Shocked by Song Choice at Mass

[BradW]

I read a tagline in a previous poster’s message that said " Joy is not the absence of Sorrow, but the Presence of God." I like that, and it’s fitting here.

… His sacrifice is our salvation. Is that not the ultimate cause for joy? Should not the music with which we choose to celebrate His passion reflect the joy that we ought to each feel at this superlative expression of the creator’s love for us?

In case this is where you’re going, it sounds like it but I’m not sure…

Just as Joy =/= absence of Sorrow,
Joy =/= presence of fast tempo, “happy-clappy” music.
Or Joy =/= written after 1990.
Or Joy =/= guitars and drums.

It can be those things, but is not exclusively those things.

The Joy of Advent is different from the Joy of Christmas.
The Joy of Lent is different from the Joy of Easter.

You get the idea?

Joy can be expressed in many musical styles, even slow tempo and centuries-old, just as the Presence of God can be experienced in many ways.

 

[Contarini]

I think that celebration can lend itself to varied expressions, including the loud and raucous, as well as the quiet and contemplative.

Absolutely. Frankly, I’d be happier with what I see of Catholic liturgy if I saw much of either the “loud and raucous” or the “quiet and contemplative.” The impression I get a lot of the time is that the people in the pews want to be quiet and contemplative but aren’t allowed to because they (and particularly the cantors who lead them) think that Vatican II abolished quiet contemplation. I totally understand where the Traditionalists are coming from in that context. That’s why I reacted so negatively to the OP–I think it would be great to see a Catholic congregation clapping and joining in enthusiastically to a good contemporary praise song, instead of just mumbling along to a song that sounds like a rather stilted attempt to whip people’s enthusiasm up anyway. I can understand someone preferring a quieter style–I’m no fan of praise songs myself on the whole–but “shocked”?

Edwin

 

[BradW]

GREAT POST.

Notice a trend here? Those of us who work full time in administering the liturgy seem to agree that communion is not a time for adoration. Maybe we know something you don’t!

Well, maybe. I’m typically a sing-out-loud-enthusiastically singer, but during Communion, my mind is mostly on Other Things – not adoration per se, but contemplation – well, maybe adoration yes, as I see person after person receive Our Lord, and yes I do reflect on our oneness as a body – so I don’t sing a great deal!

If I know the song by heart, I’ll sing more than if I have to get the hymnal out. When & how much will also depend on where I’m sitting (i.e., how much time I have before it’s my turn).

I do appreciate the music, and thank you liturgists (especially the one I happen to sleep with ) for all your work in the Mass, but for the Communion Hymn I would not miss it if it needed to be omitted.

 

[YADA]

I have read the posts…Interesting

While the OP may not want to join the choir due to their overwhelming class schedule …they [most probably could] could join the musicians in the music selection. In my parish they are already selecting the music for the Advent Christmas season…the music choices are made by the choir/musicians, the Director of Music/Liturgy, and any interested parishioner…Now I earned a master’s in pastoral ministry, operated a business with employees, volunteered each week at the parish [RCIA Team, YouthGroup/ Confirmation, EMHC, and Lector] and had a home that included 4 generations, so I believe that a person can find time to volunteer in areas that are of concern to them [as in **SHOCKED ]… even if it is just the occassional meetings to select the music…

Our Director of Music, Priest adn Pastoral Associate receives comments on the music all the time. They will tell you that the same music can receive all of the follwing: “Love the music at Mass today, we should sing songs like this more often”…“I hated the music today, it was just awful” …“The music was too slow today”…“The music was too fast”…“The cantor sang too high [or too low’]” …“We need to sing more traditional songs [more contemporary songs]”

Personally, I like …but then this is not about my personal preferences…

I am reminded of King David…He danced [naked] before the Lord. David played the Lute, played the Harp… David laughed and David cried…David “celebrated” the Lord…

King David was always himself before God: a King, a Sinner, a Warrior, a man…

But I don’t think that David would be welcome at Mass…I think he would get the “Stare that shows displeasure …” at his mass behavior…

I mean couldn’t the man put on some clothes!!!

Oh yah, when I was earning my masters there were many shows on TV: Sex in the City …never saw it oncce…Friends…never wathed it…CSI…never heard of it until I graduated…24…you get the picture - never saw it…TV was not an option…

 

[verdigirl]

25th Sunday in Ordinary Time:
You have ordered that your commandments be kept diligently; O that my ways may be guided towards the keeping of your statutes.

from “Speak, Lord” (Schoenbachler 1979)
Refrain: Speak, Lord, I love to listen to your voice. See, Lord, here I am.

vs. 3:
Your word is like a lamp burning so bright; showing the path ahead, giving me sight; in darkness I am lost: your word gives light; speak to me, live in me, saving Word.

26th Sunday
Be mindful of your word to your servant, O Lord, in which you caused me to hope; this has been my comfort in my affliction.

from “Stand by Me” (Kendzia 2001)
When the storms of life are raging, Lord, stand by me. When the current pulls me under, Lord, stand by me. When the rising waters toss me like a ship upon the sea, You who rule the wind and water, Lord, stand by me.

Stand by me, stand by me. Lift me up from the restless sea. When I am lost, when love can’t be found, when no one cares, Lord, stand by me.

27th Sunday
My soul aspires after your salvation; I hope in your word; when will you judge those who persecute me? The wicked are persecuting me; come to my assistance, O Lord my God.

from “God Will Wipe Away Every Tear” (Ridge 1998)
Refrain: God will wipe away ev’ry tear; God will wipe away ev’ry tear; Ev’ry sorrow will end, ev’ry broken heart be healed and God will wipe away ev’ry tear.

vs. 2:
All is richness at that feast, finest food and finest wine. Who will ever hunger, every thirst again? Not one!

vs. 3:
We will honor you, O Lord: you, the refuge of the poor, you, the shelter of the needy who cry out to you.

28th Sunday
Remove from me all scorn and contempt, for I have kept your commandments; for your law is the object of my meditations.

from "Here I am’ (Booth, 1996)

Here I am, standing right beside you. Here I am, do not be afraid. Here I am, waiting like a lover. I am here, here I am.

vs. 1:
Do not fear when the tempter calls you. Do not fear even though you fall. Do not fear, I have conquered evil. Do not fear, never be afraid.

As you can see, none of these texts accords at all well with what GIRM 86 says.

I don’t know…maybe not word for word, but the concepts are there, I feel. Also, it’s not unheard of to use a song whose text come from the Psalm in question during Communion.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What is shocking about blessing God’s name? For that matter, what is shocking about worshiping God with the body?

This is an excellent example of the way things that first drew me to Catholicism turn out to be not only atypical of most Catholic parishes but to be rejected by the more self-consciously traditional Catholics when they do occur. Silly old me–I used to think that individualistic, over-intellectualized religion was a Protestant problem!

Edwin

If the Net is any guide -*** if*** - US Catholicism does seem to suffer from some of the typically Protestant Fundamentalist maladies: especially “over-intellectualized religion”. Maybe this is one of the side-effects of gaining converts from Protestant Fundamentalist Christianity. Other tendencies of the same kind are “Catholic congregationalism” & (of all things !) anti-clericalism, & the clericalisation of the laity; the last two of these are also features of Protestant Fundamentalism.​

Sociologically, it’s fascinating to see these tendencies at work - theologically, it’s depressing; as over-intellectualisation leaves little place for the primarily mysterious nature of the Church which Lumen Gentium emphasises so well. If the Church is not a mystery first & foremost, it becomes just another pressure group in society; it loses its savour. The Orthodox are always complaining about Western “rationalism” - & there is something in what they say.

It’s ironical that this secularisation of the Church should be a “conservative” weakness, when it is more often seen as a typically “liberal” failing - “liberalism” being used in the bad modern sense: “libertinism” might be a more accurate term. Again, this sort of irony is a feature of Protestant Fundamentalism as well. “Conservatives” & “liberals”, rather than being opposed, are at different ends of a single spectrum.

 

[Wolseley]

The impression I get a lot of the time is that the people in the pews want to be quiet and contemplative but aren’t allowed to because they (and particularly the cantors who lead them) think that Vatican II abolished quiet contemplation.

Your are very perceptive, and quite correct, Edwin. I have good, good friends, cradle Catholics, who finally just despaired one Sunday, walked out of a rock Mass ("We couldn’t even hear ourselves think," as the husband told me later), and found themselves an SSPX chapel…and never came back. That was, ten, twelve years ago. They rejoiced at Summorum Pontificum, but are quite cynical that anything will change in the Church at large.

I have to wonder if Christ desired that the “modernization” of the Church would have, as one of its accomplishments, driving people away from it in droves.

I think it would be great to see a Catholic congregation clapping and joining in enthusiastically to a good contemporary praise song, instead of just mumbling along to a song that sounds like a rather stilted attempt to whip people’s enthusiasm up anyway.

(sigh)

 

[Cat]

Your are very perceptive, and quite correct, Edwin. I have good, good friends, cradle Catholics, who finally just despaired one Sunday, walked out of a rock Mass ("We couldn’t even hear ourselves think," as the husband told me later), and found themselves an SSPX chapel…and never came back. That was, ten, twelve years ago. They rejoiced at Summorum Pontificum, but are quite cynical that anything will change in the Church at large.

I have to wonder if Christ desired that the “modernization” of the Church would have, as one of its accomplishments, driving people away from it in droves.

(sigh)

But at any given point in history, the Mass was “modern.” For example, when chant, polyphonic music, and the organ came along, they were modern! And people didn’t get driven away in droves.

I think some of you seriously underestimate how much the “contemporary music” that you so despise truly does draw Protestants into the Catholic Church! It really, truly does! Honest! If you knew without a doubt that the contemporary music was responsible for attracting Protestants “home” to the Catholic Church and encouraging them to leave their “protest” and join the True Church of Jesus Christ, would you still ask for its elimination? Isn’t a soul worth it? I would listen to continous loud rap music (the kind that jars cars) if I knew that souls were being brought into the Church.

And please don’t get the wrong idea. I’m NOT saying that all classical and traditional music should be stored in a vault somewhere. I think that Catholics should strive to keep their traditional hymnody and music in the Mass. But I think that contemporary music can be used in Mass, too.

 

[VociMike]

But at any **I think some of you seriously underestimate how much the “contemporary music” that you so despise truly does draw Protestants into the Catholic Church! It really, truly does! **
If this is true then it can only be because the Catholics do “contemporary music” better than the Protestants. But nobody, absolutely nobody, believes that to be the case. Nobody believes the typical Catholic church can compete in the field of “contemporary music” with the typical Protestant mega-church or semi-mega-church. Protestants who come into the Catholic Church because of the “contemporary music” will get, at best, less well-performed examples of what they already had available in their Protestant church; if not in their own church, then certainly in another church nearby.

No, what you say just doesn’t fit the musical realities found in the two groups.

 

[Wolseley]

If you knew without a doubt that the contemporary music was responsible for attracting Protestants “home” to the Catholic Church and encouraging them to leave their “protest” and join the True Church of Jesus Christ, would you still ask for its elimination? Isn’t a soul worth it?

So how does the balance sheet break down? Pull in X many Protestants and lose X many Catholics. Whose souls are worth more?

At least Protestants, while not possessing the fullness of truth, are nevertheless saved…but what of the Catholics driven away from the Church? Are we callous enough to say, “Well, too bad, poor, lost souls. We just have to chalk it up to their not being able to adjust. Too bad for them.”? Are they less precious or important than the Protestants being brought into the Church?

 

[Contarini]

B
I think some of you seriously underestimate how much the “contemporary music” that you so despise truly does draw Protestants into the Catholic Church! It really, truly does! Honest!

Well, this is the first I’ve heard of it, frankly. But then I haven’t heard much evangelical-style contemporary music in Catholic churches. What I have heard is endless repetitions of the same half a dozen songs, about four of them by Marty Haugen! I have never heard of anyone being drawn to the Catholic Church by this music, though it is possible to learn to like it (I actually don’t mind Marty Haugen in moderate doses–it’s the fact that Catholics rarely sing anything else that I find so annoying).

Most of the converts or potential converts I know (and I’ve known a lot) found the music prevalent in Catholic churches to be a huge turn-off. But then, most of the Protestants I know who are interested in Catholicism are academics who care deeply about tradition. Those of us who come from rich hymn-singing traditions, and in the case of Anglicans (and Lutherans) also traditions of classical choral music, find it astounding that Catholics have largely junked their own tradition without taking much advantage of the richness of Protestant musical traditions. Many evangelical Protestants consider Catholicism as an alternative in part because of the shallowness and superficiality of contemporary evangelical worship, particularly the music. Such Protestants may be happy to be part of a tradition where congregational singing doesn’t really matter–the objectivity of the Mass may make up for it. But the music in Catholic churches isn’t going to be a draw, and making Catholic churches more like contemporary evangelical churches in this respect wouldn’t help much–it would definitely drive some people away.

That is my experience. Yours is clearly different, and I respect that.

For the record, my own ideal mix of church music would be something like this:

40% traditional hymns (primarily Lutheran chorale tunes, 18th-century evangelical hymns such as those of Charles Wesley, translations of medieval hymns by John Mason Neale and others, and traditional Gospel hymns, including spirituals)
30% Gregorian chant (since we’re talking about Western Christians)
20% polyphony and other forms of classical sacred music
10% all forms of contemporary music

Edwin

 

[kage_ar]

My very favorite song is is “Our God is an Awesome God”

youtube Michael W Smith

Yes, I’ve heard this at more than one Catholic Mass. Look at those people praise God. It’s beautiful!!!

Sorry, may Rich Mullins rest in peace - but, the words “Puttin’ On the Ritz” have NO PLACE in a song during Mass. Fun song other times and places, but, not in Mass.

 

[Cat]

I agree that most Catholic music can’t begin to compete with Protestant music.

I shouldn’t have used the words “draw in.”

What happens is that if the Protestant, for some reason, is sitting in the Mass, he/she is very nervous about the situation. He/she wonders exactly what’s going to happen and how weird it’s going to be.

Then the piano starts playing a Haugen hymn, and the Protestant sits up and says, “Wow! That’s beautiful! That doesn’t sound weird at all! It’s rather melodic.”

(For those of you who don’t think Haugen is melodic, you haven’t sat through a Protestant praise and worship service lately! Although there are some beautiful melodies in some of the P and W songs, many of the songs have very unconnected melodies.)

And the Protestant sits back and relaxes just a little, because the music has made him/her feel “at home.”

I agree, not all Protestants are like this. I can’t begin to speak for all Protestants! I know that many are leaving Protestant churches disgusted over the “happy clappy music.” But they aren’t going to Catholic churches, they’re going to the large mainline Protestant churches who maintain chamber orchestras and the organist with the Master’s Degree in Music plays Bach every week–good Bach, not the stumbling-around Bach that I play because I’m not a professional musician and don’t have time to practice enough to play good Bach.

To me, Haugen and other Catholic contemporary music is like having a mint placed on your pillow and fresh flowers on the nightstand when you are staying overnight with someone. It makes you feel welcome and at ease.

 

[Cat]

So how does the balance sheet break down? Pull in X many Protestants and lose X many Catholics. Whose souls are worth more?

At least Protestants, while not possessing the fullness of truth, are nevertheless saved…but what of the Catholics driven away from the Church? Are we callous enough to say, “Well, too bad, poor, lost souls. We just have to chalk it up to their not being able to adjust. Too bad for them.”? Are they less precious or important than the Protestants being brought into the Church?

I frankly can’t believe that true Catholics wouold be willing to give up Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist–for the sake of music that they don’t like. That’s so sad.

I would sit through ANY music to receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament! I would put up with any Mass type, even a Mass with clowns dancing liturgically!–to actually receive my Lord, His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

 

[VociMike]

I agree that most Catholic music can’t begin to compete with Protestant music.

I shouldn’t have used the words “draw in.”

What happens is that if the Protestant, for some reason, is sitting in the Mass, he/she is very nervous about the situation. He/she wonders exactly what’s going to happen and how weird it’s going to be.

Then the piano starts playing a Haugen hymn, and the Protestant sits up and says, “Wow! That’s beautiful! That doesn’t sound weird at all! It’s rather melodic.”

(For those of you who don’t think Haugen is melodic, you haven’t sat through a Protestant praise and worship service lately! Although there are some beautiful melodies in some of the P and W songs, many of the songs have very unconnected melodies.)

And the Protestant sits back and relaxes just a little, because the music has made him/her feel “at home.”

I agree, not all Protestants are like this. I can’t begin to speak for all Protestants! I know that many are leaving Protestant churches disgusted over the “happy clappy music.” But they aren’t going to Catholic churches, they’re going to the large mainline Protestant churches who maintain chamber orchestras and the organist with the Master’s Degree in Music plays Bach every week–good Bach, not the stumbling-around Bach that I play because I’m not a professional musician and don’t have time to practice enough to play good Bach.

To me, Haugen and other Catholic contemporary music is like having a mint placed on your pillow and fresh flowers on the nightstand when you are staying overnight with someone. It makes you feel welcome and at ease.

OK, that’s fair enough. It’s even more or less what I thought you might be trying to say in your other post, but I wasn’t going to assume.

 

[Cathryn]

"Originally Posted by Roslyn
My very favorite song is is “Our God is an Awesome God”

When I hear this song, all I can think of is the old song with the lyrics “Our house is a very, very, very fine house, with two cats in the yard, life used to be so hard, etc.” Then I pray to God to forgive me for thinking this thought. Besides, the tune, I think it’s the word “awesome” that is so overused today, referring to very trivial things___ awesome car, awesome movie, awesome hamburger etc.

I love John Michael Talbot and many of the “traditional hymns”. “One Bread, One Body” is right on for me. Mostly I would love a little silence. When Jesus Christ is under my roof I like to say a little prayer, but the music makes it difficult to concentrate on the words I like to say to Him.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I don’t disagree with the text (as I stated before, it’s one of my favs), but like you said- it is the raucous nature of the song and the timing.

We sing this song in my church and it never sounds raucous–perhaps it’s the arrangement that was used.

 

[quiet52]

Allelujah!
Praise God in his holy sanctuary;
give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
Give praise for his mighty deeds,
praise him for his great majesty.
Give praise with blasts upon the horn,
prise him with harp and lyre.
Give praise with tambourines and dance,
praise him with flutes and strings.
Give praise with crashing cymbals,
praise him with sounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath
give praise to the Lord!
Hallelujah!

(Psalm 150)

When I receive Jesus during the celebration of the Eucharist, I offer Him my thanks and praise – sometimes with a somber solemnity, sometimes with a joy I can hardly contain within myself, and usually with an effort to remember what a privilege this is, to receive Him in communion with Him and with my brothers and sisters, who support me in my faith.

 

[Angels_Watchin]

GREAT POST.

Notice a trend here? Those of us who work full time in administering the liturgy seem to agree that communion is not a time for adoration. Maybe we know something you don’t!

or maybe you’re just wrong.
The music during the Mass - ALL the music during the Mass- is supposed to be SACRED - not "fun’ or “happy” but sacred.
And Gregorian Chant is the music of the Church and the Mass. Read thd documents of the Church 0- the enclclicals about the music of the Mass.

You can sing and dance afterwards - communion is the time when you… you - all by yourself… must prepare yourself (your (belonging to you) self( your personal being)) to receive INTO YOUR PERSONAL BEING, the PERSONAL BEING of Jesus Christ. It is the most personal thing you do in the Mass.

You don’t get to prepare your neighbor. He should be busy preparing himself.

 

[Cat]

or maybe you’re just wrong.
The music during the Mass - ALL the music during the Mass- is supposed to be SACRED - not "fun’ or “happy” but sacred.
And Gregorian Chant is the music of the Church and the Mass. Read thd documents of the Church 0- the enclclicals about the music of the Mass.

You can sing and dance afterwards - communion is the time when you… you - all by yourself… must prepare yourself (your (belonging to you) self( your personal being)) to receive INTO YOUR PERSONAL BEING, the PERSONAL BEING of Jesus Christ. It is the most personal thing you do in the Mass.

You don’t get to prepare your neighbor. He should be busy preparing himself.

Some people prepare themselves to receive Our Lord by singing and dancing. There is no irreverence or lack of sacredness here. As you say, it is a personal preparation, and it will be different for everyone.