Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

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for Catholics, Luther has been cursed to hell at Trent.
Actually, there is a significant difference between early and later Catholic approaches to Luther. During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as a means of discrediting the Reformation was the normal Catholic approach.The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholics began to study Luther as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian.

For instance, 20th Century German Roman Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz held Luther was a theologian of the highest rank and a profoundly religious man, a true Christian, who lived by a deep faith in Jesus Christ. He did this while critisizing Luther for being a victim of subjectivism, and not understanding true Catholicism.

This is much different than Father Patrick O’Hare who held Luther was not only mad, but morally depraved and corrupt. He asserts that Luther in the Wartburg was in close touch with Satan. Luther lived indecently, decried celibacy and virginity, sanctioned adultery, dishonored marriage, authorized prostitution and polygamy, and was a drunkard and frequenter of taverns who preached his theology in the fumes of alcohol in the midst of his fellow revolutionaries.
 
I’m going to assume your paradigm is correct for the sake of argument. That is, Protestants don’t have any authority to interpret Bible verses differently than the God ordained infallible Roman Catholic Church.

But, if I recall, the Roman Catholic Church allows her theologians the freedom to interpret Scripture not infallibly defined by the Roman Catholic Church.

If you can produce infallibly defined verses that Luther interpreted differently, then you could say, “Luther interpreted Scripture differently from the Catholic Church.” If you can’t, you’re being inconsistent with the actual parameters set up by your religious worldview.
Luther taught heretical doctrines. By teaching heretical doctrines, in effect, he had different interpretation/s of the Scripture from that of the Catholic Church. Otherwise, the General Council would not have condemned him.
 
Let us remember that throughout Church history, many Christians did not hold things like the apocrypha (Deutero-canonicals) to be sacred Scripture. In the 16th Century Catholic men like Erasmus, Luther, and the great Catholic scholar Cajetan expressed doubts on some of the New Testament books as well. These men all share one thing in common. They formed their opinions on the canon previous to the council of Trent. The liberty these men had was simply the liberty as allowed by the Roman Catholic Church. If the New Catholic Encyclopedia is correct, Erasmus, Cajetan, and Luther, and a host of others previous to them had every right within the Catholic system to engage in Biblical criticism and debate over the extent of the Canon. In the case of Luther, Cajetan, and Erasmus, theirs was not a radical higher criticism. The books they questioned were books that had been questioned by previous generations. None were so extreme as to engage in Marcion-like canon-destruction. Both Erasmus and Luther translated the entirety of Bible, and published it.

Catholic apologist robert Sungenis has stated:

…it is true that only at the council of Trent did the canon finally become infallible and irreformable, and that is because Trent made it crystal clear it was doing so. The Council of Florence did not use the key words in its formulation that Trent finally used. Granted, Catholics during the time of Florence had to give their assent to what Florence decreed, but this did not mean, for sake of conscience, that a Catholic could not contest what Florence said about the canon. This is why even Cardinal Cajetan contested Florence’s canon list. So yes, Luther could contest the canon prior to Trent and do so quite legitimately. But this would only force the Church to make the final decision, and it did so in 1563, after which Luther would have been bound to obey it. If not, he would have been excommunicated, just as he was in 1520.

James Swan
Let me suggest that those individuals who were perplexed or did not accept the deuterocanonical books did not represent the whole or those of the Magisterium. Hence, even if individuals throughout History were unsure of whether they were divinely inspired, councils throughout time always affirmed the septuagint, the Church Fathers also reaffirm the belief in the deuterocanonicals has they were remarked or quoted in correspondence, in a way that suggested/stated they were already accepted as inspired.

The Council of Trent put an end to any questioning (due to the threat that Luther posed) there may have been on the part of some by stating definitively the canon of the Bible, that is, to say that henceforth, no one could speculate or argue against the divinely inspired deuteros.

“At the Council of Trent the Church put the matter to rest by listing definitively the accepted books, which included the deuterocanonicals, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms this list (CCC 120).”

This was written by Steve Ray, a Catholic apologist. James Akin, another Catholic apologist also writes:

“It is thus a complete myth that, as Protestants often charge, the Catholic Church “added” the deuterocanonicals to the Bible at the Council of Trent. These books had been in the Bible from before the time canon was initially settled in the 380s. All the Council of Trent did was reaffirm, in the face of the new Protestant attack on Scripture, what had been the historic Bible of the Church—the standard edition of which was Jerome’s own Vulgate, including the seven deuterocanonicals!”

"The early acceptance of the deuterocanonicals was carried down through Church history. The Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly writes: “It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the [Protestant Old Testament] . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called Apocrypha or deuterocanonical books. The reason for this is that the Old Testament which passed in the first instance into the hands of Christians was . . . the Greek translation known as the Septuagint. . . . most of the Scriptural quotations found in the New Testament are based upon it rather than the Hebrew… . . In the first two centuries . . . the Church seems to have accept all, or most of, these additional books as inspired and to have treated them without question as Scripture.”

Also,

“aside from the absence of Machabees from the Codex Vaticanus (the very oldest copy of the Greek Old Testament), all the entire manuscripts contain all the deutero writings.”

Also,

“Protestant author Paul Achtemeier tells us, “Eastern and Roman Catholic tradition generally considered the Old Testament ‘apocryphal’ books to be canonical. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that these books were clearly denied canonical status (in Protestant circles). The Roman church, however, continues to affirm their place in the canon of Scripture” (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1st ed. [Harper & Row, c1985], 69).”

Also,

“The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).”

It’s funny that Luther wanted to take out not only the deuterocanonical books from the Bible but Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, Jude, and Revelations as well.
 
Luther unfortunately was a man that was led by a group of rich lay people and decided to become a heretic and not only disagree by defile Sacred Scripture, Sacred Teachings, and Sacred traditions.

Luther knew reformations were needed as did most of the layity and the clergy but decided to act outside the box to fix them and once the ball started rolling could not control what he had started.

Remember Judas Iscariot turned Jesus over to the Jewish authority not realizing or knowing Jesus would be killed.

If Luther had worked within the Church he would have probably attained more than he ruined and would not have to try to change scripture to support his claims.

I think he meant well but let it get out of control.

For one if Luther could look back and see what the Lutheran Church thinks of the Blessed Virgin Mary alone he would have never did what he did
 
Confused Tim:

We Lutherans are well aware of, and dismayed by, Luther’s polemic against the Jews. Let it be known that we do not hold Luther’s views expressed in On the Jews and their Lies as normative for our theology nor for our relations with Jews. If you want to see the side of Luther that inspires us, read his Small Catechism with its excellent expositions on the Ten Commandments, the Lord’s Prayer, the Apostles’ Creed, the Sacrament of Baptism, and the Sacrament of the Altar.
I had no idea that Luther was anti-Semitic. However, some of his doctrines shocked me.

Luther said, “No sin can separate us from him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day” (Let Your Sins Be Strong, 1521):

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

But Paul warned, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1 Cor. 6:9) See Hebrews 10:26-30 to see what happens to us when we commit sins after we are regenerated by baptism.

I believe Paul. 🙂

SHW
 
I had no idea that Luther was anti-Semitic. However, some of his doctrines shocked me.

Luther said, “No sin can separate us from him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day” (Let Your Sins Be Strong, 1521):

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

But Paul warned, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1 Cor. 6:9) See Hebrews 10:26-30 to see what happens to us when we commit sins after we are regenerated by baptism.

I believe Paul. 🙂

SHW
I am not sticking up for Martin Luther but the Church at the time was anti Semitic.

Luther found it necessary to have the faith alone theology. Remember he was branded a Heretic and condemned to hell. He found however that Scripture did not support this statement and why he tried to rewrite Scripture.

Most Protestants do not like to debate this ideology as they cannot support it with scripture as a whole either.
 
I am not sticking up for Martin Luther but the Church at the time was anti Semitic.

Luther found it necessary to have the faith alone theology. Remember he was branded a Heretic and condemned to hell. He found however that Scripture did not support this statement and why he tried to rewrite Scripture.

Most Protestants do not like to debate this ideology as they cannot support it with scripture as a whole either.
I agree. People (in Luther’s time), Catholics included, believed that the “Jews” alone killed Christ. (In ignorance, some still do.) However, we now know that it was Adams’ sin and God’s subsequent mercy and love for us which made it necessary for Christ to die on the cross so that He could pay the price of our redemption so that we can inherit eternal life. I just never knew that Luther was personally anti-Semitic. I hadn’t read that about him or else I had forgotten it.

Paul as Saul also was instrumental in persecuting and killing the early Christians. People like to use “religion” as a reason to kill each other if they don’t agree doctrinally; just as some of the Muslims still do today.

Pax,
SHW
 
As I see it though today many Protestant Churches are becoming closer and closer back to their roots. Back to Catholism. From the Creed, to the Saints, To the Blessed Mother and ideology.

They are splintering into thousands of sects and cannot maintain any belief or rules.
 
I have to add that sects that call themselves “born again” are sprouting everywhere here in our place day by day. They visit catholic households attacking the doctrines of the Church especially the teachings pertaining to the Blessed Mother.
 
I agree with W Stewart.

TetriumQuid, sola scriptura and sola fida are both against Scripture, and the (up to that point) 1500 year teaching and interpretation of Scripture (check earlier posts on this subject, if not, I’ll provide you with them.)

Catholic Theologians can not (and do not) differ from doctrinal definitions of Scripture defined by the Catholic Church. They might expand on a specific doctrine, but only take that doctrine forward down the same road (an example is Aquainas). Luther refuted specific Catholic doctrine, exiting off of that doctrine’s road, and taking it either to a completely different road or to a dead end. Could a Protestant correctly interpret Scripture, and therefore be in agreement with the Catholic Church? yes. But Christ started a visible Church (Catholic) to protect that teaching and deposit of faith from erroneous interpretation.

and W_Stewart hits a good point on the “born again” Christians. It seems Luther opened flood gates that it’s OK to interpret Scripture anyway you want…hence 30,000 Protestant denominations today all differing in ways on Christ’s teaching. It seems Christ’s Divinity is constantly under attack and being watered down. Soon some Protestants are going to say that Christ was just a good guy with some nice teachings. But certainly not the Son of God. He wasn’t really dead for those three days after being crucified on the Cross, he was just in a coma and woke from it that Sunday. Sounds preposterous, but, since the time of Luther, who says this teaching is incorrect if “anything goes” as far as interpreting Christ’s teachings? This is what could happen when you are allowed personal interpretation and leave the Catholic Church. Watch joel Osteen’s shows. An hour of preaching and maybe 7 minutes of it he talks about Christ or the Gospell. But he does pick and choose a Gospel passage and direct it down “the prosperity gospel” road. He talks about how Christ wants you to be rich, and he will reward you materially on this earth for claiming Him as your personal Lord and Saviour. Heh???:confused:

And, once again I’ll ask, where did Luther (or his followers) get the authority to start his own Church??

Luther was Catholic. I am Catholic. Luther disagreed with doctrinal issues. He left the Church. Doesn’t this mean that he (and his new church in his name) could be teaching error on key teachings of Christ?? If I left the Catholic Church over key doctrinal issues to start a church interpreting them differrently, where would I claim to have the authority to teach these doctrines differently? Could I be in error on key teachings of Christ?
 
Maybe you are referring to something I don’t know about.

First prove that Luther changed a Biblical doctrine. Then I will research it and see if what you claim is true, fair enough?

Ginger
Circular.

You see, first Luther decided that he didn’t like the doctrine, then he decided that to support his changes he would have to change the Bible.

Now, centuries later, you defend the changes by saying “prove that Luther changed Biblical doctrine.”, as if the Bible (and Luther’s Bible of course) were the only source.

That, by dear, in itself is a change in doctrine.

You don’t seem to realize that what you think are the proofs of stability are actually the changes.
 
I’m sure good old Mr. Satan down in Hell is having a wonderful time watching fellow brothers and sisters in Christ on this thread continue to bicker and attack each other back and forth over a 500 year old issue.

Heeeeeeey…I’ve got an idea! Why do we rename this thread “What do Catholics and Protestants have in common?”
First, debate is not evil. I have no hatred (or even dislike) for any of the people I diagree with on this issue. Satan has nothing to do with it.

Second, is this really just a 500-yr-old issue?

The changes made then are affecting people today. IMO, the changes made then are still keeping people from the truth today.

It’s still an important issue, and it’s worth talking about.

Now that I think about it, I bet Satan would love it if we (Catholics) gave up and agreed that anything anyone wants to believe is just fine, so long as they say “Lord, Lord”, that any translation of the Bible is fine, so long as it supports what you choose to believe.
 
Circular.

You see, first Luther decided that he didn’t like the doctrine, then he decided that to support his changes he would have to change the Bible.

Now, centuries later, you defend the changes by saying “prove that Luther changed Biblical doctrine.”, as if the Bible (and Luther’s Bible of course) were the only source.

That, by dear, in itself is a change in doctrine.

You don’t seem to realize that what you think are the proofs of stability are actually the changes.
In-other-words, you have no proof so you will just reassert your believe.
 
It’s not a matter of cleaning him off…Luther is nothing to me.

It’s a matter of truth. If Catholics want to bash Luther, there is plenty they can say without making up fables. But, then they must remember they the Scriptures say we are all guilty of the very things we accuse others of.

Since Catholics have more stains on their record, (they have been around many more years lending time for many more opportunities to sin) they would do better to worry about the present rather than the past.

Ginger
That we’re all sinners is a given. Where has anyone forgotten that?

Luther changed doctrine and the Bible. That’s what we’re talking about. It’s apparent tha you will not accept the truth of that statement.

If you want to argue in favor of Luther, you will have to accept that he made those changes and then come up with a good argument for his authority to do so. Otherwise, you’re only denying the truth about Luther. You really have no argument.

If someone wants to join the argument who will admit the truth about Luther–that he most definitely made changes to both doctrine and the Bible–and defend those changes, I think all Catholics here would appreciate hearing your arguments.
 
That we’re all sinners is a given. Where has anyone forgotten that?

Luther changed doctrine and the Bible. That’s what we’re talking about. It’s apparent tha you will not accept the truth of that statement.

If you want to argue in favor of Luther, you will have to accept that he made those changes and then come up with a good argument for his authority to do so. Otherwise, you’re only denying the truth about Luther. You really have no argument.

If someone wants to join the argument who will admit the truth about Luther–that he most definitely made changes to both doctrine and the Bible–and defend those changes, I think all Catholics here would appreciate hearing your arguments.
I’ve already proven Luther did not make changes. Luther did not invent Sola Fida as Catholics define it.

Proof 1. Protestants don’t teach Sola Faith as defined by the RC
Proof 2. Luther said, “Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” (An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,)- by Martin Luther
Proof 3. The word “only” you claim Luther added to Scriptures is not found in Protestant Bibles
etc., etc., etc.,…
 
I’ve already proven Luther did not make changes. Luther did not invent Sola Fida as Catholics define it.

Proof 1. Protestants don’t teach Sola Faith as defined by the RC
Proof 2. Luther said, “Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” (An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,)- by Martin Luther
Proof 3. The word “only” you claim Luther added to Scriptures is not found in Protestant Bibles
etc., etc., etc.,…
Ginger,
I might add also that sola scriptura as often defined here by Catholics, is not what Luther taught or believed.

Jon
 
I’ve already proven Luther did not make changes. Luther did not invent Sola Fida as Catholics define it.

Proof 1. Protestants don’t teach Sola Faith as defined by the RC
Proof 2. Luther said, “Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” (An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,)- by Martin Luther
Proof 3. The word “only” you claim Luther added to Scriptures is not found in Protestant Bibles
etc., etc., etc.,…
I’ve mentioned the changes he made to the Bible, but you ignore those changes.

He also change several points of doctrine, but you seem to think that those changes don’t matter.

You don’t want to hear it, but the canon of the Bible was settled once and for all in the 4th century.

What you also don’t seem to realize is that the old dispute over the OT canon, that the Greek examples of some of the books couldn’t be found in Hebrew, was a concern that was never acted on (the canon never changed), and that Hebrew examples of some of those books were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The argument for non-inclusion in the insipred books of the canon is invalid. There are examples in Hebrew.

If you still choose to dispute those books, you’ll have to find another argument. Relying on Jerome’s argument, which has been proven false, is useless.

The Septuagint is quoted liberally in the NT. It was the version of the OT used by Jesus and the other Jews in the area. It was written in Greek, the language of the area.

Importantly, the Hebrew canon (which the Protestant OT is based on) wasn’t decided until about 100 AD. Jerome, and later Luther, were following the Jews’ arguments for excluding those books (that they weren’t found in Hebrew at the time).

Those 7 books were suspected by some Jews, Jerome, and Luther, but the Church Fathers considered them canon and said so.

Jesus used the Septuagint, and the earliest xians (Xian-Jews) used it.

Why, then, would any Christian choose not to?
 
I’ve already proven Luther did not make changes. Luther did not invent Sola Fida as Catholics define it.

Proof 1. Protestants don’t teach Sola Faith as defined by the RC
Proof 2. Luther said, “Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” (An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,)- by Martin Luther
Proof 3. The word “only” you claim Luther added to Scriptures is not found in Protestant Bibles
etc., etc., etc.,…
Are you saying, then, that Luther supported the Canon of the Catholic Church? That he accepted all doctrine?

If you’re saying anything else, then you admit that he made changes.
 
In-other-words, you have no proof so you will just reassert your believe.
Did Luther accept Papal infallibility, all 7 Sacraments, Purgatory? Did he use the canon that was detemined by the CC w/ the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Are you really trying to say that Luther made no changes?

Honestly, I’ve never head anyone claim that Luther made no changes. In fact, that he made changes is what attracts most of his followers to his church.
 
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