Should atheism be illegal?

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We can see how the Father deals with idolatry in the Garden of Eden, or how Jesus deals with it in the Gospels. Jesus revealed the truth to Israel, and when they rejected it, he ultimately punished them when he ascended to be seated at the right hand of the Father. He pleaded with them to accept his mercy, and when they rejected it, he punished them through the military might of the Roman Empire.

God the Father behaved in a similar way in the Garden of Eden. They had Free Will, so they had the ability to choose evil. But the ability to choose evil does not give the right to choose evil. So they were punished and banished.
So people have the right to punish others on Gods (your God) behalf for non-belief.
The Jews practiced punishment of idolatry throughout the Old Testament days, and the Catholics did as soon as they had a legitimate role in government, and so had the legal authority. In 1 Timothy 1:8-11, Paul advocates the same (bolds below are added).
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What you’re talking about could be roughly compared to a religious community, which has the right to regulate the conduct of those who *choose *to be part of it. Why should people who don’t profess any faith be forced to live by such rules (aside from murder, theft etc, which don’t require a religious foundation to be held as true) How does it negatively effect your ability to practice your beliefs (it *can, *for eg hatespeech laws, but why must it)
Paul clearly is referring to human use of the law, for he says, “if one uses it legitimately,” rather than “if God uses it,” and we know he was referring to the Old Covenant Law, because all of this is a reference to people “desiring to be teachers of the law,” (v. 7). The term “teachers of the law,” is only used in the NT to refer to teachers of the Old Covenant Law. The ceremonies and rituals of the Old Covenant Law are fulfilled and so no longer apply. The civil law is maintained, but filled now with mercy, in its application. The moral law is also maintained- it is eternal.

The law, according to Paul, should still be wielded in the case of the “godless,” the “unholy,” and people who hold to “whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God.” That doesn’t only include heresy- it pretty much defines it.
Mohammad clearly calls for a holy war against all infidels. So what?
Non-believers can often be like suicide bombers. They spread the devil’s lies, even though they have good intentions, and thus they tear people away from the faith. They themselves are often going to hell (not always), and they are taking others with them. It’s like suicide-bombing hellfire rather than physical fire.
If an external thing (the influence of another) can be the deciding factor in someones choice, then we don’t really have free will.
 
Why does it need to be related to communism?
Well, fact is that Communism proposes much of the same as Atheism - it denies a Godly Kingdom, to create a “manly” one here on earth - hence the Soviet Union. Atheists pledged allegiance to the “state”…the “state” became their God, their religion. They barred all other forms of religious celebration, tradition, acknowledgement, especially in the public square - just like we are facing with the Atheist desires here in our own country.

We are being told that those of us have faith, are not allowed to practice or show it in public…for fear of “being intolerant” to those who have no faith, etc.

How many times will Michael Newdow try to stop “under God” from being said in the pledge?

How many times will historical monuments, like the Cross on Mount Soledad in San Diego, be threated, because they “offend” those with no faith?

How many plaques of the Ten Commandments have to be removed so we don’t “offend” those who aren’t Judeo-Christian?

If you can prove to me that Atheist’s don’t desire that the world change to suit “their” non-belief…then I will say that maybe it doesn’t have to be related to anything…but sorry, all I see if that they expect that, THEY, as the minority, are the one’s who should dictate.
 
The fact that the churches tended to support established class structures as God-given and that spiritual beliefs generally oppose the purely materialistic idealogy of communism are some of the reasons religion was oppressed in such regimes. However I think today libertrianism has a much more in common with atheism because they both view the rights of ‘self’ as primary. Libertarianism = I am not responsible for the well being of others, all I must be compelled to do is respect others freedoms. Atheism = I have no responsibility to a God, or to obey his laws.
 
So people have the right to punish others on Gods (your God) behalf for non-belief.
Yes.
What you’re talking about could be roughly compared to a religious community, which has the right to regulate the conduct of those who *choose *to be part of it. Why should people who don’t profess any faith be forced to live by such rules (aside from murder, theft etc, which don’t require a religious foundation to be held as true) How does it negatively effect your ability to practice your beliefs (it *can, *for eg hatespeech laws, but why must it)
First of all, I disagree with you that theft and murder don’t require a religious law to be seen as immoral. The end of the Christian era has seen the legalization of euthanasia and abortion in democratic countries and mass murders, “cultural revolutions,” in Communist countries.

Abortion was illegal and therefore relatively rare while law had a Christian religious basis.

The lack of religious law condones any immorality the “will of the people” may devise. But also there is the fact that when even the ideology of atheism is legal, it can and will make converts. Which can damn people. This is an incredibly vicious method of legal assault in the West, even if those doing the attacking don’t think that what they’re doing is bad.
 
Mohammad clearly calls for a holy war against all infidels. So what?
Good point. He was either hearing a demon or was making it up. Or had psychological issues. The Koran is not God’s Word.
If an external thing (the influence of another) can be the deciding factor in someones choice, then we don’t really have free will.
That’s like saying that because we have laws against speeding, we don’t have free will. Free Will is an internal function of humanity that cannot be controlled from the outside. People have an ability to do whatever they want, because they have free will. That doesn’t mean they have either the legal or moral right to do whatever they want.

adam in ohio [/quote said:
If one is forced to believe in God, does one really believe?

No. But at least this prevents him spreading his false ideology to others, and thus harming their souls.
 
That’s a very scary idea ; that God gives you the right to punish others on his behalf, for breaking moral laws that don’t affect you, or your right to practice religion.
 
[So people have the right to punish others on Gods (your God) behalf for non-belief.]

Yes.
Look at your examples: in neither of them was a human agent responsible for meting out punishment. Revenge is God’s prerogative, is it not? Where do you see Joe Catholic getting to step into God’s shoes?

Out of curiosity, what kind of punishment do you consider appropriate for unbelief?

Moving on, remember that Catholicism no longer has any kind of political power (and most Catholics are sensible enough to realize that some pretty disgusting things happened when it did possess such power), and that you are not only a member of the Church, you are (probably) a member of a secular society which does not give one religion preference over another. You have no more right to punish a ‘heathen’ than said non-Catholic has a right to punish you for being, in his or her eyes, a pernicious idolater.

And if you think a theocracy is the solution, how would you go about ensuring that it’s an orthodox – or ‘Leif-Erikson-orthodox’ – Catholic theocracy instead of a Pentecostal, Baptist, Muslim, or Hindu government? You can’t, and some other religions have a much better shot at actually being able to accomplish such a goal. Following your model, they’d likely not look too kindly on your Catholicism, and hold themselves perfectly justified in punishing you the same way you want to punish them. Is the gamble worth it? Leo XIII’s Libertas may sound great to you on paper, but there’s no way on earth it’s workable.
 
My vote, no. I don’t think atheism should be illegal. No one should be compelled to think one thing or another, even if such thoughts are disagreeable. The law is there to protect us from the actions of others , not their thoughts.

Besides which, if you hold that atheism is illogical or evil, then making it illegal only prevents discussion which ultimately may lead to better understanding (and hopefully conversion of minds). Only by being able to express one’s thoughts and by engaging with others in constructive debate can one see the flaws in one’s own thinking, or in others’.
 
Atheism should absolutely not be illegal. How would you feel if Christianity was suddenly illegal? First off, the United States is thankfully a democracy and one of its main tenents is the freedom of religion. Just because you think it is a sin, does not make it illegal. Second, it is just an absolutely terrible idea, but as we do live in America, you have a right to speak as you wish–just as I have a right to believe in what I choose.

Matt
 
That’s a very scary idea ; that God gives you the right to punish others on his behalf,
No, for I see a parent who spanks a child as also doing this on God’s behalf. Bringing the child up in a loving manner is to the glory of God, and is doing God’s will.

Similarly, a government punishing a murderer is doing so on God’s behalf. It’s on society’s behalf too. The act is God’s will and thus is on God’s behalf, and is done in humility to him and his moral laws. It also is done to help other people, just as the spanking of a child is.
for breaking moral laws that don’t affect you, or your right to practice religion.
These rights do affect many people. When an atheist spreads his atheistic beliefs, either by example or by word of mouth, his actions can potentially destroy souls in an eternity of hellfire. That is worse for the victim who falls for these lies than being murdered is.
 
Look at your examples: in neither of them was a human agent responsible for meting out punishment. Revenge is God’s prerogative, is it not? Where do you see Joe Catholic getting to step into God’s shoes?
Is giving a murderer a term in prison a vengeful act that steps into God’s shoes?

The Lord told Israelites, in the Old Testament, to kill idolaters. Whenever they failed to enforce bans on idolatry in the land, the Bible says that the Lord was angered. He certainly acted through human agents, and we know that the Lord was just in establishing this law.

It is clear from the New Testament that it is God’s will that the civil law still apply in at least these following situations:
"1 Timothy 1:8-11:
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers- and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
We still use the Old Covenant civil law’s mandate to punish murderers and thieves, though we temper the punishment with mercy, as Jesus advised that we do because we live in a time of grace. The decision to no longer punish witchcraft, sexual immorality, idolatry, or now murder in many cases (abortion and euthenasia) is a decision that has been made in a secular, non-Christian environment, since the end of the Medieval Ages and partly causing the end of the Medieval Ages. It is a decision that has made these evil behaviors become legitimate in the eyes of mainstream society.

Just as in the Old Testament, when evil was allowed to exist in Israel, it flourished, so in our nations, evil has been allowed to exist and it consequently flourishes. Now, many people cannot even see these things as bad anymore.

The New Testament does not talk often about civil law. That is because the Church at that time did not have political power, so there wasn’t much point. They had other concerns, so they mostly wrote about those other things that more directly related to them.

However, where the New Testament does talk about civil law, it tends to uphold the Old Covenant Law, while simultaneously teaching that when it is practiced, it should be practiced with mercy. In John 8, when the teachers of the law said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” Jesus said, “If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

He did not tell them that their law was to be rescinded. Indeed, Jesus said in Luke 16:17 that, “It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.” But the Lord showed humans how to apply the law with mercy.

That applies to our laws against murderers and thieves. We should apply a law- Jesus wasn’t teaching anarchy. But the law should be applied with mercy.

This goes also for witches, the sexually immoral, abortionists and idolaters in our nations. There should be a law against those that practice these destructive behaviors, destroying either souls or bodies of other people, and sometimes both simultaneously, through these acts. The laws against these behaviors should be tempered with mercy, but they should exist. Our nations are experiencing the tragic effects of the lack of these laws all around us.
Out of curiosity, what kind of punishment do you consider appropriate for unbelief?
The law the Lord gave us, which must be just because he gave it to us, is death. However, as I said, it should be tempered with mercy.

That is why, in the Medieval Ages, only 2% of those who were charged with heresy before the Inquisition were sentenced to death. The rest that were found guilty were banished, scourged or fined.

Similarly, before the 15th century, very few witches were killed in Medieval society. The witch hunting spree went on between the 1450 and 1750, and was primarily exercised in Protestant countries. The Catholic Church generally opposed it, though often Catholics did carry it out on a local level.

Also, the kinds of evidence used in the late Medieval Ages to accuse people of witchcraft were pretty appalling.

But there were laws against sexual immorality, abortion, idolatry, and witchcraft. They were also often applied with mercy, rather than the full penalty being exacted. That is the ideal situation, in my view. A situation where the law is established, but is tempered with a thick dose of mercy. The law needs to condemn and punish what is evil and uphold and support what is good.

It is when the law was separated from God’s Law and became the law of the will of the people that all of these forms of wickedness that today have become mainstream became legal and often socially acceptable forms of behavior.

It’s only natural that when laws against evil practices are removed, those practices will spread and become more socially acceptable. It’s both natural and observable.
 
No, for I see a parent who spanks a child as also doing this on God’s behalf. Bringing the child up in a loving manner is to the glory of God, and is doing God’s will.
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Children are in the care of their parents. They are responsible for them and can bring them up with the values they choose until 18. Other adults are not in your care, nor the Catholic Church’s.

Children also don’t go to jail for misbehaving…
Similarly, a government punishing a murderer is doing so on God’s behalf. It’s on society’s behalf too. The act is God’s will and thus is on God’s behalf, and is done in humility to him and his moral laws. It also is done to help other people, just as the spanking of a child is.
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A murderer has commited an offence against another person, violating their freedom and right to life. These are things we can all agree on, because if I acknowledge my own desire to live, then through reason I must acknowledge others. It does not require belief in a God.
These rights do affect many people. When an atheist spreads his atheistic beliefs, either by example or by word of mouth, his actions can potentially destroy souls in an eternity of hellfire. That is worse for the victim who falls for these lies than being murdered is.
If this is true and people go to hell (as you put it) by falling under the influence of another, then we don’t really have free will. However, If somebody *chooses *to believe something then the ideas of another are nothing more than a ‘temptation’.
 
Moving on, remember that Catholicism no longer has any kind of political power (and most Catholics are sensible enough to realize that some pretty disgusting things happened when it did possess such power), and that you are not only a member of the Church, you are (probably) a member of a secular society which does not give one religion preference over another. You have no more right to punish a ‘heathen’ than said non-Catholic has a right to punish you for being, in his or her eyes, a pernicious idolater.
Agreed. The law of the land is unjust in many ways, but it is not my place to rebel against it. Paul and Peter are very clear in the Epistles that we are to submit to the government authorities that rule.
And if you think a theocracy is the solution, how would you go about ensuring that it’s an orthodox – or ‘Leif-Erikson-orthodox’ – Catholic theocracy instead of a Pentecostal, Baptist, Muslim, or Hindu government? You can’t, and some other religions have a much better shot at actually being able to accomplish such a goal. Following your model, they’d likely not look too kindly on your Catholicism, and hold themselves perfectly justified in punishing you the same way you want to punish them. Is the gamble worth it? Leo XIII’s Libertas may sound great to you on paper, but there’s no way on earth it’s workable.
I also find it very hard to imagine this being established in our countries, in view of our Western culture. However, I know that the Lord transformed the entire pagan Roman Empire by the power of his Spirit, and changed the entire known world into a collection of Catholic kingdoms. So I hesitate to put limits on God.

I agree with you that non-Catholics, and in fact even most Catholics too, probably, would not like to hear this kind of message. On the other hand, for centuries now we’ve observed laws slipping further and further away from Christian moral standards. This is the pattern of history and it’s continuing in our own day. I don’t know of any way to stop it except the nations turning back to the absolute truth that exists in God’s laws, and reestablishing Catholicism as state religion.
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mattyc4:
Atheism should absolutely not be illegal. How would you feel if Christianity was suddenly illegal?
Absolutely horrid, of course. But Christianity saves souls, and atheism kills them. So Christianity has a legitimate role in society and atheism does not.
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mattyc4:
First off, the United States is thankfully a democracy and one of its main tenents is the freedom of religion. Just because you think it is a sin, does not make it illegal.
I know; I’m saying it should be.
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mattyc4:
Second, it is just an absolutely terrible idea, but as we do live in America, you have a right to speak as you wish–just as I have a right to believe in what I choose.
Blame God- he’s the one that established the moral and civil Law I’m talking about in the first place. But this Law he created exists to save and preserve souls, to nurture them and bless them, and as he wrote in the Old Testament, when his law isn’t followed, we shall inherit a curse, but when it is followed, we shall inherit a blessing.

In the Medieval Ages, the Law was upheld, though often modified to be more merciful, and as a consequence, a wave of faith sustained a firm Catholic faith throughout the Western world for a thousand years.

Then people rejected the Law, wrote it out of their legal codes, and the lands inherited a curse of unbelief and all its negative ramifications that has swept throughout our civilization.
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Prometheus1974:
My vote, no. I don’t think atheism should be illegal. No one should be compelled to think one thing or another, even if such thoughts are disagreeable. The law is there to protect us from the actions of others , not their thoughts.
Why? Because thoughts are harmless?

They are not harmless, according to the Bible.
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Prometheus1974:
Besides which, if you hold that atheism is illogical or evil, then making it illegal only prevents discussion which ultimately may lead to better understanding (and hopefully conversion of minds). Only by being able to express one’s thoughts and by engaging with others in constructive debate can one see the flaws in one’s own thinking, or in others’.
I believe that a person struggling with unbelief should feel free to confide his or her doubts to a priest, expressing them as struggles in faith. There should be no condemnation for that. If the person says outright that they no longer believe any of it, though, then there lies a problem, for the person has decided that the religion is untrue. That is unbelief, and punishable. But if the person is still trying to believe, it’s only a struggle on the way, and the person should be free to get help for this.
 
Children are in the care of their parents.
Yes, and parents have a responsibility to God to take care of them in this way.
They are responsible for them and can bring them up with the values they choose until 18.
That’s our government’s law. Not God’s Law.

I’ll submit to it because God explicitly and justly condemns rebellion, but that doesn’t make it right.
Other adults are not in your care, nor the Catholic Church’s.
The adults in the country are in the government’s care, and the government has a responsibility to protect them. What I’m suggesting is that the government should be implementing godly civil laws, not that I should.
Children also don’t go to jail for misbehaving…
Thankfully. 😛

I’m not a complete maniac ;).
A murderer has commited an offence against another person, violating their freedom and right to life. These are things we can all agree on, because if I acknowledge my own desire to live, then through reason I must acknowledge others. It does not require belief in a God.
Well, I agree with you that Christian morality is extremely reasonable. However, without a belief in a God, there is no reason to see either your life or anyone else’s life as having intrinsic value. It could just be a blob of atoms stuck together, and there’s nothing wrong therefore in doing away with it. It’ll ultimately wind up coming to nothing anyway, so you’d just be speeding up the process.

Scientists agree that the fetus is human life. People today feel justified in destroying it anyway. This form of murder, and euthenasia, were not legal in the Medieval Ages.
If this is true and people go to hell (as you put it) by falling under the influence of another, then we don’t really have free will. However, If somebody *chooses *to believe something then the ideas of another are nothing more than a ‘temptation’.
Hard drugs are nothing more than a temptation.
 
The adults in the country are in the government’s care, and the government has a responsibility to protect them. What I’m suggesting is that the government should be implementing godly civil laws, not that I should.
No, they are not… we do not have an extensive nanny state in an economy influenced by supply-side policies. Unfortunately, the government’s care will not take care of people. There is no extensive managerial, welfare, or nanny state to take care of the poor as in the case of Sweden and Denmark.
 
That’s our government’s law. Not God’s Law.

I’ll submit to it because God explicitly and justly condemns rebellion, but that doesn’t make it right.
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Well he doesn’t strike them dead with a lightning bolt. Perhaps people’s freedom to excercise choice with regards to their own minds and bodies means something…
I’m not a complete maniac ;).
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Close enough.
Well, I agree with you that Christian morality is extremely reasonable. However, without a belief in a God, there is no reason to see either your life or anyone else’s life as having intrinsic value. It could just be a blob of atoms stuck together, and there’s nothing wrong therefore in doing away with it. It’ll ultimately wind up coming to nothing anyway, so you’d just be speeding up the process.
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We don’t need to demonstrate a supernatural value to human life. I find this statement curious anyway. Christianity basically states that our ‘intrinsic’ value is only found our ability to glorify God. If he commanded everyone to kill left handed people in his name, simply because it pleased him, this would be ‘right’ and ‘just’.

If I acknowledge my desire to live, then I must acknowledge anothers, even if we are all just a collection of atoms and none of it matters.
Scientists agree that the fetus is human life. People today feel justified in destroying it anyway. This form of murder, and euthenasia, were not legal in the Medieval Ages.
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You will always have a point with abortion. Abortion is not consistent with respecting the lives of others.
Hard drugs are nothing more than a temptation.
Hard drugs are addictive enough to take away a persons ability to make a free choice, and they are strongly psychoactive/intoxicating. Their use presents a threat to other people. They are illegal because of that, not because it’s ‘immoral’ to get high.
 
No, they are not… we do not have an extensive nanny state in an economy influenced by supply-side policies. Unfortunately, the government’s care will not take care of people. There is no extensive managerial, welfare, or nanny state to take care of the poor as in the case of Sweden and Denmark.
I think that you’re talking about something different from what I’m talking about. I was saying that the government has a responsibility to protect adults. I wasn’t saying it should control every facet of their lives.
 
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