Should Abortion be illegal?

[SFTor]

Please tell me what is more Christian. To protect the unborn, or to allow their unfettered slaughter
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I do not consider all abortions unfettered slaughter. I think an early abortion is less objectionable, a late one much more so—not because I necessarily think a fetus is a fully developed human being even then (obviously), but because I think it is an undue burden for health care personnel to abort a fetus that is coming close to viability if there aren’t very strong reasons for it.

The position of the Bible seems to be ambivalent. There is for instance no compensation to be paid for the death of a child under one month old. That indicates a lesser value placed on neonates, even.

In other words it’s a grey area for me, with deeply serious implications. It is very serious. I don’t think any abortion can be taken lightly, and we must do everything we can to give mothers strong assistance through government programs (child support, day care, etc.) to remove reasons for having an abortion. We need to put our money where our mouth is. Fewer tanks and fighter planes, a few more social programs. That’s the way I see it.

What do you think of some more government programs to support mothers with children, Deacon?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

not because I necessarily think a fetus is a fully developed human being even then (obviously),

Not fully developed.

Of course, all things being equal, in 9 months, that child is going to be born a fully developed human being.

May I ask, what if your position on a ‘born’ children with a birth defect? If it is ‘severe’ enough, should that child be ‘allowed to die’ once born?

What about people in comas, like Terry Schiavo? Allowed to die because she wasn’t 'fully functioning"?

Or the sick elderly? Allowed to be pumped full of lethal morphine while they die of dehydration because they’re not capable of independent function any more?

Not fully developed. What an Orwellian twist to ‘justify’ the slaughter of a child. But I forget–it is not a ‘real’ child. It isn’t fully developed. So it doesn’t count.

 

[SFTor]

Please tell me what is more Christian. To protect the unborn, or to allow their unfettered slaughter
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Leviticus 27:6
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

(Values were given to all other age groups except infants under one month old.)

Numbers 3:15-16
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD.

(Infants under one month old are not to be counted in the census.)

These are some of the Bible passages that denote a fair amount of ambivalence about the personhood of even infants in the Bible.

 

[Caesar517]

Not fully developed. What an Orwellian twist to ‘justify’ the slaughter of a child. But I forget–it is not a ‘real’ child. It isn’t fully developed. So it doesn’t count.

It’s all just a rationalization. People see what they want to see so they can justify doing what they wish. If people want to see an unborn child as “not fully formed” and thus a candidate for slaughter, I am at a loss for how to help them see their rationalization, other than prayer. Apparently the silent scream video has an impact, although I’ve been avoiding it…

 

[SFTor]

It’s all just a rationalization. People see what they want to see so they can justify doing what they wish. If people want to see an unborn child as “not fully formed” and thus a candidate for slaughter, I am at a loss for how to help them see their rationalization, other than prayer. Apparently the silent scream video has an impact, although I’ve been avoiding it…

Caesar: do you think that we need to see actual murders of adult persons to be against murder of adult persons?

Do you think we should see footage of executions before making up our minds about capital punishment?

Based on your comments I don’t think we do.

We can discuss this without The Silent Scream. It can only serve to take our discussion into whether medical research believes that a fetus is far enough along to have a human mind to apprehend and express emotions like pain, fear, or suffering. The answer would be no.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Caesar: do you think that we need to see actual murders of adult persons to be against murder of adult persons?

Do you think we should see footage of executions before making up our minds about capital punishment?

Based on your comments I don’t think we do.

We can discuss this without The Silent Scream. It can only serve to take our discussion into whether medical research believes that a fetus is far enough along to have a human mind to apprehend and express emotions like pain, fear, or suffering. The answer would be no.

I saw the Silent screem when I was 11 years old out of my own seeking it and it cemented all my opinion and thought on abortion forever, which is the prolife stance with more attitude. My parents didn’t determine my opinion, The church didn’t determine my opinion, no one put me up to anything. So I’d say with me the movie The Silent Screem did it’s job very well. Remember I saw it totally on my own when I was 11! Just after seeing it. I was lestening to a talk show of a 50,000 watter Am readio station (1979 or so) which had a gues from Planned Parenthood on. I used my seeing the movie to pose a question to the guest about the baby who is being aborted suffering while being aborted. For that guest that was the embarassment of the century and all the calls I heard after me on that show were refering back to what I said, leaving that guest majorly tongue tied. If little 11 year old me can trip up a big bad powerfull Planned parenthood speaker just think what more right to lifers could do with we put our mind behind it, rather than accepting the statusquo.

 

[SFTor]

I saw the Silent screem when I was 11 years old out of my own seeking it and it cemented all my opinion and thought on abortion forever, which is the prolife stance with more attitude. My parents didn’t determine my opinion, The church didn’t determine my opinion, no one put me up to anything. So I’d say with me the movie The Silent Screem did it’s job very well.

Aspawloski,

There’s a reason why we keep 11-year olds away from a lot of printed and filmed material in our society. Your mind at that time is considered too young and unformed to critically evaluate what you are seeing.

I’m not sure the experience has done you any favors.

Sincerely,

Tor

 

[Lynn-D]

Caesar: do you think that we need to see actual murders of adult persons to be against murder of adult persons?

Do you think we should see footage of executions before making up our minds about capital punishment?

Based on your comments I don’t think we do.

We can discuss this without The Silent Scream. It can only serve to take our discussion into whether medical research believes that a fetus is far enough along to have a human mind to apprehend and express emotions like pain, fear, or suffering. The answer would be no.

What seems to be addressed by those quoting Leviticus is monetary compensation and not the issue of abortion as we have come to know it.

Execution for capital crimes is not the same as abortion. One is to exact punishment for a crime committed. The other the murder of an innocent child who has committed no crime. Apples and oranges!

May I ask a question of those who might put a time line on when abortion is ok and when it is not: at what moment then does God put into the body the soul? I believe it is the moment of conception and to kill the fetus is then also killing the soul. Or is that question too Catholic?

Lynn-D

 

[SFTor]

What seems to be addressed by those quoting Leviticus is monetary compensation and not the issue of abortion as we have come to know it.

Execution for capital crimes is not the same as abortion. One is to exact punishment for a crime committed. The other the murder of an innocent child who has committed no crime. Apples and oranges!

May I ask a question of those who might put a time line on when abortion is ok and when it is not: at what moment then does God put into the body the soul? I believe it is the moment of conception and to kill the fetus is then also killing the soul. Or is that question too Catholic?

Lynn-D

I am not saying that Leviticus is addressing abortion. As a matter of fact there is no explicit passage in the Bible that does. I am saying that it is an instance where the Bible places different values on people of different ages, and none at all on infants.

As for your question about “killing the soul:” it’s probably a little on the Catholic side for me, Lynn-D. In my world there is simply no way of determining whether “ensoulment” actually happens. It is a Greek concept that found its way into Christianity in the second or third century CE. In its original form it maintained that male fetuses received their souls about two months before female fetuses.

 

[Caesar517]

Caesar: do you think that we need to see actual murders of adult persons to be against murder of adult persons?

Do you think we should see footage of executions before making up our minds about capital punishment?

I don’t think a person needs to see the act to determine it’s morality; I haven’t. I do think that those who must hide from it to uphold their position have a fundamentally flawed outlook (not necessarily directed at you, I don’t know if you have seen it). Those who support abortion cannot argue in favor of their position by describing that which they support. That seems to be a problem, in my eyes.

 

[Caesar517]

If little 11 year old me can trip up a big bad powerfull Planned parenthood speaker just think what more right to lifers could do with we put our mind behind it, rather than accepting the statusquo.

:clapping: Bravo!

 

[mark_a]

Abortion is a grave sin (potentially mortal); but should it be illegal?

Here we have the case of two human beings, one of which is incapable of surviving without the body of another - should the State intervene and force the mother to abdicate rights over her own body in favour of the fetus’ right to life? Isn’t this a conflict of inalienable rights?

I’m not a biology or legal expert, but I’ve thought about this question a lot lately. Abortion is horrifying to me, but in a secular, democratic, pluralistic society the majority rules and most people do not adhere to Catholic morality. Certainly masturbation is gravely sinful (not to the same degree as Abortion), but do any of us think it should be a criminal offense? So where should the government draw the line in legislating morality for the public?

Pax Christi

There has always been and there will always will be abortion. Its a sad fact of human nature. Abortion will never cease to exist.

However, the real question is should a government whose primary job it is to protect citizens promote, procure, and finance abortion?

Of couse not.

 

[SFTor]

I don’t think a person needs to see the act to determine it’s morality; I haven’t. I do think that those who must hide from it to uphold their position have a fundamentally flawed outlook (not necessarily directed at you, I don’t know if you have seen it). Those who support abortion cannot argue in favor of their position by describing that which they support. That seems to be a problem, in my eyes.

Caesar,

I don’t think I am hiding from seeing the Silent Scream. I know a priori that a late-term abortion would be very unpleasant to watch.

I am not making my determinations on those criteria however. I support access to abortion with serious misgivings, but I am willing to pay more taxes to remove as many reasons as possible for having one. It’s a complicated world, I’m afraid.

Best,

Tor

 

[Caesar517]

Your mind at that time is considered too young and unformed to critically evaluate what you are seeing.

Be careful, you can offend somebody with a statement like that. An 11 year old has reached the age of reason and is capable of determining right from wrong, even if they can’t write a thesis paper on it.

 

[Gamera]

Abortion is a grave sin (potentially mortal); but should it be illegal?

Yes, it should be illegal to dismember a baby with foreceps. This isn’t complicated.

 

[Caesar517]

I am not making my determinations on those criteria however. I support access to abortion with serious misgivings, but I am willing to pay more taxes to remove as many reasons as possible for having one.

Ah, you think the solution is to pay more taxes and let government take over everyone’s responsibilities so they can solve everyone’s problems. After all, they do so well with the others.

It’s a complicated world, I’m afraid.

Not to those who see clearly!

 

[SFTor]

:clapping: Bravo!

Caesar:

I am afraid I disagree with you. I could have shown the same 11-year old many of the medical videos that I have created in my life, videos of heart surgeries, back surgeries and the like that would have scared the daylights out of a kid of that age.

It would not have been hard for me to launch that little one on a crusade against surgery.

Does anyone here seriously suggest that children should be shown graphic materials in order to influence them, before they have reached an age where they have sufficient reason to truly evaluate what they see?

Best,

Tor

 

[SFTor]

Ah, you think the solution is to pay more taxes and let government take over everyone’s responsibilities so they can solve everyone’s problems. After all, they do so well with the others.

Not to those who see clearly!

Caesar:

I think society has a role to play in ensuring certain basic levels of well-being for mothers and their children. I think that is what a civilized society does. I grew up in Norway, and mothers received pretty generous support, especially during the early years of child rearing. Most industrialized societies provide such support with the exception of the United States.

Just in case I missed something: does this seem un-Christian to you?

And one last thing, Caesar. In case you haven’t noticed, we are the government.

Respectfully,

Tor

 

[Caesar517]

Does anyone here seriously suggest that children should be shown graphic materials in order to influence them, before they have reached an age where they have sufficient reason to truly evaluate what they see?

Of course not. That’s doesn’t seem to be the case in aspawloski4th story.

 

[SFTor]

Of course not. That’s doesn’t seem to be the case in aspawloski4th story.

Well, Caesar, we don’t know that.

Respectfully,

Tor