Just to be super clear about my own case, mine isn’t “know for a fact” – mine is in the category of “maybe”. My childhood denomination permits three formulas on paper, one of which is the now-declared-invalid form. This is why I’m seeking conditional baptism only – not absolute baptism. In my case it’s a matter of reasonable doubt, not absolute certainty.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply which category you were in. I’ve read of others that know theirs were invalid and hitting the same wall that you are, though.
Right. I remember how troubling it was for you, as you described it a while back.
Hmm… “solid evidence” or “it is plausible”…? No need to answer – those two claims seem somewhat at odds with each other, you know?
It’s a good point. Would it be fair to look at it in the same way that we look at marriages performed by Catholic clerics – that, if all due diligence indicated (at the time of the evaluation of the baptism, not the baptism itself) that all the proper requirements of form were met, that we would consider the sacrament valid, unless and until something arises that causes us to ponder whether that was not the case?
Right. That’s a separate issue, and it’s of a completely different nature.
It’s because it sets up a situation in which we would a priori presume invalidity. That’s the issue here – what our default starting position is. (And, it’s not “you did it wrong.”)
No worries, I know you have good intentions.
I just wanted to make sure I didn’t give a false impression, haha.In a case like this I can see a reasonable reason to ask for conditional baptism. I think the challenge is to do conditional baptisms of all clerical candidates or anyone baptized outside of the Catholic Church.
Yep, a valid trinitarian baptism is valid regardless. However, anyone familiar with Protestant methods of baptism is aware that there are issues with how it is performed, and not just the words.
)That is a very broad blanket statement that implies more than facts support. There is not a single method that all protestants use to baptize and I know of no overarching issues common to most, if not all baptisms, outside of the Church.
I think the challenge is how to identify where the issues might lie. You could ask current clergy, but there have been thousands of clergy who have died or left ministry since the 1960s. While I can’t say for certain, I suspect many of the more “creative” forms stem from clergy that were formed during a certain period when there was an openness to liturgical experimentation. Many of those formed in that era would have already died or would be at or near retirement. So if you can’t contact them and the records say that these certain people were baptized by them then how do you determine which, if any, were and weren’t validly baptized?
Form and the words do matter; the words used are a manifestation of intent. But I’d be surprised if there is any member of the clergy that hasn’t flubbed something. While I try to go slowly and am very intentional when pronouncing the words of baptism there are always things that can throw you off. This is especially true when you have someone who is using a language different from their native tongue. If they mispronounced a word would that invalidate the sacrament even if the intent was what the Church intended? I certainly believe that we shouldn’t ad lib, but I don’t think God ever intended us to treat it like an incantation where absolute precision is required or it doesn’t “work”.
Given the difficulties my bishop’s secretary has at times getting RSVPs to diocesan events I wouldn’t be quite so certain! Nonetheless, assuming surveys were sent out, presumably asking “have you ever used the formula “we baptise…”” I would expect almost every single response to be “no”. Granted, there may well be some but I would expect that any such survey would tell us what we already know and that’s that it’s not a widespread problem. How do we know this - because, for the most part, priests do actually do what they’re expected to do. Marriages are a good example of this; every now and again some priest (or deacon) won’t have done the paperwork right, but that’s far from a common occurrence. I’m obviously not saying that sacramental formulas aren’t important or that bishops should ignore clear evidence of an issue but at the same time, absent such evidence it becomes a solution in search of a problem.
That claim could be laid at the feet of more than a few people! Again though, for the most part priests (and others) do follow the teachings of the Church. Still, nobody ever said that ours wasn’t a messy Church and every now and again something like this comes up.
Such is the nature of Protestantism which is why the Church only recognises baptisms from those denominations which use the correct formulas and methods.
My baptism was from one such approved denomination. It was invalid in more ways than one. I had to be baptized and confirmed this past summer.
Hmm… so, it’s not any evidence that your baptism in particular is invalid. Just that the possibility of invalid baptism exists in general. I don’t think I’d call that “solid evidence of plausible invalidity”. At best, it’s “no evidence of invalidity, although it’s logically possible.”
So my priest and bishop are too rigid? You’re saying they’re wrong?
Ultimately the Church only cares about helping those who fall away because of rigidity, it seems. Those who fall away because they want to be Catholic and see nothing but laxity are left to fend for themselves.
Yeah, this does seem to be the current trend. The only people who can possibly need help are those who interpret things more loosely. Those who try to follow a teaching as-written are “rigid” and can go straight to hell (or at least be abandoned and mocked in this life). Only one group can possibly be deserving of compassion and assistance.
Yep.
Lol I’ll be sure to tell them you think so. I’m sure they’ll take it very seriously.
Exactly. I have a friend who is a very traditional Catholic. Very nice guy, just very uncompromising in his faith. He’s treated like a pariah for his views among fellow Catholics. Meanwhile I’ve seen those with differing views on sexuality and other things coddled by priests and parish communities.