Should all Catholics oppose legalizing gay marriage?

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That’s such a flagrant perversion of all available evidence that it requires no specific refutation.
I may say (unfortunately)it is a sexual matter.I dare say there would be very few marriages if sex were not an issue.Part of the problem is that sex doesn’t reallly solve the bigger issue.We may satisfy our sexual desire but then we have a whole lot of added responsibility.If we thought we didn’t need God’s help before we got married we will soon enough find out.
 
Marriage is not a sexual matter
Refusal to consumate sexually is normally grounds for legal annulment of a civil marriage.

Yes, that is right: even secular governments say it: “No sex, no marriage.”
Unconsumated proxy marriages also do not count as far as establishing marriage for purposes of citizenship or visa applications. In other words, if you’re trying to get anything out of your marital status, it can be the government’s business, and not just your spouse’s, if you haven’t consumated the marriage.

I don’t know how evidence gets more direct than that.
 
It’s two people engaging in sexual activity. I don’t even think recreational drugs should be in illegal in your home as a matter of fact
I actually agree that drugs should not be illegal. I do think, with very good reasoning - much of it pointed out by others here, homosexuality is immoral. But what confounds me is the hypocrisy of those who argue for this. As I pointed out we, the US and Canada, have huge governments that criminalize all manner of human activity. There are only two activities that seem to be outside the bounds of the law and that is abortion and gay sex. That should tell you something when society places these two things as the ultimate freedoms. This is in a very real way a Holy War, or on the side of the advocates of these freedoms and Unholy War.
 
I actually agree that drugs should not be illegal. I do think, with very good reasoning - much of it pointed out by others here, homosexuality is immoral. But what confounds me is the hypocrisy of those who argue for this. As I pointed out we, the US and Canada, have huge governments that criminalize all manner of human activity. There are only two activities that seem to be outside the bounds of the law and that is abortion and gay sex. That should tell you something when society places these two things as the ultimate freedoms. This is in a very real way a Holy War, or on the side of the advocates of these freedoms and Unholy War.
It makes perfect sense if you approach it from a utilitarian standpoint and view the chief good as maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain.

But then utilitarianism is borderline Satanic.
 
It makes perfect sense if you approach it from a utilitarian standpoint and view the chief good as maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain.

But then utilitarianism is borderline Satanic.
On the U.S. side of the border, Constitutional protection of consenting adults to engage in homosexual acts in private is grounded in a “right to privacy” that is “implied” by the other express Constitutional protections against unreasonable government intrusion. There is no express constitutional right to engage in such acts, but the legal system - i.e. the courts - have nevertheless found it to exist. This “right to privacy” arising out of the “penumbra” of the Constitution is also the legal ground upholding the Constitutional right of a woman to kill her unborn child.

Interestingly, the word “penumbra” used by the Supreme Court to conjure up a “right to privacy” comes from the Latin words paene (almost) and umbra (shadow). And I believe the first time the Supreme Court looked to the “penumbra” of “implicit” rights under the Constitution was when it struck down as unconstitutional a law limiting the sale of contraceptives. *Griswold v. Connecticut *(381 U.S. 479).

Funny how these three issues - birth control, marriage and so-called homosexual marriage - are linked in this way. Perhaps people are failing to see the connection because of the “almost shadow” that hangs over them all.

Peace,
Robert
 
Oh, I get it. You’re not here to be enlightened, you just wanna argue. Fine, I’ll bite.

For everything that exists in nature, there exists a more perfect “form” or “essence” or “nature” in which it is said to “participate” or “instantiate.” For example, the essence of a triangle is to be a closed-plane shape consisting of three straight lines. Anything with this essence has a number of properties that follow logically from it, such as having three angles that sum to 180 degrees. It is possible for a thing to participate imperfectly in an essence; for instance, if I hastily scrawl a triangle on a sheet of paper on a bumpy surface with a worn-down crayon, it is likely to have non-straight lines and thus angles that sum to something other than 180 degrees. We would not say that such a shape is not a triangle, even though it clearly does not live up to that essence. We would simply say it’s a “bad” triangle.

The badness of the triangle is not an arbitrary judgment; it is an objective fact, arising from the nature of what a triangle is and what it means to be triangular. (The nature of the triangle is an objective fact, too; we didn’t make up the definition I provided above, we discovered it).

Man, too, has an essence. For instance, it’s appropriate for me to say “human beings have two legs.” Obviously I’m not talking about each and every human being alive. Rather, I’m talking about human beings in principle. We recognize that being born with only one leg is a birth defect for precisely that reason; it cannot be a defect unless it is a failure to instantiate the essence of something.

The same principle, applied to human behavior, furnishes a basis for morality. We have various faculties; these faculties point to an end; goodness therefore consists in using our faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends, and evil in using them for some contrary purpose. For instance, we have reason; reason points toward the end of discerning truth; therefore it is good to discern truth and bad for us to, say, invent and disseminate falsehoods.

Our sexual faculty points to the end of procreation. We know this because the sexual act concludes with the emission of semen, and the emission of semen causes pregnancy. Humans have the distinct genital configuration they do because it maximizes the possibility of conception, and we have a strong sex drive so that we will have sex often and therefore maximize the possibility of conception, and it is very easy to get pregnant during a woman’s fertile period so as to maximize the possibility of conception, and so on. If our sexual faculty points to the end of procreation, and if goodness consists in using our faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends, then it is good to have sex in a manner that is conducive to procreation and not good (evil, sinful, etc.) to have sex in a manner contrary to the end of procreation. Hence the Church’s prohibition on contraception, sodomy, masturbation, etc.

The sexual act points toward the end of procreation, but obviously procreation does not end at conception. The pregnant woman is vulnerable and in need of care, and her child, once born, will also be in need of care as well as instruction and proper upbringing. The sexual act therefore necessitates a measure of commitment and obligation. It is from this fact that the institution of marriage from a natural standpoint logically arises.

Civil marriage sprang up around the natural institution of marriage, for the same reason but for slightly different justifications. The state’s interest is not in promoting morality but in promoting the common good, specifically, the care and disposition of children. Thus civil marriage provides a legal framework within which couples can discharge their duty to one another and to the community by creating new life and ensuring that that new life is cared for.

Homosexual unions are intrinsically incapable of producing children and so are never a matter of public interest – hardly worthy of the endorsement of the state.

QED.
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
Oh, I get it. You’re not here to be enlightened, you just wanna argue. Fine, I’ll bite.

For everything that exists in nature, there exists a more perfect “form” or “essence” or “nature” in which it is said to “participate” or “instantiate.” For example, the essence of a triangle is to be a closed-plane shape consisting of three straight lines. Anything with this essence has a number of properties that follow logically from it, such as having three angles that sum to 180 degrees. It is possible for a thing to participate imperfectly in an essence; for instance, if I hastily scrawl a triangle on a sheet of paper on a bumpy surface with a worn-down crayon, it is likely to have non-straight lines and thus angles that sum to something other than 180 degrees. We would not say that such a shape is not a triangle, even though it clearly does not live up to that essence. We would simply say it’s a “bad” triangle.

The badness of the triangle is not an arbitrary judgment; it is an objective fact, arising from the nature of what a triangle is and what it means to be triangular. (The nature of the triangle is an objective fact, too; we didn’t make up the definition I provided above, we discovered it).

Man, too, has an essence. For instance, it’s appropriate for me to say “human beings have two legs.” Obviously I’m not talking about each and every human being alive. Rather, I’m talking about human beings in principle. We recognize that being born with only one leg is a birth defect for precisely that reason; it cannot be a defect unless it is a failure to instantiate the essence of something.

The same principle, applied to human behavior, furnishes a basis for morality. We have various faculties; these faculties point to an end; goodness therefore consists in using our faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends, and evil in using them for some contrary purpose. For instance, we have reason; reason points toward the end of discerning truth; therefore it is good to discern truth and bad for us to, say, invent and disseminate falsehoods.

Our sexual faculty points to the end of procreation. We know this because the sexual act concludes with the emission of semen, and the emission of semen causes pregnancy. Humans have the distinct genital configuration they do because it maximizes the possibility of conception, and we have a strong sex drive so that we will have sex often and therefore maximize the possibility of conception, and it is very easy to get pregnant during a woman’s fertile period so as to maximize the possibility of conception, and so on. If our sexual faculty points to the end of procreation, and if goodness consists in using our faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends, then it is good to have sex in a manner that is conducive to procreation and not good (evil, sinful, etc.) to have sex in a manner contrary to the end of procreation. Hence the Church’s prohibition on contraception, sodomy, masturbation, etc.

The sexual act points toward the end of procreation, but obviously procreation does not end at conception. The pregnant woman is vulnerable and in need of care, and her child, once born, will also be in need of care as well as instruction and proper upbringing. The sexual act therefore necessitates a measure of commitment and obligation. It is from this fact that the institution of marriage from a natural standpoint logically arises.

Civil marriage sprang up around the natural institution of marriage, for the same reason but for slightly different justifications. The state’s interest is not in promoting morality but in promoting the common good, specifically, the care and disposition of children. Thus civil marriage provides a legal framework within which couples can discharge their duty to one another and to the community by creating new life and ensuring that that new life is cared for.

Homosexual unions are intrinsically incapable of producing children and so are never a matter of public interest – hardly worthy of the endorsement of the state.

QED.
This is very well said. Nice job! :tiphat:
 
The answer is yes. We should oppose it in the polling station, at the dinner table, with our lives, with our wallet, with our pen, with great charity and firmness.

It’s like saying should you stop a friend from drinking and driving, only more serious than even that.
 
Many catholics, including many priests and bishops, strongly oppose the legalization of gay marriage. I understand (or at least I think I do) the churches teaching on homosexual acts as a sin, and I agree with that teaching. However, I don’t see how this necessitates opposing the legalization of gay marriage as many Catholics have led me to believe.

Marriage in my eyes (and the eyes of every Catholic) is a sacrament, instituted by Jesus, that can only be received by a man and woman, in which God forms an unbreakable union of the two.

“Marriage”, in the government’s eyes, is a legal contract between two consenting adults that extends certain rights and privileges to the two people entering the contract. Privileges such as the right to file a joint tax return, the right to make medical decisions for the other, the right of easy transfer of property upon one’s death.

I don’t see why the governments definition of marriage should be any different, and also why that definition can’t apply to two men or two women.

For the government to define marriage in any sort of religious way (e.g. the way the Catholic church defines marriage) would undermine some of the basics tenets on which the U.S. governmental system was founded, namely freedom of religion.

In light of my arguments above, I am looking for a defense of the idea that the Catholic Church, and all Catholics in general, should oppose legalization of gay marriage. Thank you for your responses.
Inadvertently or otherwise, homosexual “unions” or “marriages” - mimick or mock what is spiritually being targeted…catholicism and christianity alike.

Catholics and all christians should not only oppose but wake up to the onslaught of Lucifer.

When will we get it through our skulls that we are in a spiritual war?!
 
There is no natural law to man in reality.Man is capable of doing anything without feeling any regards to a natural law.Since we’re born with OS we have to learn what is right behavior.
 
There is no natural law to man in reality.Man is capable of doing anything without feeling any regards to a natural law.Since we’re born with OS we have to learn what is right behavior.
I’m intrigue by your statement. Please elaborate, most especially that “there is no natural law in reality”.
 
For the government to define marriage in any sort of religious way (e.g. the way the Catholic church defines marriage) would undermine some of the basics tenets on which the U.S. governmental system was founded, namely freedom of religion.

In light of my arguments above, I am looking for a defense of the idea that the Catholic Church, and all Catholics in general, should oppose legalization of gay marriage. Thank you for your responses.
Many people here have given you the Church teaching that makes it clear that Catholics are obligated to oppose same-sex “marriage”. I would like to address three problems with your premise statements above.
  1. The US government since it’s inception, as well as that of virtually all governments in Western civilization, already has a definition of marriage that is one man - one woman. This isn’t a case where we want to restrict the definition of marriage to mean something it hasn’t meant before. Marriage isn’t being re-defined as one man - one woman. That’s already the definition.
  2. Marriage as one man - one woman is not the “Catholic definition,” nor is it defined that way because of religion. The fact that the existing definition of marriage coincides with the Catholic view of marriage is incidental from a civil standpoint. To say that that is a violation of Church and state is the same as saying there can be no laws against stealing because of the 7th Commandment.
  3. Freedom of religion means that all Americans may practice thier religion without government interference. Is there a religion in the US that says that marriage must be two men or two women? Not to my knowledge. So, how is one man - one woman keeping anyone from practicing his/her religion? If someone belonged to such a religion he/she might have a case that current law keeps him/her from practicing his/her religion. The problem with this argument is that there already exist religions in the US that say that marriage must be one man - multiple women. Would those religions not have as good of a case, if not more so, than any religion claiming a teaching defining marriage as two men or two women?
 
There is no natural law to man in reality.Man is capable of doing anything without feeling any regards to a natural law.Since we’re born with OS we have to learn what is right behavior.
You’d be hard-pressed to find a primate researcher who would swallow this as stated.
animalbehavior.org/ABSNews/1174630239/index_html

The truth is, a human who does not feel any regards to natural law is an exception who, if extrapolated to the whole human race, would make human society impossible. A human who never considers how his behavior impacts others is like a human that never talks. It happens, this individual can be accomodated by the efforts of the group, but it is not the norm.

Last year Marc Hauser, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, proposed in his book “Moral Minds” that the brain has a genetically shaped mechanism for acquiring moral rules, a universal moral grammar similar to the neural machinery for learning language. In another recent book, “Primates and Philosophers,” the primatologist Frans de Waal defends against philosopher critics his view that the roots of morality can be seen in the social behavior of monkeys and apes.

What philosophers and biologists argue about is not whether humans are a species to whom a sense of morality comes naturally, but whether the human race is absolutely unique in this regard.
 
How about civil unions?

PS adding that marriage is between a man and a woman is defining marriage, in the same sense that the Council of Trent defined the books in the Bible.
 
PS adding that marriage is between a man and a woman is defining marriage, in the same sense that the Council of Trent defined the books in the Bible.
No, because prior to the Council of Trent there were different collections of the Bible.

Prior to the first state’s attempt to codify same-sex “marriage”, there was not different versions of marriage being recognized under the law. Stating that marriage is between a man and a woman is not defining it. It is simply codifying a reality that no one questioned until very, very recently.

It’s more like updating the copyright laws to make it clear that pirating videos via the internet is a crime too even if the internet wasn’t invented when the law was originally written.

Video pirating - “Of course it’s stealing. Now we have it in writing.”
DOMA and similar state resolutions - “Of course it is wrong for two people of the same sex to attempt marriage. Now we have it in writing.”
 
How about civil unions?
I split my response to your post because the two points are very different.

The problem with civil unions is that states and even cities define them differently.

Where a civil union is defined as any two unmarried persons (male/male, female/female, male/female,parent/child, siblings, roommates) entering into a social and civil contract for the purpose of owning property together, covering each other under insurance policies, etc., I don’t think the Church has a problem with it except as a possible opportunity for other immoral acts.

In states where civil unions are a special right of same-sex partners to simulate a marriage, the Church is opposed.
 
Many catholics, including many priests and bishops, strongly oppose the legalization of gay marriage. I understand (or at least I think I do) the churches teaching on homosexual acts as a sin, and I agree with that teaching. However, I don’t see how this necessitates opposing the legalization of gay marriage as many Catholics have led me to believe.

Marriage in my eyes (and the eyes of every Catholic) is a sacrament, instituted by Jesus, that can only be received by a man and woman, in which God forms an unbreakable union of the two.

**“Marriage”, in the government’s eyes, is a legal contract between two consenting adults that extends certain rights and privileges to the two people entering the contract. **<—That’s NOT the definition of marriage in the govt’s eyes. Privileges such as the right to file a joint tax return, the right to make medical decisions for the other, the right of easy transfer of property upon one’s death.

I don’t see why the governments definition of marriage should be any different, and also why that definition can’t apply to two men or two women.

For the government to define marriage in any sort of religious way (e.g. the way the Catholic church defines marriage) would undermine some of the basics tenets on which the U.S. governmental system was founded, namely freedom of religion.

In light of my arguments above, I am looking for a defense of the idea that the Catholic Church, and all Catholics in general, should oppose legalization of gay marriage. Thank you for your responses.
The existing definition of marriage in the eyes of the govt has always been specifically for men and women, WITH certain exceptions…like incestuous marriage between a man and a woman. It’s NOT been as you describe…merely between “two consenting adults” even when those adults are same sex. Gay activists are trying to change the existing definition into what you describe and most people are against.

It’s not just Catholics who are trying to maintain marriage as it is. Most Christians want to keep marriage as it’s always been. Even most of the more secular types want marriage to remain as is.

Walk into the average bar on a Saturday night, and almost nobody wants to make gay marriage legal, which is about the same as you’d find in any church (Catholic or other) on a Sunday morning. The difference is that Christians would be a lot more civil with their answers than the bar crowd.

The reason it should be opposed by all Christians is obvious, homosexual behavior is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments and homosexual marriage would include homosexual behavior. It would also add legitimacy to something which the Bible condemns.
 
Walk into the average bar on a Saturday night, and almost nobody wants to make gay marriage legal, which is about the same as you’d find in any church (Catholic or other) on a Sunday morning. The difference is that Christians would be a lot more civil with their answers than the bar crowd.
gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx

Actually, it appears that you are wrong. It seems that most American’s are in favor of gay marriage.
 
Many catholics, including many priests and bishops, strongly oppose the legalization of gay marriage. I understand (or at least I think I do) the churches teaching on homosexual acts as a sin, and I agree with that teaching. However, I don’t see how this necessitates opposing the legalization of gay marriage as many Catholics have led me to believe.

Marriage in my eyes (and the eyes of every Catholic) is a sacrament, instituted by Jesus, that can only be received by a man and woman, in which God forms an unbreakable union of the two.

“Marriage”, in the government’s eyes, is a legal contract between two consenting adults that extends certain rights and privileges to the two people entering the contract. Privileges such as the right to file a joint tax return, the right to make medical decisions for the other, the right of easy transfer of property upon one’s death.

I don’t see why the governments definition of marriage should be any different, and also why that definition can’t apply to two men or two women.

For the government to define marriage in any sort of religious way (e.g. the way the Catholic church defines marriage) would undermine some of the basics tenets on which the U.S. governmental system was founded, namely freedom of religion.

In light of my arguments above, I am looking for a defense of the idea that the Catholic Church, and all Catholics in general, should oppose legalization of gay marriage. Thank you for your responses.
👍

Does being Catholic factor into the makeup of one’s thoughts?

Of course, it does.

So, being Catholic constitutes one’s bias, one’s opinion.

Good.

So, a Catholic, as a citizen, giving an opinion, on political legislation, could never, ever, under any circumstances, or specious arguments, or any dictum, or whatever, support, in any measure, homosexual marriage - because, to do so, is not to think Catholic.

This, of course, may or may not be true for those who are not Catholic.

But, for Catholics, any legalization of homosexual activity is anathema to the will of Christ.

Any homosexual activity.

🙂
 
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