Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

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Ginger2 said:
ralphinal,

Why don’t you guys just read the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The immediate cause was bound up with the odious greed for money displayed by the Roman Curia, …
Added to this, abuses occurred during the preaching of the Indulgence. The money contributions, a mere accessory, were frequently the chief object, and the “Indulgences for the Dead” became a vehicle of inadmissible teachings. **That Leo X, in the most serious of all the crises which threatened the Church, should fail to prove the proper guide for her, **…
**Vigorous measures of reform might have proved an efficacious antidote, but the pope was deeply entangled in political affairs **and allowed the imperial election to overshadow the revolt of Luther; moreover, he gave himself up unrestrainedly to his pleasures and failed to grasp fully the duties of his high office.…

**The only possible verdict on the pontificate of Leo X is that it was unfortunate for the Church. **Sigismondo Tizio, whose devotion to the Holy See is undoubted, writes truthfully: “In the general opinion it was injurious to the Church that her Head should delight in plays, music, the chase and nonsense, instead of paying serious attention to the needs of his flock and mourning over theirmisfortunes”. Von Reumont says pertinently—“Leo X is in great measure to blame for the fact that faith in the integrity and merit of the papacy, in its moral and regenerating powers, and even in its good intentions, should have sunk so low that men could declare extinct the old true spirit of the Church.”

Ginger
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I have read it. Lots of times. And other works about it, too. What you seem to be missing is the fact that words have meanings. We must see what the words mean. However, the absence of some words have meanings, too. We do not see any statement that the Pope taught that you could buy your way to heaven. We do not see a lot of things that you want it to say.

He was a bad steward of the Church, there is no doubt. There is more than a reasonable doubt that this article says that he did what you claim he did
 
Three reasons to come home to the Catholic Church:
  1. The Eucharist
  2. The Eucharist
  3. The Eucharist
The Catholic Church needs passionate, Christ loving Protestants to come home. Scott Hahn has done more for the Church than many cradle Catholics.
 
And a Lutheran convert.

Based on the passion and knowledge of some yet-to-be Catholics here I’d say there could be future priests in our midst.
 
Agreed. I’ve seen many, many beautiful gifts being brought in to the Catholic Church by Protestants that have strengthened my faith tremendously. It’s a movement of the Holy Spirit, I believe. Scott Hahn’s books “The Lamb’s Supper” on the Mass and “Lord Have Mercy” on the sacrament of Penance are re-reads of mine. “Lord Have Mercy” got my back to Confession after many years away where now I try to get there weekly.
 
Ginger2 said:
lol You’ve got to be kidding!!!

Are you suggesting it is OK to sin if the sin is a result of problems stemming from being overly generous! :eek:

Our good deeds do not make our wrongs right. The end does not justify the means.
The pope did wrong. Having an empty treasury does not make it right.

Ginger
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No of course not, I’m not saying that at all, back on post 377 I said this:
In the year 2000, our good John Paul II asked us all to pray for all the sins and failures of the past, he did acknowledge all the failings and trespasses and hopefully things, in the future, will never happen like this again.

I don’t think we’re going to get much further along at all if we all don’t start acknowledging that we all made mistakes in the past, Luther included. Afterall, if he had reformed from the inside he would be a saint now, but as it was, he’s considered a heretic. So, lets try to get it right from now on and go forward, okay?

How about if all you Lutherans just come home now? Afterall, Jesus is waiting for you with open arms.:hug3:

HE wants us all to be ONE.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
Shocking things everyone should know about people:
  1. They do bad things.
  2. Those of their church/tribe/family/etc. try to justify their bad things.
  3. Those outside their church/tribe/family/etc. condemn their bad things.
  4. Some members of their church/tribe/family/etc. find they can feel better about themselves if they condemn their bad things.
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Don’t forget the really shocking thing - L. is the enemy of…Superman !​

 
bobregan said:
Three reasons to come home to the Catholic Church:
  1. The Eucharist
  2. The Eucharist
  3. The Eucharist
The Catholic Church needs passionate, Christ loving Protestants to come home. Scott Hahn has done more for the Church than many cradle Catholics.
Click to expand...
Scott Hahn is an idiot. He stank as a Presbyterian anyway … you guys can keep him 😃
 
the rumblings of the reformation began as early as Wycliffe (even earlier quite frankly). Martin Luther obviously lit the fuse; but the powder keg was already there.
Rethinking Tradition. N.T. Wright: Morehouse. Harrisburg:
When we step off such firm biblical ground, no [41] matter what later traditions may suggest, we are always taking a risk. Explicit invocation of saints may in fact be — I do not say always is, but may be — a step towards that semi-paganism of which the Reformers were rightly afraid. The world of late Roman antiquity found it difficult to rid its collective imagination of the many-layered panoply of gods and lords, of demi-gods and heroes, that had been collecting in the culture for well over a thousand years. The second-century church began, quite understandably, to venerate the martyrs as special witnesses to the victory of Christ over death.
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Orangeman, you sound familiar…you wouldn’t happen to be an Irishman living in Tennessee?:D:irish1:
 
Contarini said:
ICA04 is wrong. The Council of Trent wisely did not name names. It is always possible to claim that none of the anathemas actually apply to real life Protestants (possible in principle, I mean–I’m not claiming that such an argument would work).

Edwin
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Oh come, do you think that we are so stupid as to believe that what was declared at Trent wasn’t directly put on Luther’s head? Give me a break, his very most solid of beliefs were declared upon those who believed them to be anathema. Please.
 
orange_man said:
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself buddy? All I can say is I don’t see many people who have any clue of what it means to be Christian on this board … just a sad bunch of zealots who wouldn’t recognize LOVE if it jumped up and smacked you in the face?

Scott Hahn is an idiot. He stank as a Presbyterian anyway … you guys can keep him 😃
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I just felt like juxtasposing these two comments made by orange_man, I thought it was funny.
 
ICA04 said:
Yeah, ok. I can repent and so can you. That’s not the point at all.
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What part of Peter suffered a cruel death for his love of Jesus (having been crucified upside down), is it that you don’t understand? And this is a rhetorical question.
 
ICA04 said:
Oh come, do you think that we are so stupid as to believe that what was declared at Trent wasn’t directly put on Luther’s head? Give me a break, his very most solid of beliefs were declared upon those who believed them to be anathema. Please.
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Catholics don’t have any unity on Luther. *Exsurge Domine *said that the Pope could, “without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation…” *Decet Romanum Pontificem *spoke of Luther’s “depraved and damnable purpose.” It called for any of the faithful who were sympathetic to the Lutherans to shun them, so that they “may escape divine vengeance and any degree of participation in their damnation.” It further declared concerning Luther and his followers: “…these and the other sentences, censures and punishments… we decree to have fallen on all these men to their damnation.”

However, the great German Catholic historian from the Universities of Breslau and Bonn, Hubert Jedin held that Catholicism never condemned Luther by name at Trent, and that no official judgment on Luther exists by which a loyal Catholic is bound.

I leave it to better minds than mine to determine the navigation through such official statements.
 
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