Should broke people receive health care?

[goofyjim]

The mortgage assistance program is a voluntary agreement among lenders, brokered by the government – not something done at taxpayer’s expense.

Vern,

I would be all for the government stepping out of healthcare for the poor and letting the Church do it but the numbers still wouldn’t be there to cover all the uninsured who need care. Because the Church doesn’t particularly take care of it’s own and instead focuses on spreading the socalled gospel. How much is actually wasted on these return address labels we get from charitable organizations. I am quite capable of writing my return address on my mail and therefore the money spent there could go towards this. So you see, even the Church doesn’t have its priorities straight.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern,

I would be all for the government stepping out of healthcare for the poor and letting the Church do it but the numbers still wouldn’t be there to cover all the uninsured who need care.

Have you read my comments on MSAs? (I know you have.)

I propose MSAs because:

1. They allow the individual to make his own healthcare decisions, free from bureaucratic dictates.
2. They work to lower healthcare costs through elimination of paperwork (from 1/3 to 2/3s the cost of healthcare.)
3. They further lower healthcare costs by payment on the spot, not forcing providers to wait for months to get paid.
4. They encourage people to bargain for healthcare.
5. They encourage people not to overconsume.
6. They promote savings, and all unspent money goes toward the person’s IRA.

Because the Church doesn’t particularly take care of it’s own and instead focuses on spreading the socalled gospel. How much is actually wasted on these return address labels we get from charitable organizations. I am quite capable of writing my return address on my mail and therefore the money spent there could go towards this. So you see, even the Church doesn’t have its priorities straight.

There are a couple of reasons for that you might examine – first of all, too many people in the Church are willing to shove it all off on government. I call these people “Couch Potato Catholics.” They sit on the sofa, drink beer and munch chips, cheer for the team or program of their choice – but never actually get up and carry the ball themselves.

Secondly, the government sucks up so much money that little is left for charity – as I pointed out, a person who makes minimium wage has to pay around $1,750 in FICA taxes (counting the "Employer’s Contribution – which is earned by the employee.)

 

[goofyjim]

Have you read my comments on MSAs? (I know you have.)

I propose MSAs because:

1. They allow the individual to make his own healthcare decisions, free from bureaucratic dictates.
2. They work to lower healthcare costs through elimination of paperwork (from 1/3 to 2/3s the cost of healthcare.)
3. They further lower healthcare costs by payment on the spot, not forcing providers to wait for months to get paid.
4. They encourage people to bargain for healthcare.
5. They encourage people not to overconsume.
6. They promote savings, and all unspent money goes toward the person’s IRA.

There are a couple of reasons for that you might examine – first of all, too many people in the Church are willing to shove it all off on government. I call these people “Couch Potato Catholics.” They sit on the sofa, drink beer and munch chips, cheer for the team or program of their choice – but never actually get up and carry the ball themselves.

Secondly, the government sucks up so much money that little is left for charity – as I pointed out, a person who makes minimium wage has to pay around $1,750 in FICA taxes (counting the "Employer’s Contribution – which is earned by the employee.)

You can call names all you want. The facts will show that even if you did away with the taxes there would still be those unable to work therefore unable to establish an MSA. The Church doesn’t have and never will have the resources to pay for these person’s expenses even if there were absolutely no taxes. And besides if we can’t cover healthcare for the poor then the government simply shouldn’t pay for anything, period.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You can call names all you want.

But you don’t deny there are Catholics who want the government to do it all, and who skimp on their own contributions to charity?

The facts will show that even if you did away with the taxes there would still be those unable to work therefore unable to establish an MSA.

Did you miss the part where I proposed public assistance to such people, based on their Income Tax returns?

The Church doesn’t have and never will have the resources to pay for these person’s expenses even if there were absolutely no taxes.

How many people are we talking about? Here in Mountain View (pop. 2.800), we regularly collect money and contribute to people’s medical needs.

And besides if we can’t cover healthcare for the poor then the government simply shouldn’t pay for anything, period.

So if we can’t pay for their healthcare, we let them starve before they need healthcare? And we close the schools?

 

[goofyjim]

But you don’t deny there are Catholics who want the government to do it all, and who skimp on their own contributions to charity?

Did you miss the part where I proposed public assistance to such people, based on their Income Tax returns?

How many people are we talking about? Here in Mountain View (pop. 2.800), we regularly collect money and contribute to people’s medical needs.

So if we can’t pay for their healthcare, we let them starve before they need healthcare? And we close the schools?

The Church can keep them from starving better than it can provide healthcare. The Church, as I said, wastes alot of money, for example, on all those silly little return address labels and papal pens and personalized notepads, you name it. My donations go to my parish and I let them divvy it up from there. They don’t even need to waste their time with the envelopes because I don’t use them. They are for those who want to deduct it off taxes at the end of the year and have the government subsidize their charitable giving. This is not what it is about. I have no interest in declaring to the government what I contribute on Sunday. The Lord said “Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.” When we start giving in excess without concern for itemizing the deduction then I 'll believe in charity.

 

[goofyjim]

But you don’t deny there are Catholics who want the government to do it all, and who skimp on their own contributions to charity?

Did you miss the part where I proposed public assistance to such people, based on their Income Tax returns?

How many people are we talking about? Here in Mountain View (pop. 2.800), we regularly collect money and contribute to people’s medical needs.

So if we can’t pay for their healthcare, we let them starve before they need healthcare? And we close the schools?

Good health is much more important than an education. If charity can cover medical expenses then it should cover schooling as well.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The Church can keep them from starving better than it can provide healthcare.

How so? Most people spend a lot more on food than on health care.

The Church, as I said, wastes alot of money, for example, on all those silly little return address labels and papal pens and personalized notepads, you name it. My donations go to my parish and I let them divvy it up from there. They don’t even need to waste their time with the envelopes because I don’t use them.

I suggest you approach your parish business manager on this subject.

They are for those who want to deduct it off taxes at the end of the year and have the government subsidize their charitable giving. This is not what it is about. I have no interest in declaring to the government what I contribute on Sunday. The Lord said “Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.” When we start giving in excess without concern for itemizing the deduction then I 'll believe in charity.

I have never deducted my contributions to the Church or any other charity. And for just that reason.

 

[MarkInOregon]

The thing that is broken is that so many people who can pay for their healthcare won’t – and throw the burden on the rest of us.

I will give you an example that I am dealing with right now – “Bill” was just paroled from prison (from his second term.) He walked away from the work-release program (a violation of his parole) and went to live with his mother – supporting himself by burglary.

“Sally” who is married to a truck driver (who makes more than the median salary) took her three kids to live with Bill. She’s a Certified Nursing Assistant, but she used up all her sick leave and vacation to be with Bill.

Sally and Bill decided to have a party – they drove to another county (Bill driving, another violation of the terms of his parole) and bought alcohol (another violation of the terms of his parole) and then ran off the road and hit a tree.

Both of them were hospitalized.

Who should pay for their medical care?

And are you willing to see your insurance go up because of the expenses associated with their recklessness?

People always throw out examples like this as if this represents the vast majority of those who can’t pay for their healthcare–and that is simply not the case. Its a red herring. My wife and I earn a good living and have decent health insurance, and we at times find it difficult to pay the medical that passes through after insurance.

By the way–if I saw the people in your example as Christ see them and if I loved them the way Christ loves them–then I am guessing that yes I would be willing to see my insurance go up. The problem is we can’t or won’t see them as Christ does.

I am also guessing that if we provided adequate preventative care to everyone, paid for shoes for diabetics that would prevent having to spend $$$$$$$ on expensive aputation surgery later, didn’t force the un or underinsured into emergency rooms and cut the red tape associated with insurance and billing (you can not believe how much money that could go to care is spent here) we could easily aford to provide health care to everyone.

Peace,
Mark

 

[vern_humphrey]

People always throw out examples like this as if this represents the vast majority of those who can’t pay for their healthcare–and that is simply not the case. Its a red herring. My wife and I earn a good living and have decent health insurance, and we at times find it difficult to pay the medical that passes through after insurance.

It is a real case. And I can show many others. Many poor people, unfortunately, are drug and alcohol abusers, for example.

Now, some people often get very agitated when that is brought up – but to solve a problem, you must understand the problem. To deny the high correlation between substance abuse and poverty is to turn a blind eye to the the problem.

By the way–if I saw the people in your example as Christ see them and if I loved them the way Christ loves them–then I am guessing that yes I would be willing to see my insurance go up. The problem is we can’t or won’t see them as Christ does.

So how do you know we don’t see them as Christ does (or as closely as mere humans can?)

Note that I cited this case and asked a question – how do we help them? And oddly enough, you have declined to answer it.

I am also guessing that if we provided adequate preventative care to everyone, paid for shoes for diabetics that would prevent having to spend $$$$$$$ on expensive aputation surgery later, didn’t force the un or underinsured into emergency rooms and cut the red tape associated with insurance and billing (you can not believe how much money that could go to care is spent here) we could easily aford to provide health care to everyone.

Very possibly. If we went on and took the very reasonable position that if we are to have healthcare for everybody, somebody must pay for it, it would be easier to see that those who can afford to pay for their own care should pay. Those who can afford to partially pay for their care should pay their share. And we can then help those who can pay nothing at all.

Now, go back and read the discussion of MSAs, what their advantages are, and how we can help people who cannot pay all their healthcare pay for some of it.

 

[ribozyme]

It is a real case. And I can show many others. Many poor people, unfortunately, are drug and alcohol abusers, for example.

Now, some people often get very agitated when that is brought up – but to solve a problem, you must understand the problem. To deny the high correlation between substance abuse and poverty is to turn a blind eye to the the problem.

The liberal will ask what social policies should be enacted to help them? What can be done to eliminate the effects of poverty?

Hard to answer… I do not have a sufficient answer to that question.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The liberal will ask what social policies should be enacted to help them? What can be done to eliminate the effects of poverty?

Hard to answer… I do not have a sufficient answer to that question.

Actually, I can give a general answer – improve our education system. Right now, around 29 - 30% of children who enter high school do not graduate. High school dropouts make up the majority of the poor, and, according to BLS statistics, are the lowest income catetgory in the country.

And in this specific case, Bill’s mother called the Sheriff, told him where Bill had hidden loot from a burglary, and Bill was arrested. He is back in prison, serving a life sentence. Sally took her children and went back to Tom (who like a good Christian, lived up to his marriage vows.)

Shortly thereafter, Bill’s mother fell from a horse, went into a coma and died. Bill’s son, who she was caring for, was taken in by a family who often baby-sat him, and they are in the process of adopting him.

 

[jmcrae]

It is a real case. And I can show many others. Many poor people, unfortunately, are drug and alcohol abusers, for example.

It is true that one of the causes of poverty is drug and alcohol abuse. But it is not the only cause. Since you work with the poor, obviously you already know this.

Lack of appropriate education, poor judgement or bad timing with regard to investments, war, and natural disasters are all causes of poverty. Most of these things are not under anyone’s personal control - if you were to end up homeless tomorrow because your investment portfolio goes belly-up, I should hope that everyone on this Forum would not say, “Well, obviously Vern is some kind of a drug addict, or else he wouldn’t be poor - let him stew in his own juices until he sobers up - a little reality therapy wouldn’t hurt him, after all.”

Hopefully, we would all pitch in and help you get back on your feet, without passing judgement on you in any way.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It is true that one of the causes of poverty is drug and alcohol abuse. But it is not the only cause. Since you work with the poor, obviously you already know this.

Certainly. But if we could somehow “cure” every alcoholic and drug abuser, and give every one of them a good education, we would go a long way to reducing proverty in this country.

Lack of appropriate education, poor judgement or bad timing with regard to investments, war, and natural disasters are all causes of poverty. Most of these things are not under anyone’s personal control - if you were to end up homeless tomorrow because your investment portfolio goes belly-up, I should hope that everyone on this Forum would not say, “Well, obviously Vern is some kind of a drug addict, or else he wouldn’t be poor - let him stew in his own juices until he sobers up - a little reality therapy wouldn’t hurt him, after all.”

Now why would anyone say that?

But let me point out we are Catholics – monotheists. It won’t do to worship at the altar of Fortuna. Some people do, indeed have bad luck – but the majority of people make their luck. As you mentioned above, bad judgement plays a big role in how you fare in life.

So we need to focus on those things we can do, not those due to “luck” and so on.

The first and foremost of these is education. Among the other things we can do is institute a rational system of delivering healthcare – and I think I’ve exhaustively explained how MSAs play a role in that.

Hopefully, we would all pitch in and help you get back on your feet, without passing judgement on you in any way.

I’ll run right down to the mailbox and see if your check has arrived.

 

[jmcrae]

But let me point out we are Catholics – monotheists. It won’t do to worship at the altar of Fortuna. Some people do, indeed have bad luck – but the majority of people make their luck. As you mentioned above, bad judgement plays a big role in how you fare in life.

And everyone has a bad day, now and then - sometimes, a life-altering bad day. Many people throw themselves out a window after making an especially stupid decision, but the fall-out affects others, too. One of the homeless men who frequents our parish Church was actually a millionaire right up until his investment broker made one of those decisions, last September. The investment broker, of course, shot himself in the head, but the money is still gone - this fellow is living in our Church basement until he can pull his life back together.

The first and foremost of these is education. Among the other things we can do is institute a rational system of delivering healthcare – and I think I’ve exhaustively explained how MSAs play a role in that.

Tax-exempted savings accounts are a great idea, but one does need money, and taxes from which to exempt it, first, before one can put it into a savings account.

I’ll run right down to the mailbox and see if your check has arrived.

 

[jmcrae]

Certainly. But if we could somehow “cure” every alcoholic and drug abuser, and give every one of them a good education, we would go a long way to reducing proverty in this country.

I agree with this. One of the reasons I think it’s so important to work with young people is in order to apply preventative medicine to the plague of addiction.

 

[goofyjim]

Certainly. But if we could somehow “cure” every alcoholic and drug abuser, and give every one of them a good education, we would go a long way to reducing proverty in this country.

Now why would anyone say that?

But let me point out we are Catholics – monotheists. It won’t do to worship at the altar of Fortuna. Some people do, indeed have bad luck – but the majority of people make their luck. As you mentioned above, bad judgement plays a big role in how you fare in life.

So we need to focus on those things we can do, not those due to “luck” and so on.

The first and foremost of these is education. Among the other things we can do is institute a rational system of delivering healthcare – and I think I’ve exhaustively explained how MSAs play a role in that.

I’ll run right down to the mailbox and see if your check has arrived.

It is not worshipping luck. Some are given different talents such as to be an accountant or a lawyer. Even in a free market system these trades carry different values. You should know by now that we cannot all be one or the other because that would thendrive the value down. So the majority do not make their luck. Otherwise in your dreamworld we would all be millionaires without a care in the world. We have just as much moral obligation to provide healthcare for everyone as we do to provide education or food and shelter. How we go about doing that can take on many shapes and forms and one solution, even yours, is not guaranteed for all.

 

[catharina]

To the best of my knowledge, most addictions are classified as diseases - with a strong genetic predisposition found, in terms of alcoholism at least. This has been the case for more than FIFTY years. As long as we insist the medical issues of addiction are instead MORAL issues (and therefore unworthy of care, treatment and concern), plenty of people can say: “Well, heck, Dorothy, it serves those rotten folks right. Let’s don’t help THEM.” Come on!

 

[vern_humphrey]

And everyone has a bad day, now and then - sometimes, a life-altering bad day. Many people throw themselves out a window after making an especially stupid decision, but the fall-out affects others, too. One of the homeless men who frequents our parish Church was actually a millionaire right up until his investment broker made one of those decisions, last September. The investment broker, of course, shot himself in the head, but the money is still gone - this fellow is living in our Church basement until he can pull his life back together.

And no one denies such things happen. But they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Or to put it another way, show me a man who lost his life savings and I will show you a thousand who neglected to have any life savings.

Tax-exempted savings accounts are a great idea, but one does need money, and taxes from which to exempt it, first, before one can put it into a savings account.

And most of us have money – I showed how a person making minimum wage all his life could be a millionaire (adjusted for inflation, yet) if allowed to keep and invest his FICA tax (including the “employer’s contribution” – which the employee earns, of course.)

And far more of us would have money – serious money – and the country as a whole would be far better off if we committed ourselves to give every child a first class education – and did it.

 

[jmcrae]

And most of us have money – I showed how a person making minimum wage all his life could be a millionaire (adjusted for inflation, yet) if allowed to keep and invest his FICA tax (including the “employer’s contribution” – which the employee earns, of course.)

Your figures did not account for his day-to-day expenses. Most people on minimum wage do not have a lot of discretionary spending money, unless they are living at home, rent-free.

And far more of us would have money – serious money – and the country as a whole would be far better off if we committed ourselves to give every child a first class education – and did it.

I agree that things would be much improved if everyone had a good and appropriate education.

 

[goofyjim]

And no one denies such things happen. But they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Or to put it another way, show me a man who lost his life savings and I will show you a thousand who neglected to have any life savings.

And most of us have money – I showed how a person making minimum wage all his life could be a millionaire (adjusted for inflation, yet) if allowed to keep and invest his FICA tax (including the “employer’s contribution” – which the employee earns, of course.)

And far more of us would have money – serious money – and the country as a whole would be far better off if we committed ourselves to give every child a first class education – and did it.

There is a return of FICA taxes called the earned income credit. If someone is earning minimum wage they probably qualify. But then they still can’t pay the rent at minimum wage or other bills like electric, and heat and water, and trash. So how does someone at minimum wage ever become a millionaire?