman said: “Or six years.”). “He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.”

At best you’re arguing that we can’t rely on the Hadith, because it’s full of contradictions

 

[Montalban]

Here is something for you:

According to the most Muslim historians, the elder sister of Aisha whose name was Asma, was ten years older than Aisha and Asma died in year 73 After Hijrah-migration., at the age of 100 years.

Now guess what would be the age of Aishah at the time of her marriage?

Further, you’ve ignored Islamic advice sites from the first page; I cited three of them.

Here’s two more for you to ignore
Second marriage possible under these conditions. i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and she has also agreed. What is your advise?
i am 45 and married to already 15 years now after the sexual desire of my woman has nearly gone i am looking to marry again. And i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and she has also agreed, my first wife told me that it could make problems if it will be a big different in age, and also some of my children are older than my second wife. What is your advise ? And is it allowed for me to have already sexual intercourse with these woman after we are married or to i have to wait till she reach at special age ?

According to the Shari’ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one’s wife even if she is a minor.

It is important for you, in your situation, to consider the age difference reservation expressed by your wife.

and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737

and
Marriage at an early age
Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?
(Name and address withheld)
A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: “My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife.” The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: “I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes.”
Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not. Moreover her father may not marry her away to someone who is of a lesser status than hers. If he does and she objects, the marriage is not valid. Generally speaking, however. a girl must be asked to express her opinion in any proposed marriage. If she has been married before, then her verbal consent should be requested. If she has not been married previously, then her consent is also to be requested, but if she keeps quiet, her silence is taken as approval.
etc…

islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

 

[JMM159]

I think the Muslims themselves consider the sahih hadiths to be more authoritative and authentic than the non-sahih hadiths. That, too, will be the stance I am taking.

I see you want to play that game so let us play.

There are many hadiths of this sort and they are all consistent that she was nine years old at that event.

Narrated Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64

I think you misunderstood the whole thing.

I didn’t ask you to qoute Hadith literature of Muslim religion.

What I am simply asking you is,

**How do you know the Prophet of Muslims was indeed 53 years old when he married to Aishah?

And how do you know Aishah was 9 years old at marriage time?

Do you believe in all the rest of Islamic sources/scriptures too besides these or just you want to believe in what you feel/see “interesting”?**

Please keep in mind that you are not a Muslim. In order to call prophet of Muslims, a dirty man, you have to have a sound proof which is acceptable and verifiable according to the standards of non-Muslims like you.

What the scriptures/sources of Muslims say is headache of Muslims and not yours. For you to blame any Muslim religious personality, you need an impartial, verifiable and independent evidence/proof.

Am I clear or you still need more clarification?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

That is ridiculous answer. We take historical records from the people who produced those historical records. If you want to know Greek history you’d certainly read Greek historians. If you want to know Roman history, you’d read Roman historians.

Here we want to know Islamic history so we go to the Islamic historical sources - in this case, the sahih hadiths.

Don’t tell me the sahih hadiths are untrue just because I’m not a Muslim. That is just plain silly.

 

[JMM159]

That is ridiculous answer. We take historical records from the people who produced those historical records. If you want to know Greek history you’d certainly read Greek historians. If you want to know Roman history, you’d read Roman historians.

Here we want to know Islamic history so we go to the Islamic historical sources - in this case, the sahih hadiths.

Don’t tell me the sahih hadiths are untrue just because I’m not a Muslim. That is just plain silly.

Do you really know what you said above is most ridiculous and baseless thing?

And this is what exactly I was expecting from you because you seem one among those who when talk have no real idea what they are talking about.

I will give you one more chance to review your own statements before I respond.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Just respond and let us see what you have to say. It is clear you have a problem with me using Islamic sources against Islam. Too bad. Your own history condemns you and your prophet. I did not make up your history and your religious literature - I merely present them as evidence.

 

[Montalban]

Just respond and let us see what you have to say. It is clear you have a problem with me using Islamic sources against Islam. Too bad. Your own history condemns you and your prophet. I did not make up your history and your religious literature - I merely present them as evidence.

I seem to be on the “Muslim ignore list” as they don’t discuss things with me since I asked a direct question of pro_universal, did he think that it was wrong.

But it’s interesting to see his appeal to you to submit, people just don’t understand Islam, and all you have to do is believe it the way he says so.

 

[JMM159]

Just respond and let us see what you have to say. It is clear you have a problem with me using Islamic sources against Islam. Too bad. Your own history condemns you and your prophet. I did not make up your history and your religious literature - I merely present them as evidence.

lol

Evidence? Where is it? Is it really an evidence in impartial and independent eyes?

You are presenting the evidence to who? To the Muslims? If yes, then, is/was that evidence hidden from the eyes of Muslims/Muslim scholars of their faith?

And who is demanding from a person like you to present the evidence to them?

Do you believe in the the rest of the “evidences” found in the Muslim sources of their religion or just the ones you are presenting here?

If the only things you presented is indeed evidences in your eyes then how do YOU know only these things are indeed evidence or this is what indeed/infact happened?

In order to label a man as ‘dirty man’ either you should have impartial verifaible independent evidence/proof or you should have faith in Muslim scriptures/sources. Which one you have?

 

[Montalban]

lol

Evidence? Where is it? Is it really an evidence in impartial and independent eyes?

You doubt your own Hadith?

 

[Montalban]

That is ridiculous answer. We take historical records from the people who produced those historical records. If you want to know Greek history you’d certainly read Greek historians. If you want to know Roman history, you’d read Roman historians.

Here we want to know Islamic history so we go to the Islamic historical sources - in this case, the sahih hadiths.

Don’t tell me the sahih hadiths are untrue just because I’m not a Muslim. That is just plain silly.

That’s the Islamic argument all over. You just have to ‘accept’ it. Even if it makes no sense. That’s true submission.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

JMM:

Evidence? Where is it? Is it really an evidence in impartial and independent eyes?

Yes - like all discussions and academic analyses, evidence is weighted by their reliability to derive the truth of the matter. It is therefore, irrelevant what the person providing the evidence believes - as the evidence speaks for itself.
JMM:

You are presenting the evidence to who? To the Muslims? If yes, then, is/was that evidence hidden from the eyes of Muslims/Muslim scholars of their faith?

I am here at the invitation of my Catholic friends to let them know about Islam.
JMM:

And who is demanding from a person like you to present the evidence to them?

My Catholic friends.
JMM:

Do you believe in the the rest of the “evidences” found in the Muslim sources of their religion or just the ones you are presenting here?

What evidence are you talking about? Be specific.
JMM:

If the only things you presented is indeed evidences in your eyes then how do YOU know only these things are indeed evidence or this is what indeed/infact happened?

Evidence is evidence - I don’t have to believe in Islam to believe in the hadiths about what Muhammad said and did.

There was a person named Muhammad who started a religion called Islam - that is a historical fact independent of whether I am a Muslim or not.

Similarly Muhammad as a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old child named Aisha - this too is according to Islamic historical records.
JMM:

In order to label a man as ‘dirty man’ either you should have impartial verifaible independent evidence/proof or you should have faith in Muslim scriptures/sources. Which one you have?

Please don’t make up the rules. I present the Islamic evidence of Muhammad’s life and then we decide if he was a dirty man or not. If you disagree that Muhammad was a dirty man - then go ahead - you’re a Muslim anyway. But we seem to have a higher standard of morality than you.

 

[JMM159]

You doubt your own Hadith?

To believe in the Kuran/Hadis or not to, is Muslims’ headache and not non-muslims.

My simple question is, for you to accuse or blame someone rightfully as ‘dirty man’ you need an evidence that is acceptable according to your own standards and for people of all faith/no faith an evidence/proof that is impartial, independent and verifiable.

Let me give you an example.

There are people out there who are called/like to be called Christians (followers of Christ) and they according to their “evidence” believe that Pope is an antiChrist. Just because these Christians believe and have “evidence” of Pope being an antiChrist, does it really makes Pope an antiChrist? If yes, then would it be Kosher for me to label Pope as an antiChrist or Devil because I see the “evidence” in Christian religious sources?

 

[JMM159]

There was a person named Muhammad who started a religion called Islam - that is a historical fact independent of whether I am a Muslim or not.

Similarly Muhammad as a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old child named Aisha - this too is according to Islamic historical records.

You still did not realise the baselessness of your argument.

How do YOU know Muhammed INFACT as a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old child Aisha? You believe in this, based on what verifiable impartial independent evidence?

And you said “this too is according to Islamic historical records”. But Islamic historical records also say Muhammed was last Prophet of God. Do you believe in this evidence of him being the last Prophet of God, too?