Should broke people receive health care?

[RachelsAlumni]

“Bill” was just paroled from prison (from his second term.) He walked away from the work-release program (a violation of his parole) and went to live with his mother – supporting himself by burglary.

“Sally” who is married to a truck driver (who makes more than the median salary) took her three kids to live with Bill. She’s a Certified Nursing Assistant, but she used up all her sick leave and vacation to be with Bill.

Sally and Bill decided to have a party – they drove to another county (Bill driving, another violation of the terms of his parole) and bought alcohol (another violation of the terms of his parole) and then ran off the road and hit a tree.

Both of them were hospitalized.

Who should pay for their medical care?

Sally pays for Sally’s medical care. She has a proven income and will not qualify for assistance. She will be required to pay.

Bill will most certainly be placed back in custody of the State. He will, however, qualify for State assistance (for the private hospital expenses) because he has no recordable income.

Once he’s taken back into custody his healthcare issues are another thing:

A recent parolee and type II diabetic named Frederick (who did not give his last name) described how, when he was sent to prison in California a few years ago on a theft charge, he could walk and see as well as any other person. By the time the state released him a few months ago, he was legally blind and confined to a wheelchair.

He described to a crowd of about 40 people how prison staff neglected his medical condition until a 1999 stroke left him severely disabled. For instance, even though he is diabetic and has special dietary needs, he was served the same food as the other inmates. In addition, he added, “many of us diabetics weren’t even getting our daily insulin injections in a timely manner.”

With over 157,000 inmates in 33 facilities and an annual budget of nearly $5 billion, the California Department of Corrections operates the largest prison system in the nation. Yet critics charge that sick or injured inmates receive substandard and intermittent care. “California is the model for what a large prison system can do for a very ill prison population,” said Judy Greenspan, the event’s coordinator and chair of the HIV/Hepatitis C in Prisons Committee of California Prison Focus. "I think that it falls flat on its face.
sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/03/11/healthwatch.DTL

 

[vern_humphrey]

And although I see your point, they are still human beings and we are still Christians.

Yes, they are.

But when someone complains, “The system is broken,” they are the ones who broke it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sally pays for Sally’s medical care. She has a proven income and will not qualify for assistance. She will be required to pay.

No, Sally does not have an income – she has used all her sick leave and vacation time.

Bill will most certainly be placed back in custody of the State. He will, however, qualify for State assistance (for the private hospital expenses) because he has no recordable income.

Once he’s taken back into custody his healthcare issues are another thing:

Yes – a couple of years ago our sheriff broke up a meth ring run by women. Those women, all meth addicts themselves – had classic “meth mouth” (the teeth basically get soft and fall out.) Their dental care while in jail cost the entire annual jail budget.

As a result, the other inmates ate a lot of oatmeal – three times a day – because that was all the county could afford.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I have said the same prayer every day for a couple of years now.

“God, may we strive to insure that every person on this planet has adequate food, clothing, housing, medical care, education, meaningful work, and enjoyable leisure time.”

I am literally astounded that some call themselves Christians yet dispute or argue this. Would God consider medical treatment not a right? Give me a break.

 

[mark_a]

Here’s my own true story. My wife was rushed to a “magnet” hospital forty miles away in order to prevent her delivering three months early. She stayed at that hospital one month. When our son was born, over two months early, he had to stay in various special needs nursuries for a month. When he was in neonatal intensive care, it cost an average of $4,700 a day to keep him alive. The final cost is yet being tallied, but already exceeds $100,000;

I’m so sorry to hear about your troubles.

I’d like to throw in a few questions of my own:

• Why does a hospital charge an uninsured person on average 3x what they would charge if that person had insurance?
• Why does health insurance cost 40% more for my family if I buy it than it does for my employer to buy it? (don’t give me the “group/quantity discount” balogna either). Will my family be sicker just because I am not in an employer paid plan?
• one complaint we hear from the insurance industry is that the quality of medical care will be diminished if everyone is insured. Will the quality of healthcare be diminished for those that can’t currently afford it?
• Do the poor uninsured enjoy being sick?

I suspect that when the final hospital gives us a statement, it will bring that total to around $130,000.

Be prepared to negotiate. Hire someone if necessary.

 

[mark_a]

Would God consider medical treatment not a right? Give me a break.

It depends if its the “have” of the “have-nots” God.

 

[daeve]

Yes, they are.

But when someone complains, “The system is broken,” they are the ones who broke it.

I don’t know that that’s the case. I don’t think I’ve ever said that myself, but I’m sure other people who say that aren’t always the ones who broke it.

We’ll never go back to the time when the doctor came to your house when you were sick and you paid him in chicken soup because you didn’t have any money.

Medical care, prescriptions and insurance are all so expensive that I can’t imagine how some people manage. I have a job with very good medical benefits, and I still pay over $200 for prescriptions…diabetes. I can’t imagine how I could do this without the insurance. Some of the stuff I take would be $284 a month. COBRA for one person is possible but a family? You’re not working and somehow have to find $1700 a month for COBRA. The equipment the hospitals have costs a fortune, the education the doctors get costs a fortune, the medicine costs a fortune, the tests cost a fortune, and everybody in the industry has to make a living and pay for his insurance too.

The worst part to me is that the “working poor” don’t get insurance from their jobs and sure can’t pay for it themselves. When one little sore throat costs $120 for the doctor and $25 for a prescription, what does the guy who makes $8 an hour do?

So what’s the solution? Anybody got an idea?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have said the same prayer every day for a couple of years now.

“God, may we strive to insure that every person on this planet has adequate food, clothing, housing, medical care, education, meaningful work, and enjoyable leisure time.”

I am literally astounded that some call themselves Christians yet dispute or argue this. Would God consider medical treatment not a right? Give me a break.

Which leg?

Read the Epistles of Saint Paul, and see how he struggled with this very problem – charity is good, but freeloaders are bad. His conclusion was, “If anyone will not work, let him not eat.”

 

[krimshas]

Yes, they are.

But when someone complains, “The system is broken,” they are the ones who broke it.

Sorry, next time I’ll try not to have a premie…

 

[vern_humphrey]

The worst part to me is that the “working poor” don’t get insurance from their jobs and sure can’t pay for it themselves. When one little sore throat costs $120 for the doctor and $25 for a prescription, what does the guy who makes $8 an hour do?

So what’s the solution? Anybody got an idea?

Yes.

First of all, make those who can pay their own way, do it.

Second, allow people to shop for health insurance across state lines (currently illegal – despite the Constitution.)

Third, allow unaffiliated small businesses to band together to bargain for insurance for their employees from a position of strength (currently illegal.)

Fourth, enact true medical savings accounts, where people save for medical expenses before tax, and roll any savings over into their IRAs each year.

Fifth, enact meaningful tort reform – lawsuits are a significant cost factor in medical matters.

Sixth, attack the Canadian and European price caps on American-developed drugs as a fair trade issue. They’re getting a free ride on the backs of the American consumer.

 

[rlg94086]

What does that have to do with Vern’s comment?

Sorry, next time I’ll try not to have a premie…

 

[krimshas]

I’m so sorry to hear about your troubles.

Don’t be; we’re just glad to have him! The difficulty has brought us closer together and more reliant on Christ and the Saints.

Be prepared to negotiate. Hire someone if necessary.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, next time I’ll try not to have a premie…

How did you having a premie cause Bill to break his parole? How did it cause Sally to take her children and leave her husband for Bill? How did it cause the two of them to drink and drive, wreck her car and wind up in the hospital?

 

[Dale_M]

My assessment is that if it’s a basic human need, than it’s also a right; food, water, shelter. But not everyone needs health care to the same extent. Joe Blow might need a liver transplant while Moe Blow might not need to go to a physician except for his flu vaccination. Most everyone has similar needs, though, in terms of food and shelter.

I’d say, if one will get sick or die without it, it’s a basic human right.

This sounds like a reasonable working definition. After all, we don’t want to be paying for tummy tucks or health club memberships.

So access to health care is the next point. In the U.S. health care is largely treated as a commodity - something to be bought as needed according to the values of individual consumers. However, 47 million Americans lack health insurance and this results in less than recommended medical care.

The uninsured are far more likely than those with insurance to report problems getting needed medical care. About a quarter of uninsured adults say that they have postponed or forgone care in the past year because of its cost—compared to only about 5% of adults with private coverage. Part of the reason for this is that nearly 60% of uninsured adults do not have a regular place to go when they are sick or need medical advice (Figure 6).

Anticipating high medical bills, many of the uninsured are not able to follow recommended treatment. Nearly a quarter of uninsured adults say they did not fill a drug prescription in the past year because they could not afford it. While persons who have been injured or recently diagnosed with a new chronic condition are equally likely to have follow-up care recommended after seeing a physician, the uninsured are less likely than the insured to receive all the services that were advised

Access to health care improves after an uninsured person obtains health insurance;similarly, losing coverage,whether it is private insurance or Medicaid,substantially decreases access to care. For example, persons who have lost Medicaid coverage are two to three times more likely than Medicaid beneficiaries to report going without medical care because its too expensive and they are worried about medical bills.10

The quotes were taken from the Kaiser Family Foundation’s October 2007 report The Uninsured: A Primer

I guess we need to agree whether or not there is a large number of Americans (if you want to discuss another nation, please jump in!) who can’t afford recommended medical care. If we agree on this, we can continue to the next point… uninsured people are more likely to be sick, and more likely to die.

 

[krimshas]

Yes.

First of all, make those who can pay their own way, do it.

Second, allow people to shop for health insurance across state lines (currently illegal – despite the Constitution.)

Third, allow unaffiliated small businesses to band together to bargain for insurance for their employees from a position of strength (currently illegal.)

Fourth, enact true medical savings accounts, where people save for medical expenses before tax, and roll any savings over into their IRAs each year.

Fifth, enact meaningful tort reform – lawsuits are a significant cost factor in medical matters.

Sixth, attack the Canadian and European price caps on American-developed drugs as a fair trade issue. They’re getting a free ride on the backs of the American consumer.

 

[krimshas]

How did you having a premie cause Bill to break his parole? How did it cause Sally to take her children and leave her husband for Bill? How did it cause the two of them to drink and drive, wreck her car and wind up in the hospital?

Woah, sorry. I think communication broke down somewhere… my mistake!

 

[consumedconvert]

With apologies to all, I accidentally posted comments under another alias, krimshas. I’m using a shared computer. Hope that clears up a bit of confusion. Apologies!

 

[daeve]

Yes.

First of all, make those who can pay their own way, do it.

Second, allow people to shop for health insurance across state lines (currently illegal – despite the Constitution.)

Third, allow unaffiliated small businesses to band together to bargain for insurance for their employees from a position of strength (currently illegal.)

Fourth, enact true medical savings accounts, where people save for medical expenses before tax, and roll any savings over into their IRAs each year.

Fifth, enact meaningful tort reform – lawsuits are a significant cost factor in medical matters.

Sixth, attack the Canadian and European price caps on American-developed drugs as a fair trade issue. They’re getting a free ride on the backs of the American consumer.

I’m willing to give it a try. How do we get it started?

 

[consumedconvert]

I’m willing to give it a try. How do we get it started?

Examine the guys you vote for in the upcoming elections! (Trying not to stray onto banned topics.) Then pray pressures mount so high on our legislative process that two houses and a president will somehow allow the needs of the people overide the desires of huge businesses!

 

[Texas_Roofer]

……………………………….
A step further. Would it be right to deny a child life-saving medical treatment because his parents could not pay for it?

absolutely not

Again, would it be right to deny a grown man a treatment that would save his ability to walk and therefore his livelyhood, simply because he would not pay for it?

absolutely not

Thankfully there are no longer hospitals (that I know of) who will turn away seriously injured or endangered patients because of inability to pay.

built by humans for humans

Here’s my own true story……… bring that total to around $130,000.

We were dramatically underinsured for such an event. We had a choice: either go on Medicare or declare bankruptcy. Either way we would be a drain on society; I chose the former.

Good decision

Here’s the question: should Medicare have been available for us? Should my wife and my son have had access to the excellent care that undoubtedly saved my son’s life? Or is about $130,000 too much for society to spend on one infant life?..

‘hum lets say this happens to someone else and we deny them. They have a premie with sever lifelong problems so mom never works again and dad can not pay those bills either. So lets be calus and pretend it is about money.

Your wife may work 30 years @ 30k @40% taxes that is $360,000 in taxes
And the son he works 45 years at 45k @ 40% taxes that is $810,000 in taxes

Now the other folks
That wife may work 0 years @ $0 @ 40% taxes that is $0 in taxes
And that son he works 0 years at $0 @ 40% taxes that is $0 in taxes

Looks like we made a good investment in your son?

Hmm, I do see your point, but your analogy is flawed. $10 billion is not a possible “what if” number, for one. In fact, in terms of real costs, it should probably not have cost $130,000 to save our baby (not that I’m complaining, mind you; his care was excellent). Something in the system’s broken. I’m no economist, but I know that when his special prescription diaper rash cream costs $85 for a two ounce tube, which was prescribed when over-the-counter butt paste didnt’ work, something’s broken in the pricing mechanism of medical care is broken. Call it a breakdown of free enterprise; people have no choice what medicine they need, so they have to pay for it no matter how much it costs. But that’s yet another post…

A couple of years ago the actual cost was 40-48% of the billed rate so the care your son received cost about $52,000-$62,000 the rest is inflated markup to allow for insurance discounts ( typically 30%), and covering uninsured* patients.

So in summary we (taxpayers) laid out about $60k and we will recieve more than a million dollars for it.

*Even if never paid this inflation allows for a larger tax deduction for the hospital