Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

[SemperReformada]

I don’t know of any Catholics who are “quick” to point out other people’s semitism and ignore the anti-semites in the Catholic Church. .

There seem to be quite a few here at CAF that seemingly turn a blind eye to all the warts and scars of the RCC.

The point of the OP, I think, isn’t to point out one Lutheran who is anti-semitic. The point is that the founder of that religion was an anti-semite. There is a world of difference.

What is the difference?

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, it doesn’t seem to matter to Catholics that their popes, the supposed vicars of Christ, have been murderers, anti-semites, adulterers, etc. but for some reason it has great bearing on Protestantism that Luther was an anti-semite.

I am not accusing you of having a double standard but it sure does appear that many Catholics here on the forum try to hard to prove the Cathlic church as the church that is not only infallible but always right.

 

[East_Anglican]

Truth…

"The Church, instituted by the Lord and confirmed by the Apostles, is one for all men;
but the frantic folly of the diverse impious acts sects has cut them off from her. It cannot
be denied that this tearing asunder of the faith has arisen from the defect of poor intelligence,
which twists what is read to conform to its opinion, instead of adjusting its opinion to the
meaning of what is read. However, while individual parties fight among themselves, the
Church stands revealed not only by her own doctrines, but by those also of her adversaries.
And although they are all arranged against her, she confutes the most wicked error which
they all share, by the very fact that she is alone and One.

All the heretics, therefore, come against the Church; but while all the heretics can conquer
each other, they can win nothing for themselves. For their victory is the triumph of the
Church over all of them. One heresy struggles against that teaching of another, which the
faith of the Church has already condemned in the other heresy, - for there is nothing which
the heretics hold in common, ’ and the result is that they affirm our faith while fighting among themselves."
Saint Hilary of Poitiers… The Trinity, 7:4, 356 A.D… Jurgens 865

---

---

“Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new;
for it has already gone before in the ages that were before us.” Ecclesiastes 1:10

---

---

The Jews tried to destroy it and they in turn were almost totally destroyed in 70 AD.
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

The Romans tried to destroy it, but they in turn were destroyed and their entire empire
collapsed in 471.
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

The Moslems tried to destroy it in the middle ages, and failed.
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

The Protestants tried to destroy it in the reformation and failed, and look what happened
to them. The Church of Protestantism, which Luther founded, was from the very beginning
cracked and splintered. Look at Protestantism today, over 36,400 splinters, with more
cropping up every day.
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

Hitler tried to destroy it and failed. Where is he and his 1000 year Reich now?
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

Communism tried to destroy it and failed, and where is communism today?
The Catholic Church is still here.

---

Why do you think the Catholic Church has endured all these attacks for almost two millennia?
It is because it was founded by Jesus Christ and is guarded from within and from without
by Him and the Holy Spirit, that is why. Christ guaranteed the perpetuality of His ONLY Church.
Isa 59:21, Matt 16:18, Matt 28:20, John 14:16-17, Eph 5:23, 1Tim 4:16

---

So, if all of the above much more formidable foes tried and failed to destroy the Catholic Church, what makes you think you can succeed?
Remember, if you fight against GOD’s Church, you fight against GOD Himself…
“If GOD is for us, who is against us?”
Romans 8:31
home.inreach.com/bstanley/pillar.htm

The Eastern Orthodox Church is still here too. The Coptic Church is still here too.

The comunists tried harder to destroy the Orthodox Church than The RC Church but failed.

The majority of martyrs during the 20th century were Eastern Orthodox with protestants coming second.

Your logic doesn’t work.

 

[JonNC]

Truth…

The Protestants tried to destroy it in the reformation and failed, and look what happened
to them. The Church of Protestantism, which Luther founded, was from the very beginning
cracked and splintered. Look at Protestantism today, over 36,400 splinters, with more
cropping up every day.
The Catholic Church is still here.

This is such a distortion of history. Find me the documents of “The Church of Protestantism”. There has never been such a thing. And to state that Luther was trying to destroy the Church? Please… Read the Augsburg Confession. The reason it was called a “reformation” was to reform the Church, not destroy it. Think what you want about Luther, but please be historically honest about what he wanted to do.

Jon

 

[kalt]

There seem to be quite a few here at CAF that seemingly turn a blind eye to all the warts and scars of the RCC.

What is the difference?

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, it doesn’t seem to matter to Catholics that their popes, the supposed vicars of Christ, have been murderers, anti-semites, adulterers, etc. but for some reason it has great bearing on Protestantism that Luther was an anti-semite.

I am not accusing you of having a double standard but it sure does appear that many Catholics here on the forum try to hard to prove the Cathlic church as the church that is not only infallible but always right.

Luther founded a new religion with new doctrines, and he was an anti-semite.

Catholicism wasn’t founded by a pope.

FWIW, I think Luther was a mentally ill malcontent, who happened to be right on a few points about how the Catholic Church was being run.

IMO, being right about how the Church was wrong isn’t enough to start your own religion. I’ll never understand why people flock to mentally ill malcontents who claim to have enlightenment or even a special mandate from God. It happens every day, but I still don’t get it.

Anyway, comparing a pope to a Baptist minister (each lead their respective church) is valid.

Comparing a Pope to Luther, who is the founder of a new religion isn’t valid. To make it valid, you would have to compare Luther to the founder of the Catholic Church, Jesus.

 

[JonNC]

Luther founded a new religion with new doctrines, and he was an anti-semite.

Catholicism wasn’t founded by a pope.

FWIW, I think Luther was a mentally ill malcontent, who happened to be right on a few points about how the Catholic Church was being run.

IMO, being right about how the Church was wrong isn’t enough to start your own religion. I’ll never understand why people flock to mentally ill malcontents who claim to have enlightenment or even a special mandate from God. It happens every day, but I still don’t get it.

Anyway, comparing a pope to a Baptist minister (each lead their respective church) is valid.

Comparing a Pope to Luther, who is the founder of a new religion isn’t valid. To make it valid, you would have to compare Luther to the founder of the Catholic Church, Jesus.

And we keep fighting with the polemics that are 500 years old.
Instead of doing all we can, with charity, to overcome our differences.
Jon

 

[gcnuss]

Luther founded a new religion with new doctrines…

Kalt,

This statement shows a grievous misunderstanding of Lutheranism. Christianity is a religion and we are Christians. We are not a new religion. We worship the same God that has been worshiped throughout the history of Christianity, the triune God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We profess the same three creeds that the Catholic Church professes – Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian. You, as a Catholic, may refer to us as heretics (not that I agree with you) but we are Christians nevertheless, just like our Catholic brothers and sisters.

 

[East_Anglican]

I like your quote, East Anglican from Thomas Kempis’ Imitation of Christ. Another good one is “I’d rather feel contrition then know how to define it.” Kempis’ chapter on death is very good, and puts everything in our life in to perspective: “I’d rather pray for a good life rather than a long one.”

Thank you.

The whole quote is “What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.”

Another good one is “Simplicity leads to God, purity embraces and enjoys Him.”

There’s also “Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars.”

Thomas A Kempis is good.

 

[kalt]

Kalt,

This statement shows a grievous misunderstanding of Lutheranism. Christianity is a religion and we are Christians. We are not a new religion. We worship the same God that has been worshiped throughout the history of Christianity, the triune God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We profess the same three creeds that the Catholic Church professes – Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian. You, as a Catholic, may refer to us as heretics (not that I agree with you) but we are Christians nevertheless, just like our Catholic brothers and sisters.

You’re right. But when someone asks you for your religion, say at the hospital, you will say Lutheran, Catholic, or Baptist. If not, you, a Lutheran, may get a visit from a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister.

You’re right, though. Luther founded a new Christian sect and changed doctrine.

 

[kalt]

And we keep fighting with the polemics that are 500 years old.
Instead of doing all we can, with charity, to overcome our differences.
Jon

What do you mean by “overcome our differences.”

Why do you think that discussing the differences between how the two religons were founded is a bad thing? How can the two groups “overcome our diffrences” if talking about the differences between them is off limits?

I’m really curious about what overcoming the differences means, though. What would overcoming the differences look like?

 

[JonNC]

What do you mean by “overcome our differences.”

Why do you think that discussing the differences between how the two religons were founded is a bad thing? How can the two groups “overcome our diffrences” if talking about the differences between them is off limits?

I’m really curious about what overcoming the differences means, though. What would overcoming the differences look like?

Well, for starters, we are not 2 religions, as your own catchism points out. Even the implication spoils the air of dialogue.

Next, calling Martin Luther a mentally ill malcontent certainly doesn’t provide for a charitable exchange, any more than were I to refer to Pope Leo X in a like manner.

I would suggest you review some of the good dialogues between Lutherans and Catholics on the Vatican or USCCB websites. The JDDJ is a great example.

Jon

 

[Ginger2]

I realize this sampling of Catholic anti-semitism…
240
Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews “have committed the most abominable of crimes” in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason “the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election”

414
St. Cyril of Alexandria expels Jews from his city
937
Pope Leo VII encourages his newly appointed archbishop of Mainz to expel all Jews who refuse to be baptized
1010-1020
In Rouen, Orléans, Limoges, Mainz, and probably also in Rome, Jews are converted by force, massacred, or expelled
1096
Massacres of Jews takes place in the First Crusade, destroying entire Jewish communities in Mainz, Speyer, Worms, Cologne and other cities. The Jewish chronicler reports: “The enemies stripped them naked and dragged them off, granting quarter to none, save those few who accepted baptism. The number of the slain was eight hundred in these two days.” The chronicler Guibert de Nogent reports that the Rouen Crusaders said: “We desire to go and fight God’s enemies in the East; but we have before our eyes certain Jews, a race more inimical to God than any other”
1267
The Synod of Breslau decrees compulsory ghettos for Jews
1279
The Synod of Ofen decrees that Christians cannot sell or rent real estate to Jews
1345
King John authorizes his subjects in Liegnitz and Breslau to destroy the Jewish cemeteries in order to use the tombstones to repair the city walls
1456
Pope Callistus III bans all social communication between Christians and Jews
1475
The entire Jewish community in Trent, northern Italy, is put to death on the allegation that it had murdered a boy for religious purposes
1492
After forcing many Jews to be baptized and then referring to them as Marranos (swine), and after an Inquisition in which some 700 Marranos were burnt at the stake for showing signs of “Jewish” taint, Spain expels all Jews from the country
1553
Cardinal Carafa instigates a public burning of copies of the Talmud and other Jewish religious works in a square in Rome
1555-1559
Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear
1566-1572
Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons
1592-1605
Pope Clement VIII includes a ban on all Jewish books in the expanded Index of Forbidden Books
1826
Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

…pales in comparison to Luther’s remark:

“…Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”

People please, can we not attack each other for past atrocities, but try to live a better faith then those who have gone before us?

 

[ICA04]

That is a cop out. But thank you for validating what I already knew.

By the way, the three to four thousands killed (in the 300 years) you refer to was a tragedy, but has I already expressed the Inquisition was not under Papal authority. And please, don’t let me remind you of the witch hunts whereupon tens of thousands were killed by Protestants. Two can place this game, ICA04. You’ve gone too far.

What is a cop out? The truth? So then thousands were not burned at the stake by Catholics? Tens of thousands of Catholics were killed by Protestants? Please. Where are your sources for such things? Next thing we know, you are going to name Billy Graham as anti-Christian if you continue in this direction. Give it up.

 

[kalt]

Well, for starters, we are not 2 religions, as your own catchism points out. Even the implication spoils the air of dialogue.

Next, calling Martin Luther a mentally ill malcontent certainly doesn’t provide for a charitable exchange, any more than were I to refer to Pope Leo X in a like manner.

I would suggest you review some of the good dialogues between Lutherans and Catholics on the Vatican or USCCB websites. The JDDJ is a great example.

Jon

I think it’s common knowledge that Luther was mentally ill. Mentally stable people don’t say the things he did. And they don’t see things that aren’t there. He was obviously a malcontent, too.

If you think that’s something that shouldn’t be discussed, I’m left wondering why. Is it something that you would rather sweep under the rug? Ignore? Deny?

You belong to a religion (a Christian religion/sect) that was founded by this man. If you are uncomfortable talking about his mental state, why do you follow his religion (sect), and doctrine?

FWIW, the title of this forum is “Non-Catholic Religions”.

 

[kalt]

I realize this sampling of Catholic anti-semitism…
240
Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews “have committed the most abominable of crimes” in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason “the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election”

414
St. Cyril of Alexandria expels Jews from his city
937
Pope Leo VII encourages his newly appointed archbishop of Mainz to expel all Jews who refuse to be baptized
1010-1020
In Rouen, Orléans, Limoges, Mainz, and probably also in Rome, Jews are converted by force, massacred, or expelled
1096
Massacres of Jews takes place in the First Crusade, destroying entire Jewish communities in Mainz, Speyer, Worms, Cologne and other cities. The Jewish chronicler reports: “The enemies stripped them naked and dragged them off, granting quarter to none, save those few who accepted baptism. The number of the slain was eight hundred in these two days.” The chronicler Guibert de Nogent reports that the Rouen Crusaders said: “We desire to go and fight God’s enemies in the East; but we have before our eyes certain Jews, a race more inimical to God than any other”
1267
The Synod of Breslau decrees compulsory ghettos for Jews
1279
The Synod of Ofen decrees that Christians cannot sell or rent real estate to Jews
1345
King John authorizes his subjects in Liegnitz and Breslau to destroy the Jewish cemeteries in order to use the tombstones to repair the city walls
1456
Pope Callistus III bans all social communication between Christians and Jews
1475
The entire Jewish community in Trent, northern Italy, is put to death on the allegation that it had murdered a boy for religious purposes
1492
After forcing many Jews to be baptized and then referring to them as Marranos (swine), and after an Inquisition in which some 700 Marranos were burnt at the stake for showing signs of “Jewish” taint, Spain expels all Jews from the country
1553
Cardinal Carafa instigates a public burning of copies of the Talmud and other Jewish religious works in a square in Rome
1555-1559
Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear
1566-1572
Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons
1592-1605
Pope Clement VIII includes a ban on all Jewish books in the expanded Index of Forbidden Books
1826
Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

…pales in comparison to Luther’s remark:

“…Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”

People please, can we not attack each other for past atrocities, but try to live a better faith then those who have gone before us?

No one should take these comments as personal attacks. We’re discussing the history of 2 Christian religions. Why do people want to avoid talking about who founded a religion and what it was founded on? It seems like a valid topic to me.

And why not talk about what some very poor popes did and said?

If someone’s not interested or if it makes them uncomfortable to face the truth of their own religion, they should skip the thread.

Calling the topic invalid or unproductive doesn’t make sense to me.

I’m not here to reconcile the differences between Catholicism and any other Christian or non-Christian religion. I’m here only to discuss different religions and Catholicism.

Some may be here to try to come up with a 3rd Christian religion, a mix of Lutheranism and Catholicism, but I’m not interested in that.

Each faith is what it is. I’m not here to convert, be converted, or to come to a mutual agreement on beliefs.

Is that what you are looking for? Concessions from the “other side”?

 

[Cinette]

*You are back Ginger2!!!

Well, I have given you up for Lent!

Actually I have given you up altogether. As long as you keep on spewing hatred against the Catholic Church you are not to be taken seriously at all.

Goodbye!
Cinette*

 

[Ginger2]

Shocking things everyone should know about Luther
or
Shocking things everyone should know about Catholic Popes

Talk about whatever topic you like, but the purpose of threads like this always end up being about bashing one person’s faith over another based on what someone did x many years ago.

It is not edifying for anyone.

If people are putting their faith in Martin Luther they are misguided just as much as any man who places his in any other man.

We are to place our faith in God alone.

So if you want to discuss certain Christians and why we should not place our faith in this one or the other one, that could be a profitable dialog.

But if it is simply to say, “my church father is better than yours…” you are wasting your time.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

[josie_L]

What is a cop out? The truth? So then thousands were not burned at the stake by Catholics? Tens of thousands of Catholics were killed by Protestants? Please. Where are your sources for such things? Next thing we know, you are going to name Billy Graham as anti-Christian if you continue in this direction. Give it up.

ICA04, I think you have raised “ignorance is bliss” to a new level.

P.S. Billy Graham is a wonderful christian, you might try emulating him.

 

[josie_L]

What of the witch hunts conducted by catholics?

And which witch hunts would you be refering to?

 

[josie_L]

I realize this sampling of Catholic anti-semitism…
240
Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews “have committed the most abominable of crimes” in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason “the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election”

414
St. Cyril of Alexandria expels Jews from his city
937
Pope Leo VII encourages his newly appointed archbishop of Mainz to expel all Jews who refuse to be baptized
1010-1020
In Rouen, Orléans, Limoges, Mainz, and probably also in Rome, Jews are converted by force, massacred, or expelled
1096
Massacres of Jews takes place in the First Crusade, destroying entire Jewish communities in Mainz, Speyer, Worms, Cologne and other cities. The Jewish chronicler reports: “The enemies stripped them naked and dragged them off, granting quarter to none, save those few who accepted baptism. The number of the slain was eight hundred in these two days.” The chronicler Guibert de Nogent reports that the Rouen Crusaders said: “We desire to go and fight God’s enemies in the East; but we have before our eyes certain Jews, a race more inimical to God than any other”
1267
The Synod of Breslau decrees compulsory ghettos for Jews
1279
The Synod of Ofen decrees that Christians cannot sell or rent real estate to Jews
1345
King John authorizes his subjects in Liegnitz and Breslau to destroy the Jewish cemeteries in order to use the tombstones to repair the city walls
1456
Pope Callistus III bans all social communication between Christians and Jews
1475
The entire Jewish community in Trent, northern Italy, is put to death on the allegation that it had murdered a boy for religious purposes
1492
After forcing many Jews to be baptized and then referring to them as Marranos (swine), and after an Inquisition in which some 700 Marranos were burnt at the stake for showing signs of “Jewish” taint, Spain expels all Jews from the country
1553
Cardinal Carafa instigates a public burning of copies of the Talmud and other Jewish religious works in a square in Rome
1555-1559
Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear
1566-1572
Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons
1592-1605
Pope Clement VIII includes a ban on all Jewish books in the expanded Index of Forbidden Books
1826
Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

…pales in comparison to Luther’s remark:

“…Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”

Some of what you missed concerning Luther and anti-semitism:

There was, according to Luther, no good or human quality about the Jews. “What is good in us Christians, they ignore; what is wrong in us Christians the Jews take advantage of.” “The breath of the Jews reeks.” “Their rabbis teach them that theft and robbery is no sin” (W53, 489).

“The Jews professing to be surgeons or doctors deprive the Christians who make use of their medicaments of health and prosperity for such Jewish doctors believe they find especial favour with their God if they torment and furtively kill Christians. And we, fools that we are, even turn for succour to our enemies and their evil ways in the times when our lives are in danger, which is indeed sorely trying God’s patience.”

I do not believe that even the notorious “Der Sturmer” of Dr. Streicher surpassed the sayings of Brother Martin. “It is impossible to teach or re-educate the Jews”. “A more bloodthirsty and vindictive race has never seen the light of day.” So the Reformer goes on and on.

As so often before, Luther’s worst utterances are not fit for quotation or reproduction. “Many of the obscenities occurring in his sermons and writings on the Jews are suggested by proverbs which themselves reek too much of the stable, but which he sometimes still further embellishes” (Grisar). “In his books (on Jews) Luther’s peculiar talent for indelicate language reached its climax. He wrote with unchecked ferocity, and indulged freely in his quaint practice of befouling the objects of his hate with imaginary animal excreta” (Lipsky).

“Were God to promise me no other Messiah than him for whom the Jews hope, I would much rather be a pig than a man,” is one of his mildest sayings. “Were a rabbi to ease himself into a vessel under your nose, both thick and thin, and say `Here you have a delicious conserve’, you would have to say you had never tasted a better dish in your life. Risk your neck and say differently! For if a man has the power to say like the rabbis that right is left and left is right, regardless of God and all His creatures, he can just as well say that his anus is his mouth, that his belly is a pudding-dish, and that a pudding-dish is his belly"”(E32, 285).

“Whenever you see or think of a Jew, say to yourself `Look, that mouth that I see before me has every Saturday cursed, execrated, and spat upon my dear Lord Jesus Christ Who redeemed me with His precious blood, and has also invoked maledictions on my wife and child and all Christians that they might be murdered and perish miserably. He himself would gladly do it if he could, if only in order to get hold of our goods; maybe he has already today many times spat on the ground, as it is their custom to do when the name of Jesus is mentioned, so that his venomous spittle still hangs about his mouth and beard and leaves scarcely room to spit again. Were I to eat, drink, or speak with such a devilish mouth, I might as well eat and drink out of a can or vessel brimful with devils, and thus become partaker with the devils who dwell in the Jews and spit at the Precious Blood of Christ. From which God may preserve us” (E32, 141).

 

[ConfusedTim]

ok - lets get to the nub of this - everyone agrees that Luther, like some Cathoic Popes was not god like to say the VERY least.Some people in the Catholic Church and some protestants church leaders have also not been Christ like.

But the point here is that the Luther, by inventing/promting new doctrine must claim that it came from God otherwise what value does it hold? If he is making these claims you then have to look at they type of man advancing the proposition to be able to judge its validity. When i look at Luther i just dont seem him in the light of a God inspired man? So for me sola scripture and the rest seems to be man made.

Similarly, if the Catholic Church is using any dogma that was advanced by an evil Pope then it too would be debunked in my mind. We dont want man made stuff - we only want holy spirit inspitred teachings.