Shia view on sex with pre-pubertal girls

[Gordon_N]

First of all, after reading all these posts, I still have no idea whether Islam sanctions sex with 9 year old girls today. I’m guessing the answer is no. The link that the OP provided did not say anything, that I could find, about sex with 9 year olds being acceptable.

What does christian scripture teach about the mariageable age of children?

I agree with you on the link being a little bit muddy pertaining to this topic. I am looking into it a little deeper. I will keep you up on my findings…

On your question, I have to admit that I do not know. I will do a little bit of studying on that topic and let you know what I find. More important than the age, I do know that discarding the girl (woman) due to her being “damaged” is contrary to Christian teachings.

Peace,

Gordon

 

[Valke2]

Grand Ayatollah as-Sistani gave the following fatwa on the permissibility of Muslims marrying and having sex with girls below the age of puberty.

Apparently, it is permissible for a Muslim to marry and have sex with a girl below the age of puberty (i.e. non-baligh) as long as she has passed the age of nine. She is still not-haram to him after she attains puberty. But if he has damaged her sexual organs by having sex with her, he is advised to divorce her. What kindness.

1. If a person contracts Nikah with a non-baligh girl, it is haraam to have sexual intercourse before she has completed her nine years. But if he commits sexual intercourse with her, she will not be haraam for him when she becomes baligh, even if she may have suffered Ifza (which has been described in rule 2389), though as a precaution, he should divorce her.

sistani.org/html/eng/main/index.php?page=3&lang=eng&part=3

This is what Ifza means:

imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=3738
Ifza (Ifdha):
Opening. State of a woman that her urinary and menstrual tract or her menstrual passage and rectum, or all three of them have become one.

The nine year limit is in consideration to Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha as he also married and had sex with a pre-pubertal girl of the age of nine.

Please note the morality and kindness of having sex and damaging the sexual organs of a pre-pubertal girl of nine. Please also note the morality of divorcing her once her sexual organs have been damaged and casting her away like trash.

There’s nothing in Islam that says the girl was pre-pubeertal. On the contrary, my understanding is that girls in that region during Mohammed’s time reached puberty between 9 and 12 years of age.

 

[Valke2]

Blue laws that are still on the books (and seldom adhered to or utilized.) In the state of NC, you can still take your wife to the courthouse steps on Sunday at noon to beat her with a switch of which is not to exceed the diameter of your thumb. Haven’t seen that happen lately though. Point taken, however.

Peace,

Gordon

But I"m not talking about laws that are left on the books and never used.

In South Africa, there are provisions made for tribal marriages of 12 year old girls (14 year old boys).

Canada and parts of the US provide for 14 year old girls to marry, only with judicial consent.

In Brazil, if the girl is pregnant, she can marry no matter what the age.

In Arizona, no minimum age, although those under 16 need permission from the court. Same with California.

Now we can look at these laws and say the USA is disgusting. Or we can say, "the fact is that the vast majority of AMerican’s would never sanction such marriages and that in practice the average age of women who marry is 20 years or older.

 

[Valke2]

BTW, under jewish tradition at the time of Jesus, Mary could have been as young as 12 when she gave birth. (whatever happened to Joseph, btw?)

 

[Ridgerunner]

First of all, after reading all these posts, I still have no idea whether Islam sanctions sex with 9 year old girls today. I’m guessing the answer is no. The link that the OP provided did not say anything, that I could find, about sex with 9 year olds being acceptable.

Let us not guess here, when the only evidence available at this point strongly suggests that it’s acceptable. It talks about divorcing your wife if she is not yet ten, which certainly suggests approval of marriage at that age. Sistani talks about it as if it matters to know it, which suggests to me that it exists in fact. No doubt someone will come up with additional information. I await the quotation from Sistani or the Iranian Revolutionary Council where sex with nine year olds is clearly condemned. Until then, the Sistani text is the only evidence on the table.

Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has gone on record as approving of consensual sex at age 12, which is even worse than the 14-year age someone else cited. But just because this perverse jurist thinks it does not excuse Sistani or the Iranian clerics’ approval of sex at age 9. The difference in the rottenness is only one of degree.

My point, Valke, in citing the allegation of a Hezbollah-Israeli agreement to kill Israeli civilians is that, while you may feel motivated to defend Islam in here, and don’t like it when Christians object to it, sometimes objection is justified. Surely you know Islamists come in here with the most outrageous allegations that can be imagined against Christianity and Judaism; far more unfair than anything I have seen anyone say about Islam in here. Yet your only objection is to the arguments of Christians. When someone brought up this nine-year-old business, your reaction was that they should be silenced; not that more research into it be done. I have not been a participant in here as long as many; perhaps even most. But I do remember that, early on, many Christians attempted to be conciliatory toward Muslims. But it was not reciprocated. Instead, unrelenting, and very often quite disingenuous attacks on Christianity, and the assertion of the “superiority” of Islam were the answer. If that asserted “superiority” is highly questionable, then the truth needs to be told about it, lest people, not hearing the truth, believe it. You do know, don’t you, that if one goes Muslim, he can’t get out without being killed? That’s Muslim doctrine. So if someone like the OP sees something terrible in Islam, and if his citation of it might prevent someone from taking a step in ignorance, from which the only escape is execution, it seems to me the OP is performing a valuable service. Again, though, if Sistani condemned sex with nine year olds somewhere, you are free, indeed invited, to produce it.

 

[Ella]

I found a fascinating, (warning though it’s explicit) article about Iran and sexuality:
www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/iran.html

 

[estesbob]

No. Have you considered joining Christians for Tolerance?

Do you think Chrisitans or anyone else should “tolerate” sex with a 9 year old?

 

[Valke2]

Let us not guess here, when the only evidence available at this point strongly suggests that it’s acceptable.

But you are assuming the quote from that paritcular religious leader is somthing that Islam follows today.

Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has gone on record as approving of consensual sex at age 12, which is even worse than the 14-year age someone else cited.

Putting aside the context that Bader’s opinion was written, it can easily be argued that “Just because some militant imam says one thing it does not mean that Islam follows it.”

My point, Valke, in citing the allegation of a Hezbollah-Israeli agreement to kill Israeli civilians is that, while you may feel motivated to defend Islam in here, and don’t like it when Christians object to it, sometimes objection is justified.

My objection is that there seems to be a concerted effort to attack Isalm here. That is not what the point of this board is (supposed to be).

As for Mulsims attacking CHristians, I’m sure that’s true. I tend not to go on Muslim/Christian threads if they don’t seem to have anything to do with Judaism. But when I have gone on such threads, I always see Islam being attacked as if it was a religion that was concerened only with terrorism and sleeping with children.

 

[Ella]

My objection is that there seems to be a concerted effort to attack Isalm here. That is not what the point of this board is (supposed to be).

As for Mulsims attacking CHristians, I’m sure that’s true. I tend not to go on Muslim/Christian threads if they don’t seem to have anything to do with Judaism. But when I have gone on such threads, I always see Islam being attacked as if it was a religion that was concerened only with terrorism and sleeping with children.

I agree.

 

[Ridgerunner]

But you are assuming the quote from that paritcular religious leader is somthing that Islam follows today.

Putting aside the context that Bader’s opinion was written, it can easily be argued that “Just because some militant imam says one thing it does not mean that Islam follows it.”

My objection is that there seems to be a concerted effort to attack Isalm here. That is not what the point of this board is (supposed to be).

As for Mulsims attacking CHristians, I’m sure that’s true. I tend not to go on Muslim/Christian threads if they don’t seem to have anything to do with Judaism. But when I have gone on such threads, I always see Islam being attacked as if it was a religion that was concerened only with terrorism and sleeping with children.

Come on Valke. This just won’t do. Either sex with nine year old girls is approved by Shia Islam or it isn’t. The OP’s reference is to the foremost Ayatollah PRESENTLY in Iraq, not ten centuries ago. Now maybe it’s just some old rule he mentioned in passing, but if Shia Muslims don’t do that anymore, then it seems odd that he would be citing PRESENTLY what ought to be an embarrassing tenet, best forgotten. I’m still waiting for your citation of Sistani or some other Ayatollah who is of equal or greater authority, saying “Oh no, we don’t do that nowadays. It’s evil.” As soon as you do, we can make the comparisons.

Israel and the West have been attacked by Islamic groups. An Islamic state, run by clerics, has announced that it wants to “wipe Israel off the map” and is acquiring nuclear weapons, perhaps to get that done. There is nothing wrong, when a people is clearly being threatened, and particularly when the religion underlying all that is proselytizing mightily, on here as well as elsewhere, to know what that religion is all about, and in detail. And when the adherents of that religion, in huge number, engage in daily bombings against innocent people, then people have every right to say it and to explore why that is, if, for no other reason, they have a right to know what they’re up against . Now, if you can produce the statements of Muslims of stature equal to that of Ayatollahs, condemning violence and telling Muslims they risk hell for killing innocent people, do it, and then we can explore why it is that some are peaceful and some are murderous. It would be timely for you to find the truly authoritative Muslim leaders (not just some guy in Detroit who is putting a nice face on things) who are trying to stop the genocide in Darfur, Timor and southern Sudan. Post it and I’ll read it.

If you think the OP is lying, say it, and say why. But don’t come in here and say people ought to be thrown out of here for telling what, for all you seem to know, might be the truth; seems credible on its face given the source cited, and might be a very important truth to know. And if you think the posters in these threads are lying, show that they are. Don’t just lament the fact that the things some of them say are not favorable to Islam as if that, in itself, is something evil.

This reminds me of the occasion when Harry Truman was criticized for “giving the Republicans hell”. Truman remarked that no, he wasn’t giving them hell, he just told the truth on them and they thought it was hell.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ella’s source says marriage is permissible in Iranian Shia Islam at age nine for girls, but intercourse is postponed until the first period. So the age of the girls would vary between 10 and 12. Would include a nine year old here and there. This does not improve significantly on the OP’s assessment. Temporary wives for traveling?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

There’s nothing in Islam that says the girl was pre-pubeertal. On the contrary, my understanding is that girls in that region during Mohammed’s time reached puberty between 9 and 12 years of age.

Is it any different today? Do you know anything about human biology to imply that girls in Muhammad’s time achieved puberty any different from the girls of today?

If you want to talk about puberty: you should know there are basically 2 views.

The Sunnis use the term bulugh to mean puberty and that can occur at any age. It is permitted for girls to be married off at any age - even infancy if the father decides that . The Quran has a verse that permits the DIVORCE of pre-pubertal girls.

65:4 Hilali & Khan: And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Aisha was pre-pubertal when Muhammad had sex with her - and hence Sunnis do not consider non-puberty to be an impediment to sex with the girl. Some modern Muslim countries are influenced by Western laws or are just ashamed, so they mandate the minimum age of intercourse ala the West. But in strict Sunni sharia there is no minimum age for sex with a girl, and her pubertal status has nothing to do with this issue.

The Shias hold a different view - in accordance to Muhammad marrying and having sex with a nine year old girl, they have legislated the age of bulugh to be nine years. This is irrespective of whether the girl has achieved menses (hayd) or not. Thus, to shias every girl over nine has reached the age of puberty.

So you have to be careful when you talk about bulugh to Muslims as it means different things to different sects.

This site has shown that the age of menarche is no different in Medieval Middle East to that of other cultures. Even today, the average age of menarche is around 12-14.

Historical Data on Age at Menarche

Early data

Ancient Rome 12-14

Medieval Europe 12-14

Medieval Middle East 12-13

mum.org/menarage.htm

This table shows there is race and climate has no significant impact on the age of menarche:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No. Have you considered joining Christians for Tolerance?

I’ll join if you join. Fair enough? I’m told the brothers at Jews for Allah serve a mean felafel.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

We should also remember that there are marriages to 14 year olds that are sanctioned in this country (USA).

Firstly, 14 is not 9. and neither is 9 = 14.

Secondly, the 14 year minimum age of consent is between minors only.

Anyone older than 5 years older than a minor faces child abuse / pedophilia charges in the USA. No such law exists in Shia. Thus, it is wrong to equate the minimum age of consent in Western countries (who have many laws to protect minors from sexual predators) with the bulugh laws in Shia countries which were made to protect pedophiles (mostly old men like ayatollah Khomeini who had a 13 year old wife when he was 27.

This is what Khomeini wrote about sex with minors:

“A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate.”

I haven’t of course told you Catholics that according to the Shias even though a Muslim can marry a pre-pubescent girl, he may not legally penetrate her until she is nine. But he can derive sexual pleasure from her by other physical means - including foreplay, sexual caresses, and ‘thighing’. Use your imagination as to what ‘thighing’ means.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I agree with you on the link being a little bit muddy pertaining to this topic. I am looking into it a little deeper. I will keep you up on my findings…

On your question, I have to admit that I do not know. I will do a little bit of studying on that topic and let you know what I find. More important than the age, I do know that discarding the girl (woman) due to her being “damaged” is contrary to Christian teachings.

Peace,

Gordon

Yes, of course. Iran permits sex with girls past the age of nine. Nine years + 1 day is fine.

Saudi Arabia has no minimum age of consent, and neither do many Muslim countries like Bahrain, Sudan, Kuwait, Qatar etc.

The reason for this is because Muhammad had sex with a nine year old pre-pubertal girl named Aisha.

 

[inJESUS]

:banghead: that Khomeini guy ! wasn’t he the one who allowed bestiality??

 

[Montalban]

It seems to me that many of the posts here that “discuss” Islam could trigger automatic suspension under the rules. That I, as a jew, find myself continuoulsy defending Islam here, is an indication of the level of hatred, rather than discussion that is being focused on in many of these threads.

If you feel the need to defend men who have sex with children, that’s entirely up to you.

Personally, I detest the fact that Islam allows this. If that upsets you, so be it. Evidence was presented to you.

Here’s some more from Moslem advice sites
The appropriate age for marriage
Question: What is the appropriate age for men and women to marry? Some of the young ladies of today do not accept to be married to men older than them and also some of the men do not get married from anyone older than them either. We hope for a response, may Allaah reward you.
Response:… The Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) married ‘Aa.ishah when he was fifty-three years old and she was nine years old. Older age is not harmful. There is no problem if the woman is older than the man and there is no problem if the man is older than the woman.
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/marriage/interview/9991018_20.htm

Action Items for the uttaqun:
Single Muslims should have intentions to marry as soon as Islamically permissible and a suitable candidate for marriage is available.
For a female, it is permissible to marry at any time near puberty.
For a man, he is ordered to marry after puberty once he has established a means to support a family.
It is recommended (in order to avoid being jailed) to not marry until old enough according to the laws in the land they live, but it is Islamically permissible before that. In the U.S., the typical legally permissible age is 14 or 15 with a parent’s permission, but it will vary depending on where you live, so check with the local authorities first.
muttaqun.com/marriage.html

Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.

They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.

Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.

Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.
Allah Almighty knows best.
Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih
islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS

 

[Montalban]

Valke2:

But I"m not talking about laws that are left on the books and never used.

That’s what the Hadith are, still used.

Valke2:

In South Africa, there are provisions made for tribal marriages of 12 year old girls (14 year old boys).

Are you now defending Islam by what some tribes do? It’s hard to determine how you equate this as a defence. Is it a defence for murder because other people murder? Your novel approach to what is right and wrong is intriguing

Valke2:

Canada and parts of the US provide for 14 year old girls to marry, only with judicial consent.

Again this is not nine.

Valke2:

In Brazil, if the girl is pregnant, she can marry no matter what the age.

And you’d have her remain un-married?

Valke2:

In Arizona, no minimum age, although those under 16 need permission from the court. Same with California.

Now we can look at these laws and say the USA is disgusting. Or we can say, "the fact is that the vast majority of AMerican’s would never sanction such marriages and that in practice the average age of women who marry is 20 years or older.

Let’s just cut to the chase. Do you think that a girl at nine should be allowed to marry a man?

Valke2:

BTW, under jewish tradition at the time of Jesus, Mary could have been as young as 12 when she gave birth.

Do you have any evidence that Mary did this? Are you arguing that this is considered to be the norm for Christians? Please cite the Church Fathers that urge people to marry 12 year olds.

And 12, bad as it is is different from nine.

 

[Montalban]

There’s nothing in Islam that says the girl was pre-pubertal.

What if she was at puberty? What is the connection between the onset of menstruation and having adult emotional and mental capacity.

You certainly champion the Islamic argument. Where’s your proof? For the purposes of marriage; in Islam they deem a girl to be ‘adult’ three months after she first menstruates. There’s only then a physical capacity for having babies. There’s no study I’m aware of (and here’s your chance to cite some evidence) that says that at the exact same time as she has a physical capacity, she also is mentally and emotionally read.

On the contrary, my understanding is that girls in that region during Mohammed’s time reached puberty between 9 and 12 years of age.

Again, where’s your proof?

And also show please how this equates to ‘adulthood’ in every sense of the word per my first set of questions.

Next, show me why, if she’s deemed an adult (for the purposes of marriage) she’s not allowed to vote, drive, etc. at the same time? (Seems Islamic law is applied only to the extent it allows a man to legally marry a child).

 

[pro_universal]

Firstly, 14 is not 9. and neither is 9 = 14.

Secondly, the 14 year minimum age of consent is between minors only.

Anyone older than 5 years older than a minor faces child abuse / pedophilia charges in the USA. No such law exists in Shia.

No such law exists in America either. Each state has its own, and some states put no limit on marriage except that parents’ permission is required under some ages.

This is a good example of Rodrigo making up facts as he goes along. You’re speaking here as if this is a fact about American law, but it’s not. And it’s not just arguable, it’s totally incorrect. You didn’t even try to check out this claim before you posted it; it’s likely the product of a rumor you heard in a bar or some similar setting.

Thus, it is wrong to equate the minimum age of consent in Western countries (who have many laws to protect minors from sexual predators) with the bulugh laws in Shia countries which were made to protect pedophiles (mostly old men like ayatollah Khomeini who had a 13 year old wife when he was 27.

He’d be right to equate it with America. There’s no national ban on this.