Shia view on sex with pre-pubertal girls

[pro_universal]

And also show please how this equates to ‘adulthood’ in every sense of the word per my first set of questions.

Next, show me why, if she’s deemed an adult (for the purposes of marriage) she’s not allowed to vote, drive, etc. at the same time? (Seems Islamic law is applied only to the extent it allows a man to legally marry a child).

Adulthood is a thoroughly 20th century invention.

No society, Christian or otherwise, would’ve found this idea of yours sane before the world wars.

 

[Montalban]

No. Have you considered joining Christians for Tolerance?

Why do you advocate tolerance of child-abuse?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No such law exists in America either. Each state has its own, and some states put no limit on marriage except that parents’ permission is required under some ages.

What are you talking about? Doesn’t each state have it’s own minimum age of consent? You mean to tell me that if American parents decide they allow their children to marry at age six it is okay?

pro:

He’d be right to equate it with America. There’s no national ban on this.

So what? It’s the US federalism at work. That is how we do things - each state has its own laws - with the Federal Law over the top. You are clueless, pro.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

Rodrigo:

Thus, it is wrong to equate the minimum age of consent in Western countries (who have many laws to protect minors from sexual predators) with the bulugh laws in Shia countries which were made to protect pedophiles (mostly old men like ayatollah Khomeini who had a 13 year old wife when he was 27.

He’d be right to equate it with America. There’s no national ban on this.

Huh? There is no national ban on pedophilia in America?

 

[pro_universal]

What are you talking about? Doesn’t each state have it’s own minimum age of consent? You mean to tell me that if American parents decide they allow their children to marry at age six it is okay?

In some states, yes. Sex might not be allowed, but a marriage could be.

So what? It’s the US federalism at work. That is how we do things - each state has its own laws - with the Federal Law over the top. You are clueless, pro.

I’m clueless? You’re the one who explicitly claimed that the US “prohibits marriages” for a certain set of ages, and you further claimed some strange age-division law. You were not only incorrect, you were not even close.

This is a fact, there is no uniform law on the age of marriage in the US, and in some places, the parents’ consent is all that matters.

Rodrigo, admit it: You made a claim here as if it were fact, when in reality you hadn’t even bothered to check any source at all on it. This is the same pattern with you and Islam: quote from a website that bashes Islam, then claim it’s settled fact.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

In some states, yes. Sex might not be allowed, but a marriage could be.

We’re talking about sex, pro. Not marriage. The age of consent is for sex, pro, not marriage.

While the phrase age of consent (AoC) typically does not appear in legal statutes [1], when used with reference to criminal law the age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally giving informed consent to any contract or behaviour regulated by law with another person. This article refers specifically to those laws regulating sexual acts. This should not be confused with the age of majority or age of criminal responsibility or the marriageable age.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

pro:

Rodrigo:

So what? It’s the US federalism at work. That is how we do things - each state has its own laws - with the Federal Law over the top. You are clueless, pro.

I’m clueless? You’re the one who explicitly claimed that the US “prohibits marriages” for a certain set of ages, and you further claimed some strange age-division law. You were not only incorrect, you were not even close.

This is a fact, there is no uniform law on the age of marriage in the US, and in some places, the parents’ consent is all that matters.

See above pro. Age of consent is about sex, not marriage.

You’re definitely clueless, pro. You don’t even understand what is meant by age of consent.

 

[pro_universal]

See above pro. Age of consent is about sex, not marriage.

You’re definitely clueless, pro. You don’t even understand what is meant by age of consent.

Well, there’s no state that prohibits sex between married people, and to do so would likely be unconstitutional.

I most certainly understand, and I posted in response to your discussion of laws of marriage (and the separate laws of consent) in the Shia tradition. It’s very similar, except that in America, it’s doubtful that the law actually reaches a married couple’s bedroom regardless of age (whereas in Islam, there is no question that the religious law may regulate conduct between a couple).

Sorry buddy, but you are flat out wrong on this one. You didn’t even bother to look before you typed, and your “14 is minimum and must be less than five years difference” was a complete fabrication. Or are you still claiming that this is true also?

 

[Montalban]

In some states, yes. Sex might not be allowed, but a marriage could be.

This then undermines your argument. Sex is allowed in Islam with the married child. I’ve even cited advice sites that say you’re allowed this at a very early age - before she reaches puberty.

Rodrigo, admit it: You made a claim here as if it were fact, when in reality you hadn’t even bothered to check any source at all on it. This is the same pattern with you and Islam: quote from a website that bashes Islam, then claim it’s settled fact.

Try me. I’ve cited Islamic sites.

 

[pro_universal]

This then undermines your argument. Sex is allowed in Islam with the married child. I’ve even cited advice sites that say you’re allowed this at a very early age - before she reaches puberty.

Try me. I’ve cited Islamic sites.

See above. There is no such prohibition, generally, in the US.

In addition, just like with law…quoting a source doesn’t mean you’re right. Some people claim that US law proves that income tax is unconstitutional, and cite real laws to prove it…but they’re wrong, aren’t they?

Somehow, we’ve got to get past this nutty idea that simply quoting an original source proves a point. Sources get quoted badly all the time.

 

[Montalban]

Well, there’s no state that prohibits sex between married people, and to do so would likely be unconstitutional.

Let me ask you; do you think it’s okay for a grown man to have sex with a child (in the union of marriage)?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Muslim,
You have shown everyone you have been a Muslim all along because you don’t know the difference between the age of consent and the marriageable age.

pro:

Well, there’s no state that prohibits sex between married people, and to do so would likely be unconstitutional.

I most certainly understand, and I posted in response to your discussion of laws of marriage (and the separate laws of consent) in the Shia tradition. It’s very similar, except that in America, it’s doubtful that the law actually reaches a married couple’s bedroom regardless of age (whereas in Islam, there is no question that the religious law may regulate conduct between a couple).

Sorry buddy, but you are flat out wrong on this one. You didn’t even bother to look before you typed, and your “14 is minimum and must be less than five years difference” was a complete fabrication. Or are you still claiming that this is true also?

Wrong, buster. Marriage is not a mitigating factor against child abuse or pedophilia in America. Mormons and cult leaders who ‘marry’ young girls are also deemed guilty of child abuse / pedophilia.

The problem for you is that you fail to see the immorality of an old man having sex with a CHILD.

 

[Montalban]

See above. There is no such prohibition, generally, in the US.

I’m not American. I’m not bound to follow America’s example

Moslems are encouraged to follow Muhammed’s example.

If Moslems do it, it’s wrong. If Americans do it, it’s wrong.

In addition, just like with law…quoting a source doesn’t mean you’re right. Some people claim that US law proves that income tax is unconstitutional, and cite real laws to prove it…but they’re wrong, aren’t they?

A truism doesn’t get you off the hook

Somehow, we’ve got to get past this nutty idea that simply quoting an original source proves a point. Sources get quoted badly all the time.

Again a truism. Some people believe in aliens therefore people are unrelliable! That’s your ‘exceptions make rules’ argument.

The craziness about your argument is that you too make quotes and could be accused of the same thing. What you’re trying for is a self-refuting argument!

 

[pro_universal]

Muslim,
You have shown everyone you have been a Muslim all along because you don’t know the difference between the age of consent and the marriageable age.

Oh, good argument: pro is a muslim. That’s a winner.

Wrong, buster. Marriage is not a mitigating factor against child abuse or pedophilia in America. Mormons and cult leaders who ‘marry’ young girls are also deemed guilty of child abuse / pedophilia.

I’ll say this even more explicitly: No such case exists relating to a legal marriage. You are wrong. Period. You do not know the law.

The problem for you is that you fail to see the immorality of an old man having sex with a CHILD.

Ah, I see. So the US isn’t satanic for having laws that are similar to the shia laws of age-of-consent and age-of-marriage, but the Muslims are?

Right. You fabricated a claim about US law, in order to defame Islam. This is proof that you simply do not care about facts.

Answer the question: Where did you get the “14 is minimum etc etc” business from?

 

[Valke2]

What are you talking about? Doesn’t each state have it’s own minimum age of consent? You mean to tell me that if American parents decide they allow their children to marry at age six it is okay?

So what? It’s the US federalism at work. That is how we do things - each state has its own laws - with the Federal Law over the top. You are clueless, pro.

I thought I posted this earlier. A few states have no minimum age for marriage, but all states require a court order for any marriage that involves a child under the age of 16. And from 16 to 18, all states require parental permission and/or a court order. I don’t know under what circumstances teh court would issue such an order, but I would guess that the circumstances must be extreme, as it hardly ever happens.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

So you don’t know about the ‘five year difference’ rule?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

The APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its “Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia”:[25]

Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

 

[pro_universal]

So you don’t know about the ‘five year difference’ rule?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

The APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its “Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia”:[25]

Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Okay, I didn’t think I’d ever have to say it:

The APA’s DSM-IV is not part of US law.

Wow, it feels strange having to point that out…you said this was the law in America? Where on earth did you get that?

 

[Montalban]

I thought I posted this earlier. A few states have no minimum age for marriage, but all states require a court order for any marriage that involves a child under the age of 16. And from 16 to 18, all states require parental permission and/or a court order. I don’t know under what circumstances teh court would issue such an order, but I would guess that the circumstances must be extreme, as it hardly ever happens.

And how would a wrong in America make the Islamic wrong right?

 

[pro_universal]

And how would a wrong in America make the Islamic wrong right?

It shows that there’s nothing special about the Islamic rules. Hence, the argument that this is an example of some insidious Islamic evil is wrong.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I thought I posted this earlier. A few states have no minimum age for marriage, but all states require a court order for any marriage that involves a child under the age of 16. And from 16 to 18, all states require parental permission and/or a court order. I don’t know under what circumstances teh court would issue such an order, but I would guess that the circumstances must be extreme, as it hardly ever happens.

That’s - so if the minimum age of marriage is not explicitly stated - there is a legal restrictions on marriages below the age of 16. At least there’re legal restrictions on old men having sex with young girls, eh?

But we’re not really talking about the marriageable age but the age of (sexual) consent and the morality of pedophilia or otherwise.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay, I didn’t think I’d ever have to say it:

The APA’s DSM-IV is not part of US law.

Wow, it feels strange having to point that out…you said this was the law in America? Where on earth did you get that?

But the courts take that into account.

In this publication a child molester is simply a significantly older individual who engages in illegal sexual activity with children.
How much older is “significantly older”? Clearly, in many cases, the dynamics of the case may be more important than simply the chronological age of the individuals. There are, however, some working guidelines. The rule of thumb that psychiatrists and others use is that there must be an age difference of five
years.{Reference: Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis. For
Law-Enforcement Officers Investigating the Sexual Exploitation
of Children by Acquaintance Molesters - US Department of Justice}