Should broke people receive health care?

[vern_humphrey]

Your figures did not account for his day-to-day expenses. Most people on minimum wage do not have a lot of discretionary spending money, unless they are living at home, rent-free.

And the FICA tax doesn’t allow for day-to-day expenses. The money is taken, right off the top, by force of law.

So a person on mimimum wage can save over $1,700 a year – because he alredy does save that much. It’s taken from him in the form of the FICA tax.

Now, if that money went into a reasonable investment program, instead of being ripped off and squandered by the government, he wouldn’t see a penny less in actual take-home pay. But when he reached retirement age, he’d have more than a million and a half.

I agree that things would be much improved if everyone had a good and appropriate education.

But where is our committment to that? Our Catholic schools are closing down and attempts to hold the Public School system accountable (like No Child Left Behind) are fought tooth and nail by the education establishment.

And it isn’t because we don’t put enough money in the system – here in Arkansas (currently 48th in the nation economically) we pay an average of $9,000 per child per year. That’s enough to put them through Harvard!!

 

[goofyjim]

And the FICA tax doesn’t allow for day-to-day expenses. The money is taken, right off the top, by force of law.

So a person on mimimum wage can save over $1,700 a year – because he alredy does save that much. It’s taken from him in the form of the FICA tax.

Now, if that money went into a reasonable investment program, instead of being ripped off and squandered by the government, he wouldn’t see a penny less in actual take-home pay. But when he reached retirement age, he’d have more than a million and a half.

But where is our committment to that? Our Catholic schools are closing down and attempts to hold the Public School system accountable (like No Child Left Behind) are fought tooth and nail by the education establishment.

And it isn’t because we don’t put enough money in the system – here in Arkansas (currently 48th in the nation economically) we pay an average of $9,000 per child per year. That’s enough to put them through Harvard!!

Let the education system work through charity as well. Vern, you’re afraid to pay taxes to help with someone’s healthcare yet you require me, who has no children to pay taxes to help with someone’s education. Now does that seem right?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Let the education system work through charity as well. Vern, you’re afraid to pay taxes to help with someone’s healthcare yet you require me, who has no children to pay taxes to help with someone’s education. Now does that seem right?

Excuse me?!?!

How many times have I said those who cannot pay all their health care (and those who can pay none at all) should be helped?

Have I not made it clear how this is to be done?

Just for the record, I would base it on the income tax return, and those who received help would get it based on their declared adjusted income. The government would pay some part of the catestrophic health coverage and some part of each medical treatment – up to 100% for those who had no money.

 

[goofyjim]

Excuse me?!?!

How many times have I said those who cannot pay all their health care (and those who can pay none at all) should be helped?

Have I not made it clear how this is to be done?

Just for the record, I would base it on the income tax return, and those who received help would get it based on their declared adjusted income. The government would pay some part of the catestrophic health coverage and some part of each medical treatment – up to 100% for those who had no money.

Then education shoudl work the same way. Those who have the means pay the whole thing. The assistance should only go towards those who cannot pay.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There is a return of FICA taxes called the earned income credit. If someone is earning minimum wage they probably qualify. But then they still can’t pay the rent at minimum wage or other bills like electric, and heat and water, and trash. So how does someone at minimum wage ever become a millionaire?

By depositing their FICA taxes into an investment account, instead of letting the government rip it off.

 

[goofyjim]

By depositing their FICA taxes into an investment account, instead of letting the government rip it off.

You’re missing the points made here that at minimum wage even with no FICA taxes one is unable to save anything. Have you ever tried paying rent and other necessities on minimum wage? Even with no taxes it is impossible.

 

[vern_humphrey]

To the best of my knowledge, most addictions are classified as diseases - with a strong genetic predisposition found, in terms of alcoholism at least. This has been the case for more than FIFTY years. As long as we insist the medical issues of addiction are instead MORAL issues (and therefore unworthy of care, treatment and concern), plenty of people can say: “Well, heck, Dorothy, it serves those rotten folks right. Let’s don’t help THEM.” Come on!

Pardon me, but are you under the impression that anyone on these forums disagrees that alcoholism and drug addiction have genetic predispositions?

Who is this “we” who insist the medical issues of addiction are instead MORAL issues (and therefore unworthy of care, treatment and concern)?

 

[catharina]

Pardon me, but are you under the impression that anyone on these forums disagrees that alcoholism and drug addiction have genetic predispositions?

Who is this “we” who insist the medical issues of addiction are instead MORAL issues (and therefore unworthy of care, treatment and concern)?

In regard to anyone, only you, vern, based on this post:

"Originally Posted by vern humphrey
The thing that is broken is that so many people who can pay for their healthcare won’t – and throw the burden on the rest of us.

I will give you an example that I am dealing with right now – “Bill” was just paroled from prison (from his second term.) He walked away from the work-release program (a violation of his parole) and went to live with his mother – supporting himself by burglary.

“Sally” who is married to a truck driver (who makes more than the median salary) took her three kids to live with Bill. She’s a Certified Nursing Assistant, but she used up all her sick leave and vacation to be with Bill.

Sally and Bill decided to have a party – they drove to another county (Bill driving, another violation of the terms of his parole) and bought alcohol (another violation of the terms of his parole) and then ran off the road and hit a tree.

Both of them were hospitalized.

Who should pay for their medical care?

And are you willing to see your insurance go up because of the expenses associated with their recklessness?"

---

If you are not implying that their “recklessness” is free choice rather than a possibly untreated medical need, then do forgive me***.

 

[cainem]

I haven’t read through all the responses to this thread but great nations like the U,S should treat it’s citizens to health care regardless of ability to pay, i’m sure you all pay enough taxes as it is for the government to see to it

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you are not implying that their “recklessness” is free choice rather than a possibly untreated medical need, then do forgive me.

Bill committed burglary because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Sally **left her husband **because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Bill **walked away from his work-release program **because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Just what would that “possibly untreated medical need be?”

 

[catharina]

Bill committed burglary because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Sally **left her husband **because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Bill **walked away from his work-release program **because of “a possibly untreated medical need?”

Just what would that “possibly untreated medical need be?”

As you said:

"Originally Posted by vern humphrey
The thing that is broken is that so many people who can pay for their healthcare won’t – and throw the burden on the rest of us.

I will give you an example that I am dealing with right now – “Bill” was just paroled from prison (from his second term.) He walked away from the work-release program (a violation of his parole) and went to live with his mother – supporting himself by burglary.

“Sally” who is married to a truck driver (who makes more than the median salary) took her three kids to live with Bill. She’s a Certified Nursing Assistant, but she used up all her sick leave and vacation to be with Bill.

Sally and Bill decided to have a party – they drove to another county (Bill driving, another violation of the terms of his parole) and bought alcohol (another violation of the terms of his parole) and then ran off the road and hit a tree.

Both of them were hospitalized.

Who should pay for their medical care?

And are you willing to see your insurance go up because of the expenses associated with their recklessness?"

**
To me, both sound like addicts. That would be my first guess upon seeing them in a healthcare setting. First guess re shared drug of choice? Alcohol. “Mature adults” (HA!), one the mother of three children whose lives she de-stabilized to a phenomal degree? To celebrate togetherness, they decide to “PARTY” with alcohol? Huh??? This sounds NORMAL? or alcohol-related?

Having worked with addicts for decades (while never having been one) I’m making my best guess. Best guess: evaluate for drug addictions then get treatment.**

 

[vern_humphrey]

To me, both sound like addicts. That would be my first guess upon seeing them in a healthcare setting. First guess re shared drug of choice? Alcohol. “Mature adults” (HA!), one the mother of three children whose lives she de-stabilized to a phenomal degree? To celebrate togetherness, they decide to “PARTY” with alcohol? Huh??? This sounds NORMAL? or alcohol-related?

And you diagnose that without ever meeting them?

Did you pick up on the fact that Sally was a CNA? Alcoholism and drug abuse is a no-no in that profession.

You seem to be saying that first of all, by recounting what happened and asking how to help them I have somehow been unPolitically Correct. Yet you brand them as alcoholics without ever meeting them.

 

[catharina]

And you diagnose that without ever meeting them?

Did you pick up on the fact that Sally was a CNA? Alcoholism and drug abuse is a no-no in that profession.

You seem to be saying that first of all, by recounting what happened and asking how to help them I have somehow been unPolitically Correct. Yet you brand them as alcoholics without ever meeting them.

Heavens. PC? Who cares???

I’m saying that two adults got together, messed with the lives of three children, did their thoughtless “party” thing (among other things) and the fire met the wall when a run was made for alcohol. Sally’s a CNA. Yes.

Did you pick up on the fact that alcoholism is known among the doctors and nurses - and CNAs? It’s non-discriminatory in that way. When adults join forces to act in such a way that children’s lives are affected, sure I ask about any drug abuse. Who wouldn’t?

It’s a very logical question.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Heavens. PC? Who cares???

From your posts and your accusations, I got the impression **you **do.

I’m saying that two adults got together, messed with the lives of three children, did their thoughtless “party” thing (among other things) and the fire met the wall when a run was made for alcohol. Sally’s a CNA. Yes.

But Bill wasn’t drunk when he left the work-release program. Sally wasn’t drunk when she left her husband. Bill wasn’t drunk when he burglarized neighbors’ homes. Nor when he got behind the wheel of a car in violation of his parole.

Did you pick up on the fact that alcoholism is known among the doctors and nurses - and CNAs?

I know several who have been fired and/or lost their licenses for substance abuse. And some who wound up in prison.

It’s non-discriminatory in that way. When adults join forces to act in such a way that children’s lives are affected, sure I ask about any drug abuse. Who wouldn’t?

As I pointed out, Bill wasn’t drunk when he left the work-release program. Sally wasn’t drunk when she left her husband. Bill wasn’t drunk when he burglarized neighbors’ homes. Nor when he got behind the wheel of a car in violation of his parole.

It’s a very logical question.

And if it had been a question, it would be different – but it wasn’t. You couched it as an accusation.

 

[catharina]

From your posts and your accusations, I got the impression **you **do.

But Bill wasn’t drunk when he left the work-release program. Sally wasn’t drunk when she left her husband. Bill wasn’t drunk when he burglarized neighbors’ homes. Nor when he got behind the wheel of a car in violation of his parole.

I know several who have been fired and/or lost their licenses for substance abuse. And some who wound up in prison.

As I pointed out, Bill wasn’t drunk when he left the work-release program. Sally wasn’t drunk when she left her husband. Bill wasn’t drunk when he burglarized neighbors’ homes. Nor when he got behind the wheel of a car in violation of his parole.

And if it had been a question, it would be different – but it wasn’t. You couched it as an accusation.

Fine. Let me make it my very best guess again. No accusation.

I CARE because the Poor Laws, alive and well, since England broke with the Church and in place in this country since FOREVER (some changes now) speak to the Deserving Poor and the UNDESERVING Poor. The Undeserving being all Catholics - and those who seem to be reckless, lazy, unreasoning (and still, probably Catholic). Their “recklessness” is a non-starter for me since it’s most likely related to the heart of the matter - drug abuse, most likely a little too much love/need for the bottle. This is also more likely to be seen when one partners up with another who shares the love for the bottle.

You accused them of “recklessness” and I accuse them of addiction. Your judgment is moral, mine is a medical guess that speaks to a medical need that requires medical treatment. The tire met the road in a run out of county for alcohol. Got it. No more questions - at least no conclusion about “recklessness” and if they deserve medical care. When did the situation go down the tubes? When they made a drive to buy their drug.

You know doctors/nurses who lost licenses? Fine. Then why pretend to anyone that Sally’s problem might not be the SAME? An alcoholic who has not recieved sufficient treatment is as likely to act out in anger or craziness as one who’s still drinking since an alcoholic is still an alcoholic. Ever hear the expression “Dry Drunk?”

 

[goofyjim]

Fine. Let me make it my very best guess again. No accusation.

I CARE because the Poor Laws, alive and well, since England broke with the Church and in place in this country since FOREVER (some changes now) speak to the Deserving Poor and the UNDESERVING Poor. The Undeserving being all Catholics - and those who seem to be reckless, lazy, unreasoning (and still, probably Catholic). Their “recklessness” is a non-starter for me since it’s most likely related to the heart of the matter - drug abuse, most likely a little too much love/need for the bottle. This is also more likely to be seen when one partners up with another who shares the love for the bottle.

You accused them of “recklessness” and I accuse them of addiction. Your judgment is moral, mine is a medical guess that speaks to a medical need that requires medical treatment. The tire met the road in a run out of county for alcohol. Got it. No more questions - at least no conclusion about “recklessness” and if they deserve medical care. When did the situation go down the tubes? When they made a drive to buy their drug.

You know doctors/nurses who lost licenses? Fine. Then why pretend to anyone that Sally’s problem might not be the SAME? An alcoholic who has not recieved sufficient treatment is as likely to act out in anger or craziness as one who’s still drinking since an alcoholic is still an alcoholic. Ever hear the expression “Dry Drunk?”

I have to agree with you on this one. Alcoholism is a disease that must be treated and we should not withhold treatment based on our judgements of responsibility. I know a young friend who is addicted because both parents refuse to take any interest in him. Sounds like the parents are more responsible for his problems than he is personally.

 

[jmcrae]

I have to agree with you on this one. Alcoholism is a disease that must be treated and we should not withhold treatment based on our judgements of responsibility. I know a young friend who is addicted because both parents refuse to take any interest in him. Sounds like the parents are more responsible for his problems than he is personally.

Sorry, but if he is over the age of 18 and living away from his parents, he cannot blame them for his problems any more - he has two feet, two hands, and a brain; it is up to him to identify and then solve his own problems - yes, with a doctor’s help, and whatever other help he may need, but without laying blame on his parents.

I have no patience with the “blame game” - parents are imperfect beings, and sometimes they make terrible mistakes - we have to make a conscious choice to survive beyond all that, and become the best people we can be. If you are forty years old and your father was a raging alcoholic, nobody except your family physician should be able to tell.

 

[goofyjim]

Sorry, but if he is over the age of 18 and living away from his parents, he cannot blame them for his problems any more - he has two feet, two hands, and a brain; it is up to him to identify and then solve his own problems - yes, with a doctor’s help, and whatever other help he may need, but without laying blame on his parents.

I have no patience with the “blame game” - parents are imperfect beings, and sometimes they make terrible mistakes - we have to make a conscious choice to survive beyond all that, and become the best people we can be. If you are forty years old and your father was a raging alcoholic, nobody except your family physician should be able to tell.

But if he never had the proper upbringing from his parents this creates an emotional imbalance caused by them. You can blame them. The parents must take responsibility in the formative years for turning out a responsible adult. Only then can you blame the individual adult for his choices. I’m not calling for perfect parents but if you knew the situation a little better you wouldn’t state what you did. Therein lies the lack of compassion on the part of some.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, but if he is over the age of 18 and living away from his parents, he cannot blame them for his problems any more - he has two feet, two hands, and a brain; it is up to him to identify and then solve his own problems - yes, with a doctor’s help, and whatever other help he may need, but without laying blame on his parents.

I have no patience with the “blame game” - parents are imperfect beings, and sometimes they make terrible mistakes - we have to make a conscious choice to survive beyond all that, and become the best people we can be. If you are forty years old and your father was a raging alcoholic, nobody except your family physician should be able to tell.

I don’t mean to offend anybody, but for people who “know” about and “work with” substance addicts (including alcoholics), some of us have a strange gap in our knowledge. Let me try to remedy that:

There really is no “cure” for substance abuse, only treatment. Treatment is successful only in proportion to the effort the addict puts out.

And the great problem in getting the addict to put out the effort needed is the meddling of enablers. An enabler is a person who makes excuses for addicts, tells them it isn’t their fault, shields them from the consequences of their actions and so on.

Do you think we have any enablers on this echo?

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t mean to offend anybody, but for people who “know” about and “work with” substance addicts (including alcoholics), some of us have a strange gap in our knowledge. Let me try to remedy that:

There really is no “cure” for substance abuse, only treatment. Treatment is successful only in proportion to the effort the addict puts out.

And the great problem in getting the addict to put out the effort needed is the meddling of enablers. An enabler is a person who makes excuses for addicts, tells them it isn’t their fault, shields them from the consequences of their actions and so on.

Do you think we have any enablers on this echo?

So you think it is all just a rosy idea of the addict taking charge of himself and quitting? My friend’s troubles stem from idiotic parents who didn’t bring him up properly. Yes I do put the blame on them. Just like I put the sexual problems on the blame of a parent who abuses the child. That is not enabling by any means. It is being practical. One cannot help another quit an addiction without looking at the underlying causes and it is not always a willful choice to begin an addiction. And the beat goes on…