D
daeve
Guest
This was way too complicated for me.
- Status
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
If you’d voted for me when I ran for Congress in '04 (First District of Arkansas) it would already be on track.
We have to push these ideas – talk them up, educate others, write our congressional delegations, and so on.
C
consumedconvert
Guest
You’d have to move to IL firstIf you’d voted for me when I ran for Congress in '04 (First District of Arkansas) it would already be on track.
We have to push these ideas – talk them up, educate others, write our congressional delegations, and so on.
… Please? We have bad luck with legislatures…
M
mark_a
Guest
I have heard of advocates that will do the job. Even an accountant can help.A lawyer isn’t very high on my list of necessary expenditures at the moment.
D
daeve
Guest
I’d have had to cross the border from MO, and vote illegally. I’m not a one-issue voter, but this one is pretty close to the top of my list.If you’d voted for me when I ran for Congress in '04 (First District of Arkansas) it would already be on track.
We have to push these ideas – talk them up, educate others, write our congressional delegations, and so on.
R
rlg94086
Guest
Couldn’t you send down some of your dead voters to Arkansas?You’d have to move to IL first
S
StBenMom
Guest
I wonder how much Jesus charged the leper???
N
neuro_nurse
Guest
The Catechism says,
Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance. (2288)
I guess it stops short of defining health care as a “right,” but it seems to me that it is clear that we are responsible ensuring basic needs are provided for all of the members of our society.
I know that abuses occur within the health care system, but anecdotal accounts of those abuses are not sufficient evidence to support the assumption that they are widespread, and certainly not sufficient enough to justify systematic denial of health care to anyone.
As for “heroic” measures, I’m an ICU nurse, I care for dying patients every day, and yes, some of the things I see disturb me – to the point that what I do sometimes is in opposition to the reasons I became a nurse. Let me explain.
I became a nurse to work in Africa. I spent a year volunteering in Ethiopia, now I’m back in the critical care environment while I complete a masters in public health, then I plan to go back to Africa.
We spend thousands of dollars per day keeping people “alive” in the ICU. I used to work trauma, so believe me, I know the value of intensive care – we save lives, but all too often I am tasked with maintaining patients who are not going to survive to discharge.
I know from my work in Africa that the amount of money we spend keeping a single moribund patient “alive” for *one day *in the ICU can save hundreds, if not thousands of lives in a developing country by simply providing clean water, vaccinations, nutrition, antenatal care, and bed nets to prevent malaria.
Americans have high expectations from the health care system, and I believe that our expectations exceed what can reasonably be provided.
Death is a part of life, and it can be a beautiful transition when we accept it as that. In the ICU we make death ugly. We don’t always respect death.
John Paul II wrote,
Euthanasia must be distinguished from the decision to forego so-called “aggressive medical treatment”, in other words, medical procedures which no longer correspond to the real situation of the patient, either because they are by now disproportionate to any expected results or because they impose an excessive burden on the patient and his family. In such situations, when death is clearly imminent and inevitable, one can in conscience “refuse forms of treatment that would only secure a precarious and burdensome prolongation of life, so long as the normal care due to the sick person in similar cases is not interrupted”.
Evangelium vitae
I’m not advocating euthanasia. The Vatican has made it clear that “normal care” includes nutrition and hydration.
Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance. (2288)
I guess it stops short of defining health care as a “right,” but it seems to me that it is clear that we are responsible ensuring basic needs are provided for all of the members of our society.
I know that abuses occur within the health care system, but anecdotal accounts of those abuses are not sufficient evidence to support the assumption that they are widespread, and certainly not sufficient enough to justify systematic denial of health care to anyone.
As for “heroic” measures, I’m an ICU nurse, I care for dying patients every day, and yes, some of the things I see disturb me – to the point that what I do sometimes is in opposition to the reasons I became a nurse. Let me explain.
I became a nurse to work in Africa. I spent a year volunteering in Ethiopia, now I’m back in the critical care environment while I complete a masters in public health, then I plan to go back to Africa.
We spend thousands of dollars per day keeping people “alive” in the ICU. I used to work trauma, so believe me, I know the value of intensive care – we save lives, but all too often I am tasked with maintaining patients who are not going to survive to discharge.
I know from my work in Africa that the amount of money we spend keeping a single moribund patient “alive” for *one day *in the ICU can save hundreds, if not thousands of lives in a developing country by simply providing clean water, vaccinations, nutrition, antenatal care, and bed nets to prevent malaria.
Americans have high expectations from the health care system, and I believe that our expectations exceed what can reasonably be provided.
Death is a part of life, and it can be a beautiful transition when we accept it as that. In the ICU we make death ugly. We don’t always respect death.
John Paul II wrote,
Euthanasia must be distinguished from the decision to forego so-called “aggressive medical treatment”, in other words, medical procedures which no longer correspond to the real situation of the patient, either because they are by now disproportionate to any expected results or because they impose an excessive burden on the patient and his family. In such situations, when death is clearly imminent and inevitable, one can in conscience “refuse forms of treatment that would only secure a precarious and burdensome prolongation of life, so long as the normal care due to the sick person in similar cases is not interrupted”.
Evangelium vitae
I’m not advocating euthanasia. The Vatican has made it clear that “normal care” includes nutrition and hydration.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
They do that in Arkansas, too.Couldn’t you send down some of your dead voters to Arkansas?
A couple of famous Arkansas politicians (no names, by order of the IRS) were working their way through a graveyard, registering voters. One of them called out, “Bill! Here’s a guy named Smythe-Baldwick. We can register him twice!”
And her partner said, “No, Hillary, that would be unethical.”
R
rlg94086
Guest
Couldn’t you send down some of your dead voters to Arkansas?You’d have to move to IL first
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
First of all, there’s a heck of a lot more than “anecdotal accounts” to prove medicare abuses are widespread – to the tune of billions each year.
Secondly, we really aren’t talking about medicare fraud – we’re talking about the idea that someone can choose to buy a new car, and have his healthcare paid for by others because of that decision.
We’re talking about people who can work and pay their way, and won’t.
R
rlg94086
Guest
This is one of the fundamental problems I have regarding this issue. Everyone in the US has access to health care. There is no “systematic denial of health care” that I know of. Everyone has “access to healthcare.” The fact that it is too expensive is the real problem.
Vern’s suggestions would help somewhat, but I spoke to a doctor on a plane that explained to me that we can also reduce medical costs significantly just by implementing a few preventative measures that would seriously reduce heart disease, stroke, etc. Unfortunately, it has been many months since that conversations, so please don’t push for particulars.
Anyway, that doctor is retired and putting all his efforts into lobbying government…both sides of the aisle.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
And one of the reasons is we have too many freeloaders – people who can pay their way, but feel the rest of us should pay for them.
There are all sorts of things we could do, but I’m afraid what we’re going to do is simply socialize medical care – and as P.J. O’Rourke says, “If you think medical care is expensive now, wait until it’s free.”Vern’s suggestions would help somewhat, but I spoke to a doctor on a plane that explained to me that we can also reduce medical costs significantly just by implementing a few preventative measures that would seriously reduce heart disease, stroke, etc. Unfortunately, it has been many months since that conversations, so please don’t push for particulars.
N
neuro_nurse
Guest
Please cite your sources for those claims.
I have heard too many people talk about the burden on the health care system from undocumented aliens, yet I can cite several studies that show that there is no truth to those claims, that immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants, underutilize health care services.
Weinick, R. M., Jacobs, E. A., Stone, L. C., Ortega, A. N., Burstin, H. (2004). Hispanic healthcare disparities: challenging the myth of a monolithic Hispanic population. Medical Care, 42(4), 313-320.
Guendelman, S., Wagner, T. H., (2000). Health services utilization among Latinos and white non-Latinos: results of a national survey. Journal of Health Care for the Poor & Underserved, 11(2), 179-194.
Waidmann, T. A., Rajan, S. (2000). Race and ethnic disparities in health care access and utilization: an examination of state variation. Medical Care Research & Review, 57[Supple. 1] 55-84.
Mohanty, S. A., Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U., Pati, S., Carrasquillo, O., Bor, D. H. (2005). Health expenditures of immigrants in the United States: a nationally representative analysis. Journal of Public Health, 95, 1431-1438.
…and more where those came from.
If it’s too expensive, then it’s not accessible.
You don’t have to cite the particulars, I’m working on a master’s in public health, so you’d be preaching to the choir!
J
jmcrae
Guest
How does someone “have access” who can’t afford it?
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
By not having to pay, of course!How does someone “have access” who can’t afford it?
In the US, you can go to any emergency room, and they can’t turn you away. If you can’t (or won’t) pay, the hospital has to eat the cost – which means, of course, they pass it on to the paying patients, raising their bills.
N
neuro_nurse
Guest
You obviously haven’t been to New Orleans lately!
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
For what, medicare fraud?
Just for grins and giggles, google “Florida” + “medicare fraud.”
If people who don’t pay use the services – even if they “underutilize” them – then someone else has to pay for what services they do use, no?
And does that rule not hold for all – those who do not pay throw the costs onto someone else, right?
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Are you telling me that you know of emergency rooms that turn people away – in violation of federal law?
Have you reported this?
R
rlg94086
Guest
Exactly. Besides, “access” does not mean “affordable.” If someone is denied access, as Catholics were denied access to life insurance years ago (Protestants only), that means they are not allowed to get something.
- Status