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ElToro
Guest
I would say that those that dress like slobs at Mass are largely a product of deficient formations as humans and not poverty or actual physical need.
Parents play a HUGE part in our formation as humans.
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Parents play a HUGE part in our formation as humans.
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ElToro
Guest
A few weeks ago I was driving down Highway 10 on my way to Dodger Stadium (don’t laugh.) I was a bit ahead of schedule so I turned-off in the Byzantine-Latino Quarter of LA to see Saint Sophia’s Greek Orthodox Cathedral.
I parked and got out of my truck wearing a black guayabera and khaki walking shorts. I noticed at the door that it spelled-out a dress code. Among other things, no shorts. No problem. I went back to my truck, pulled on a pair of black trousers and dress shoes (I was visiting) while hopefully no one saw me in my boxers.
Walked in with no problem except for those that asked me for a blessing inside the church.
I have to admit though it was nice to see that people cared enough to set a standard.
I parked and got out of my truck wearing a black guayabera and khaki walking shorts. I noticed at the door that it spelled-out a dress code. Among other things, no shorts. No problem. I went back to my truck, pulled on a pair of black trousers and dress shoes (I was visiting) while hopefully no one saw me in my boxers.
Walked in with no problem except for those that asked me for a blessing inside the church.
I have to admit though it was nice to see that people cared enough to set a standard.
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MtnDwellar
Guest
Are you kidding? Changing the atmosphere within the Church? I think that the atmosphere of the Church is created by the presence of Christ within. The atmosphere is raised by the prayers of the people. The atmosphere is created by the songs of the faithful. The Holy Spirit creates the atmosphere. Clothing is not even noticed.
One of the most pious and prayerful men I have ever met wore nothing except jeans and flannel shirts. During the summer, the sleeves were cut off of the shirts. He lived a near Spartan life, was extremely charitable, volunteered, and helped many people. He once told me, “Christ calls us to give. Sometimes you have to give until you have nothing left.” I felt fortunate when I met him at Church. I suspect that some would look down upon him because of his appearance. They would be making a huge mistake.
ElToro is doing a good job of expressing the kind of thought that I feared other Catholics might have. It is impossible to know what people worry about by the way that they are dressed, as it is also impossible to know about their upbringings. Judging others, especially based upon their appearance, is sinful.
On the surface, people may appear different. It is with God’s grace that we view the differences as a wonderful gift from God to create such diversity among people.
John 7:24 tells us, "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
People may select their wardrobe, not based upon wealth, but upon values. I do not want to appear to be more than I am by the clothes that I wear. When I wear a suit, I feel important. I am not important. I am especially unimportant when in the presence of our Savior. I prefer to wear simple clothes, not from disrespect, but from humility. Please do not think that I have bad parents.
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Bohm_Bawerk
Guest
Not really. That’s a poor rebuttal. What your post illustrates is that those at Mass are focusing on what others are wearing rather than focusing on God. If you’re focusing on what others are wearing more than God, then that is a personal issue that one has to address. And a very urgent issue at that.
Personally, I don’t focus on what others are wearing. I don’t have the time to. When I go to Mass, God is the only one on my mind. This isn’t some sort of sanctimonious exclamation as it is by nature of the fact that when I’m at Mass, I focus on God. I do not carry a notebook with me on what others are wearing. I do not run home and protest on my computer of a certain couple wearing informal clothing. How do people manage to remember who is wearing what at Mass? It boggles me.
I wear trousers and a shirt by the way. I honestly can not recall what people are wearing at Mass. The fact that posters here have the ability to recall what fellow parishoners are wearing to a high degree of precision indicates an starker underlying problem that needs to be resolved.
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MissRose73
Guest
My mother was insistent that me and my sister dress nicely for Mass growing up. We were allowed to wear jeans but they could not be tight, had to be neat, and wear a nice non tee or sweatshirt type top with them. Most of the time, we opted for other nice, appropriate and modest clothes. I don’t ever recall being allowed to wear shorts, I know we may have worn nice capris in summer but with a nice shirt & dressy sandals.
My mother’s sister on the other hand was much stricter on her daughters who were close in age to me and my sister. Sunday Mass meant wearing a dress or skirt with nice shirt/blouse/sweater, no pants/slacks/trousers/shorts allowed. My aunt also dressed in a dress or suit style outfit. When we attended special occasions our cousins were in like Confirmation, etc, me and my sister definitely dressed up. My aunt has relaxed a bit on her dress for Mass, but still will not allow anyone her family regardless of age that goes to Mass with her to wear jeans and a tee shirt.
My mother’s sister on the other hand was much stricter on her daughters who were close in age to me and my sister. Sunday Mass meant wearing a dress or skirt with nice shirt/blouse/sweater, no pants/slacks/trousers/shorts allowed. My aunt also dressed in a dress or suit style outfit. When we attended special occasions our cousins were in like Confirmation, etc, me and my sister definitely dressed up. My aunt has relaxed a bit on her dress for Mass, but still will not allow anyone her family regardless of age that goes to Mass with her to wear jeans and a tee shirt.
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TrueLight
Guest
So you wouldn’t remember the girl kneeling in the pews in front of you with her low-rider jeans and umm stuff showing?
You wouldn’t remember the guy standing in front of you on the communion line with a wifebeater on?
Just curious.
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Stylites
Guest
Of course that is commendable, but then maybe you never had to sit in a pew behind someone wearing a t-shirt with vulgar words emblazened in the back, or went up for Holy Communion from a woman whose focus was more on revealing her cleavage than in revealing the Eucharist. Yes, see it and move on, but I believe others are saying that it would be better not have inappropriate attire thrust in their faces at all, thereby making Mass much more effective for others to focus on God.
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Bohm_Bawerk
Guest
Massive difference. There are certain kinds of clothing that “cries out for attention”. A woman who is wearing revealing clothing is “crying out for attention”. A man who wears a shirt with vulgar words emblazened on the back is “crying out for attention”. Of course everyone would notice what kind of clothing these people were wearing by virtue of the fact that their clothing is designed to attract people’s attention.So you wouldn’t remember the girl kneeling in the pews in front of you with her low-rider jeans and umm stuff showing?
You wouldn’t remember the guy standing in front of you on the communion line with a wifebeater on?
Just curious.
Shorts, jeans, sandals, flip-flops, etc, do not fit this bill. Their purpose is not to captivate people’s attention but to merely clothe people from their natural state.
Arguing against women wearing revealing clothing, or a person dressed in a clown’s outfit, is a strawman argument. I have seen that those who argue for ‘modesty’ (well, not really modesty, but homogeneity) always resort to these extremes. But we aren’t arguing against extremes as we are arguing about clothing that we see on a day-to-day basis.
Again, it is very nerve-wracking to see so many posters on this thread memorize what others are wearing at Mass, and to a high degree of precision. It makes one wonder whether Big Brother has penetrated God’s House as well?
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Stylites
Guest
That’s a fair assessment. I am only arguing against the extremes.
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Bluegoat
Guest
I think shorts can be dressy. The British have always used to have army uniforms in shorts for hot climates, and they didn’t look slobby.
It’s a lot more sensible than wearing a suit - an item that developed in cooler climates - in a hot muggy place.
It’s a lot more sensible than wearing a suit - an item that developed in cooler climates - in a hot muggy place.
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MissRose73
Guest
People can still dress appropriately for Mass despite the weather. I am sure there are tasteful and modest outfits that still allow people to keep cool in the summer heat. They can save the skimpy, vulgar and/or tight outfits for outside of Mass.
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Redratfish
Guest
Yes, because I just came from a wedding? once again, at a wedding you are being judged by human standards because there will be pictures of it. Weren’t Adam and Eve naked when they married? Obviously our human nature and not God’s will is the driving force behind huge dresses at weddings and Church. Don’t say you should be able to go to a wedding in what you normally wear to Church.
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Redratfish
Guest
I agree, most people who are pro shorts are not anti modesty. I just think you can wear shots and still be modest.
It use to be that anything less than a floor length dress was immodest. Are we still held to that standard? No, times change, and things that were once immodest aren’t anymore. Shorts IMO are not less modest than a knee length skirt
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
While it is true that we are not at Mass to be looking at the clothing that others are wearing, we are also not in a box wearing blinders that keep us from noticing others around us. Some look around to see others, some do not, but it is human nature to be curious about your surroundings, even at Mass. As much as you or I or anyone for that matter would like the Mass to be truly you and Jesus, the likelyhood of that happening for any of us we find very difficult (I as a father of 5 can attest.) However, that is my desire when I am at Mass and there are outside influences that make this hard and yes, unfortunately dress is one of these things.
Try and try as we may, it is difficult to ignore this, and while the proper response to this is Christian love for that person, a simple prayer for them, it is hard to not have a small pit in your stomach that is affected by this “distraction.” It would be ideal to just move past it and focus on why you are really at Mass, but the fact of the matter is that you have now been distracted. Human nature is such that you have to make that conscious decision to bring yourself back into focus on the true meaning of why you are there and not become the “clothing police.” I am not saying that is easy cause I know that it is not.
I guess the way that I have looked at it is this…if you were going to meet the president of the United States, what would you wear? To meet Pope Benedict, what would you wear? Does Jesus not deserve at least that (IMHO, much better)?
Try and try as we may, it is difficult to ignore this, and while the proper response to this is Christian love for that person, a simple prayer for them, it is hard to not have a small pit in your stomach that is affected by this “distraction.” It would be ideal to just move past it and focus on why you are really at Mass, but the fact of the matter is that you have now been distracted. Human nature is such that you have to make that conscious decision to bring yourself back into focus on the true meaning of why you are there and not become the “clothing police.” I am not saying that is easy cause I know that it is not.
I guess the way that I have looked at it is this…if you were going to meet the president of the United States, what would you wear? To meet Pope Benedict, what would you wear? Does Jesus not deserve at least that (IMHO, much better)?
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lauralh4
Guest
While I understand why shorts wouldn’t be appropriate for Mass, I have to say that I once found this rule EXTREMELY aggravating. My boyfriend and I were on a trip in a province outisde of Lima (Peru) with some friends. It was summer, and he had packed everything in a rush and forgot to pack long pants. On Sunday morning we were walking around town, not even planning to go to Mass yet but wanting to go visit the various churches there. My boyfriend was wearing shorts - nothing scandalous, they were long shorts down to his knees; it was very hot outside. When we went in to the first church, he was asked to leave because of what he was wearing. We couldn’t go in to many other churches because of the same thing. I tried to control my temper, but I was in a very bad mood for a while. Had we not found a church that would let him in while wearing shorts, he would’ve been forced to miss Sunday Mass. That annoyed me a LOT.
Like I said, I do understand the point, but in this case I was particularly frustrated because, while he should’ve probably packed long pants, it’s a mistake that could happen to anyone. I just thougth it’d be unfair to deny him the possibility of going to Sunday Mass because, technically, he didn’t own a pair of long pants while we were there. I don’t know, it’s just my opinion.
Like I said, I do understand the point, but in this case I was particularly frustrated because, while he should’ve probably packed long pants, it’s a mistake that could happen to anyone. I just thougth it’d be unfair to deny him the possibility of going to Sunday Mass because, technically, he didn’t own a pair of long pants while we were there. I don’t know, it’s just my opinion.
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ElToro
Guest
Please. Go to a fine restaurant where people are dressed nicely. If a group is then seated who are dressed like slobs it DOES change the atmosphere. That’s why many have dress codes.
There will ALWAYS be excuses to dress inappropriately for Mass. Always.
Just dress in a respectful manner and they you can be free of all such concerns.
And?
And that gives you license to dress like a slob for Mass?
Please. We are talking about not dressing like a slob for Mass. That is a world away from selecting one’s wardrobe.
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ElToro
Guest
People dress like slobs for the Mass largely because they feel they can get away with it – and they can for the most part.
To many people the Mass has become a very informal thing. A t-shirt/tank top, trunks and a pair of jelly sandals and you’re good to go! What people don’t realize is their slovenly behavior impacts the atmosphere around them.
I’m not talking about those who exist to judge anyone not wearing a suit or a mantilla. I’m talking about adding to the general coarseness of what has impacted so many Mass settings. By golly though each and ever person dressed inappropriately WILL have an excuse…
To many people the Mass has become a very informal thing. A t-shirt/tank top, trunks and a pair of jelly sandals and you’re good to go! What people don’t realize is their slovenly behavior impacts the atmosphere around them.
I’m not talking about those who exist to judge anyone not wearing a suit or a mantilla. I’m talking about adding to the general coarseness of what has impacted so many Mass settings. By golly though each and ever person dressed inappropriately WILL have an excuse…
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ElToro
Guest
Not at all.
But if people start showing up in shorts and tank-tops it DOES coarsen/cheapen the environment that’s supposed to be sacred.
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Stylites
Guest
This general topic of attire, and not judging by appearances, reminds me of one of the sayings of the Desert Fathers (from memory):
A old man had a charism of always providing exactly what another person needed. He would open his hands to give to a beggar, and just enough of the needed money would come out of his hands and fall into the hands of the other. One day, he was being begged by a woman who looked destitute, and was dressed in dirty rags. His hands opened and a little money came out. Then he saw another woman approach who was dressed in very fine clothes. He opened his hands and a lot of money came out. Being surprised by this, he asked someone about these two women. He was told that the one dressed in rags makes herself look impoverished in order to get more alms, while the one who was well-dressed is truly destitute but came from a good family, and still chooses to dress well.
A old man had a charism of always providing exactly what another person needed. He would open his hands to give to a beggar, and just enough of the needed money would come out of his hands and fall into the hands of the other. One day, he was being begged by a woman who looked destitute, and was dressed in dirty rags. His hands opened and a little money came out. Then he saw another woman approach who was dressed in very fine clothes. He opened his hands and a lot of money came out. Being surprised by this, he asked someone about these two women. He was told that the one dressed in rags makes herself look impoverished in order to get more alms, while the one who was well-dressed is truly destitute but came from a good family, and still chooses to dress well.
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Stylites
Guest
As the priest says in the linked video somewhere within this thread, there’s the process of desensitization which occurs, that once something no longer shocks or distracts us then even worse things come, and we become accustomed to them as well.
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