Should broke people receive health care?

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Ahead of people who didn’t leave? 🤷
And his leaving justified sentencing him to death by pushing him back on the list?
(Should my Dad have waited around to see whether he wanted the kidney, before taking it? Or just take him at his word, that the American system is so much better, who needs you?)
Have I made a mistake here? I was under the impression this is an American Catholic forum. Is it actually a Canadian Catholic forum?

If it is, I apologize – I would never go on a Canadian Catholic forum, criticize Canada and talk down to them as you talk down to us Americans.
Or on purpose, either!! 🙂
Either way, he’d be dead, eh?😉
 
And his leaving justified sentencing him to death by pushing him back on the list?
Vern, you’re being obtuse. Probably on purpose, but for the benefit of the lurkers - again - he left, of his own accord. He drove to the United States in his own car; nobody forced him to switch systems in the middle of the process.

He was not “sentenced to death” - he made a free and willing choice to try the American health care system, thinking it would be better.
Have I made a mistake here? I was under the impression this is an American Catholic forum. Is it actually a Canadian Catholic forum?
Wrong, it’s a world-wide Catholic forum.
If it is, I apologize – I would never go on a Canadian Catholic forum, criticize Canada and talk down to them as you talk down to us Americans.
No, but you don’t mind telling lies about the Canadian medical system on a world-wide forum, or making it seem like the Canadian system is deliberately out to kill people.
 
Vern, you’re being obtuse.
No, you’re being obtuse.

This is your story. You told us abour a man who, afraid his number wouldn’t come up, tried to get treatment in the US, couldn’t pay for it, and was punished by being sent to the bottom of the waiting list in Canada, and died.
Probably on purpose, but for the benefit of the lurkers - again - he left, of his own accord. He drove to the United States in his own car; nobody forced him to switch systems in the middle of the process.
And that justified sentencing him to death? Without even the benefit of a trial?
He was not “sentenced to death” - he made a free and willing choice to try the American health care system, thinking it would be better.
Did he die?

Did he die because he was sent to the bottom of the list?

Then he was sentenced to death. QED
Wrong, it’s a world-wide Catholic forum. a
Really? What threads are in Greek, Coptic, German, French, and other languages?

This forum is based in the United States, run by Americans, and the majority of the posters are Americans. As I said, we don’t go to Canadian forums, and talk down to Canadians.
No, but you don’t mind telling lies about the Canadian medical system on a world-wide forum, or making it seem like the Canadian system is deliberately out to kill people.
But by your own account, this unfortunate man was sent to the bottom of the list – without a trial – and he died before he could get treatment. Isn’t that what happened?
 
But by your own account, this unfortunate man was sent to the bottom of the list – without a trial – and he died before he could get treatment. Isn’t that what happened?
It was not the fault of the Canadian medical system that he died.

Nor was it the fault of the American system.

Neither system is set up for what he tried to do. I have no idea what a “trial” has to do with it.
 
Really? What threads are in Greek, Coptic, German, French, and other languages?
Why does it matter? It’s on the World Wide Web; thus, it’s world-wide. There is no sign on the entrance that says, “Americans Only.” 🤷
 
Why does it matter? It’s on the World Wide Web; thus, it’s world-wide. There is no sign on the entrance that says, “Americans Only.” 🤷
So that justifies sneering at us?

I repeat, we don’t go to Canadian websites and attack Canada.
 
Vern, you’re being obtuse. Probably on purpose, but for the benefit of the lurkers - again - he left, of his own accord. He drove to the United States in his own car; nobody forced him to switch systems in the middle of the process.

He was not “sentenced to death” - he made a free and willing choice to try the American health care system, thinking it would be better.

Wrong, it’s a world-wide Catholic forum.

No, but you don’t mind telling lies about the Canadian medical system on a world-wide forum, or making it seem like the Canadian system is deliberately out to kill people.
There are many factors we must figure into a transplant; and maybe the factor of insurance or medicare is not the top of the list.

What is the patients blood type; must be compatible to the donor.

More donors in USA than Canada.

Health condition of the recipient.

If the person has had a transplant the second is more rejected a third is usually impossible the body will reject any more.

The minute a donor dies there is not much time to locate a recipient and that recipient may have to travel, maybe even to the USA? Not sure how this all works across borders.

I have seen many broke people receive lots of health care but one factor is they are usually not as healthy, or have the facilities for continued care, such as support, from family. Big factor!

I’m sorry about your dad.
 
Let’s not forget this thread is about medical care in the United States, and perforce asks, “What kind of health care system should we have?”

In that regard, it is sensible to look at what other nations have – and that means looking at their shortcomings and failures as well as their successes. However, that seems to draw the ire of some, who feel that if you don’t worship at the altar of a single payer system, you’re a heretic, uncaring, and a big doo-doo head.😛
 
Let’s not forget this thread is about medical care in the United States, and perforce asks, “What kind of health care system should we have?”

In that regard, it is sensible to look at what other nations have – and that means looking at their shortcomings and failures as well as their successes. However, that seems to draw the ire of some, who feel that if you don’t worship at the altar of a single payer system, you’re a heretic, uncaring, and a big doo-doo head.😛
If there is anyone we should really care about is our close neighbors to the North. Sometimes doo doo heads run up there to get away, anyways.😛

There is an old saying; You may move away and find work, raise a family, get rich, get old, learn another language, travel around the world, buy a house, etc. but when it comes time to die we all come back home where we were born because if the county born you they want you back to get the tax dollars to take care of you till you die. I know that is cynical and sarcastic but it happens.😃

Broke people a lot times ONLY have their HEALTH and DIGNITY left , but each country has a different opinion to what is important so yes it would be nice to have a thread on what is important to the differnet countries.
I really don’t understand why the OP started this thread just using it to put out my opinion.
Conversations With God is a movie based on a homeless man that finds himself and it wasn’t a great movie but did deal with how some live in New York. Now I am really off the topic so I don’t want to destroy this thread so I will quit. Sorry Mod please excuse.
 
I know a lot of people complain that “healthcare is not a right.” I used to be one of them, before I was a Catholic.

I would not call it a “right” in the sense that freedom of religion is a “right”. Everyone who can afford health insurance/health care should pay a fair price for it. But should people who cannot pay for healthcare received healthcare?**
Some people I have know do pay a little like 50 dollars a month never pay for all the money to get the kidney transplant he got but it was excused after his death and he did die, the time he had left, about 5 years, he had his wife work and mangaged to help her to earn enough to buy a moble home and bear him a child and she is carrying on. **

I suggest we approach the debate from a different angle. If a society has the ability to save someone’s life through medical treatment, does that society have the moral right to deny them that treatment because they cannot pay for it?**
No they do not have the right and there are many factors involved.**

A step further. Would it be right to deny a child life-saving medical treatment because his parents could not pay for it? **
No but life saving is too broad a term and parents do what they can and sometimes there are no parents or sponsors**

Again, would it be right to deny a grown man a treatment that would save his ability to walk and therefore his livelyhood, simply because he would not pay for it?**
I’m sure you meant he could not pay for it. You must get into the system if you want the system to help.**

Thankfully there are no longer hospitals (that I know of) who will turn away seriously injured or endangered patients because of inability to pay.
**Actually in Milwaukee the street sweepers find a dead person or seriously injured person (homeless) in the gutter frequently and they take them to the county hospital and if they have no one in their life to speak for them well?
**

Here’s my own true story. My wife was rushed to a “magnet” hospital forty miles away in order to prevent her delivering three months early. She stayed at that hospital one month. When our son was born, over two months early, he had to stay in various special needs nursuries for a month. When he was in neonatal intensive care, it cost an average of $4,700 a day to keep him alive. The final cost is yet being tallied, but already exceeds $100,000; I suspect that when the final hospital gives us a statement, it will bring that total to around $130,000.
My nephew was born like that and they made use of a children’s hopital and RMcD house etc. Please check out organizations.He is passed away now after 3 years of life and I pray you have more time with your child.

We were dramatically underinsured for such an event. We had a choice: either go on Medicare or declare bankruptcy. Either way we would be a drain on society; I chose the former.
**Life is not a drain on society I hope you don’t still feel that way. Here’s the question: should Medicare have been available for us? Should my wife and my son have had access to the excellent care that undoubtedly saved my son’s life? Or is about $130,000 too much for society to spend on one infant life?
No I pray you have more help for you and your child. **

OK, final question: How “pro-life” are we?
**
Our county is and I used to be not so like you till I became a Catholic too and started to care a little more, it takes each of us to care one to one. **
 
Here is a question: Should we be providing free health insurance for the able bodied who are too lazy to work? This big group I am talking about here are those over 65 who receive medicare, which is a form of government welfare. Many of these beneficiaries are able to work, but hey, why work when the government will pay you for doing nothing and give you free health insurance? I am limiting my point here to those who are able to work, should the government pay for health care for this group?

Now, if you are in favor of the government providing health care for the able bodied old who are too lazy to work, why not for the young?
I don’t see people that have reached 65 and retire as lazy. Also I don’t know if you have looked at medicare benefits lately but as a person that works for a healthcare company and see the medical bills and medicare payment and what is left as patent responsibility most time they have to have additional insurance to pay and even then are left with huge bills. the in hospital deductable as of 2008 is over 1000.00 every 60 days. out patient over treatment is over a 100.00 a year and with both you still have co insurance payment and co pays ( portions that patent is responsible to pay). That is not even talking about any medication you may need. Also You have paid into the Social security for the last forty or so years and you deserve to receive that money But if you continue to work they cut that benefit. I am 42 and look forward to retiring but have no idea how i will be able to afford to.

As to the OP we owe it to one another to take care of making sure that all people receive the medical treatment they need regardless
less just try and figure out away to keep the government out of it.

Also those receiving medicare do pay for coverage for parts b c and d.
Peace in the lord.

Scott
 
Are you sure? Most states have special programs for people in your situation. They are sort of like the “assigned risk” programs for automobile insurance.

And, if we had true MSAs you could always have an MSA.

And if you could shop across state lines (and buy from a company not licensed in your state) you could probably find quite a few choices.

Why not do a little more digging?
Where I live there is quite a waiting list for our state’s coverage, so my “choice” is the only one available for me - no coverage!
 
I don’t see people that have reached 65 and retire as lazy.
Would you see someone who is 30 and chooses not to work and receive free healthcare from the government as lazy? If so, then what is the difference between the two. It seems to be an arbitrary distinction.
Also I don’t know if you have looked at medicare benefits lately but as a person that works for a healthcare company and see the medical bills and medicare payment and what is left as patent responsibility most time they have to have additional insurance to pay and even then are left with huge bills. the in hospital deductable as of 2008 is over 1000.00 every 60 days. out patient over treatment is over a 100.00 a year and with both you still have co insurance payment and co pays ( portions that patent is responsible to pay). That is not even talking about any medication you may need. Also You have paid into the Social security for the last forty or so years and you deserve to receive that money
Medicare Part A is almost all covered by medicare payroll taxes (86%). However the cost of part B is mostly by general tax revenues (75%) and partly by premiums (25%). So the question is, why should the taxpayer (which is you and me) have to foot the bill for part B for those who are able bodied?

I have noticed on this thread that those who scream the loudest against a single payer system, are quite silent when it comes to medicare. Don’t get me wrong, I am not in favor of a single payer system, but I don’t believe in paying for something that people can provide for themselves.
 
Would you see someone who is 30 and chooses not to work and receive free healthcare from the government as lazy? If so, then what is the difference between the two. It seems to be an arbitrary distinction.

Medicare Part A is almost all covered by medicare payroll taxes (86%). However the cost of part B is mostly by general tax revenues (75%) and partly by premiums (25%). So the question is, why should the taxpayer (which is you and me) have to foot the bill for part B for those who are able bodied?

I have noticed on this thread that those who scream the loudest against a single payer system, are quite silent when it comes to medicare. Don’t get me wrong, I am not in favor of a single payer system, but I don’t believe in paying for something that people can provide for themselves.
I’m not at all silent when it comes to medicare! It just hasn’t come up. When I turned 65, I had to apply for Medicare, because my insurance coverage suddenly became secondary coverage. I now pay more for medical care than I did before.

One of the reasons I support MSAs is that the average person can build up enough cash that way in his working years to pay for his health care after retirement.
 
I’m not at all silent when it comes to medicare! It just hasn’t come up. When I turned 65, I had to apply for Medicare, because my insurance coverage suddenly became secondary coverage. I now pay more for medical care than I did before.
I brought up the subject in post 14, but I think it got ignored because of the flurry of other posts on the topic.
One of the reasons I support MSAs is that the average person can build up enough cash that way in his working years to pay for his health care after retirement.
Which of course, is as it should be, especially for those of us who have the ability to build up assets.
 
So that justifies sneering at us?

I repeat, we don’t go to Canadian websites and attack Canada.
Oh come on, Vern, we make fun of Canadians all the time (and bash their health care system, justifiably or otherwise). He has just as much of a right to comment on healthcare as anyone else on this forum, which is run by American Catholics for the benefit of Catholics worldwide. This is about healthcare, not one-up-manship my country is better than your country nah-nah-nah. Nowhere is perfect, and people have different points of view; but why bring nationality into it? He’s not attacking our country, nor do we intend to attack his :rolleyes:
 
I brought up the subject in post 14, but I think it got ignored because of the flurry of other posts on the topic.

Which of course, is as it should be, especially for those of us who have the ability to build up assets.
Consider a young person, 18 to 20 years old, making $5.50 an hour. Working steadily, he will make $11,440 a year. He currently pays 7.65% in FICA taxes, and the employer pays another 7.65% – which is really the employee’s money. He earns it (if he doesn’t, who does?) So he pays a total of $1750.32 in FICA taxes annunally, or $145.86 a month. None of this goes toward his healthcare – he doesn’t get Medicare at his age.

Let’s suppose this money were invested in his name, in a fair-to-middlin’ mutual fund with a return of 10% annually (that’s below average for long term funds.) After 45 years, he would have about 1.5 million in his account, and could transfer that to money market funds and draw about $75,000 a year and never touch the principal. If his wife also worked (as most wives do nowadays) they would have about twice that – or roughtly 4 times what Social Security will pay.

Now note this person never got a raise! We allowed for inflation by assuming his last check would buy exactly what his first check would buy – so those figures are really over-adjusted for inflation.

Now let’s say his MSA allowed him to save a measley $25 a month rolled over into his IRA during the same period. He’d have another quarter of a million more. Again, a couple who worked that same minimum wage, would have about double that (or perhaps a bit less, if the wife took time off to have children.)

In other words, it is possible for a person on Minimum Wage to save enough to become a millionaire – he already saves enough, and the government takes it away from him!!

And for a few dollars more, he can pay most of his own healthcare
 
Contrary to popular belief health insurance is affordable.

It may not be great coverage but catastrophic insurance is affordable.

When faced with $1800 Cobra payment, I got coverage for my two children for $ 240.00 per month. It came with a $ 6250 deductable then 100% coverage.

The idea of the co-payment is what makes insurance unaffordable. When Molly gets a sniffle just give the Dr. his $85 and go home. If she goes deathly ill it’ll cost you $6250.🤷
 
I’m not at all silent when it comes to medicare! It just hasn’t come up. When I turned 65, I had to apply for Medicare, because my insurance coverage suddenly became secondary coverage. I now pay more for medical care than I did before.
Uh, isn’t that what you would expect? Since 65+ consumes the lions share of health care, insurance should go up as you get older. That’s why private insurers are no longer coveting you.

We don’t have to compare Medicare to fantasy land, we can look at the pre-Medicare numbers. Today’s seniors receive dramatically more extensive care at a significant adjusted total dollars savings.
One of the reasons I support MSAs is that the average person can build up enough cash that way in his working years to pay for his health care after retirement.
Why is it that the folks most interested in free market solutions to societal problems are the most anxious to abandon econ 101?

MSA’s aren’t theory, they’ve been tried for about two decades in CA. The results so far? Middle/Upper class contributers putting in far more than the amounts you specify cannot keep up with non-catastrophic health care costs.

It seems like a no brainer. If we look over long periods, say 50 years, even a fairly risky stock portfolio will generate about 7% return. But medical costs are growing at 10-18% per year. So you are trying to save for something incredibly expensive (average lifetime medical expenditures for Americans is significantly higher than the average cost for a single family home, and a huge number of American’s can’t afford their own home) using negative interest in real dollars.

And this ignores three other critical probems. First, long haul return is cyclic. IE, over the long haul my 401K earns money, but it also has 6 figure swings. We can’t plan on not getting sick because the .com bubble burst, or the stupid-omics behind the current mortage disaster (both real examples of negative equity requiring multi-year (perhaps multiple decade) adjustments for recovery).

Second, scatter from median in health care is huge. The average cost of each year of life past normal expectancy is about $143,000 in medical costs for a person currently over 62. But the scatter ranges from <$10,000 to >$1,000,000. This is why we have medical insurance now, to spread the risk over a larger pool. An MSA is the opposite of this, it is essentially a ‘group insurance’ pool, with an incredibly small group.

Third, we have a negative savings rate, with an alarming amount of credit card debt being wracked up for basic staples now. The idea that every low wage earner is going to be able to save up for worst case catastrophic health care needs (essentially a massive mansion) on an income that requires using credit cards to get food at the end of each month, is silly.

What troubles me about this is that we put up so many smoke screens, much like discussions about the death penalty. If we stop chest thumping and squawking and just look at demonstrable reality, it is clear. Nearly 40 other nations provide a larger percentage of their citizens better health care at a dramatically lower cost than the US. In fact, spending is the only catagory we lead in among industrialized nations. We’ve reached the point were $0.05 of every single dollar in our GDP goes to health care administration, yet roughly 40,000,000 Americans effectively fall outside our heath care system (either un-insured or woefully under-insured).

If we want to reject Christ’s teachings, fine. Make a case. But lets stop pretending that it is our pocket books that make it impractical.
 
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