Should "Cafeteria Catholics" just become Protestant?

[guanophore]

I find this offensive. I know you have faith God’s revealed truth is infallibly found in fullness only within the Catholic Church. But that does not mean I or others make ourselves the “begining and the end” or that I seem to have no place for God.

Perhaps you don’t realize what you are claiming, and when it is given back to you, you find it offensive?

Guanophore and Prodigal Son 1, all I wish to assert is **we begin and end with faith. ** Be it in a Creator God, the New Testament or whatever we place faith in. An atheist does not place faith in the former. A person of Jewish faith might not in the latter. A Muslim perhaps not in the Christian Bible. And so on with various faiths.

You are talking from the royal “we” here, and you place yourselves among all those non-Catholics you list here.

Your premise is that each person decides what they want to beleive, and then they act on that in faith.

Your premise is that no on can “know” what it Truth, that everyone finds it on their own spiritual path.

Your path, and those you include in the royal “we” above, begins and ends with faith, whatever you decide to believe. Since the Truth cannot be known, you say, you walk by faith, not by sight. So you base everything on your faith, what you believe to be true for yourself.

Why should that offend you? You have been saying the same thing for months. I read it in nearly every thread in which you post.

The reason I say there is no room for God in your theology is that you say the Truth cannot be known - there is no place for God to objectively reveal himself to you, and you to know of a certainty that it is Truth. You say none of us can know for sure, till Jesus comes again. He has essentially left us all orphaned, failed to fulfill His promises to the Church. He did not really send the HS to lead us into all Truth. Instead, he left us alone to our “faith”, to pick and choose each one of us where we want to put our “faith”.

Since God has not revealed HImself, and God cannot be proven by science, all that is left is your own interpreations and your own faith. You place your faith in your interpretations. It begins and ends with you.

Notice you don’t say that you put your faith in anything related to God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

to the OP…We shouldn’t distance people from the Church, as though Jesus Christ, the center of our faith, is too weak to bear our weaknesses. The Protestant temptation is always lurking, and we at times may find it easy to give into. Including calling it out as a “remedy” for our brothers and sisters, who are baptized with us in Jesus Christ, yet may struggle.

All sin and fall short, and all are called to return, wounded, to Christ. He is the only remedy.

 

[BernadetteM]

I recall a statement from the Holy Father saying that he would rather have a purer Church and smaller. This from our Vicar of Christ.

If one is a Catholic who doesn’t practice the fullness of the faith, then education would be the answer for some of them. However, there are many who stay in the Church because they have an agenda to change the teachings/doctrines. They have brought much confusion and there are many priests and Bishops who have not corrected these Catholics and continue to allow them to lead others astray.

It would be wonderful to have adult education starting at the age of 18 that is expected of those Catholics who do not understand the reason for many of the teachings of the Church. One may correct me if I am wrong, but in the early Church, ones who did not follow the teachings were denied the Sacraments until they confessed and accepted the fullness of the faith.

Today Bishops allow public figures to promote non Catholic views to the public and are still given Communion. The final solution is that the Bishops start to abide by the teachings of the Church. If our leaders have gone astray, what can we expect from lay Catholics?

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[CMatt25]

Some of my premises and where I put my faith have been misinterpreted here. But I would just say to answer the OP’s question… Given the fact the Catholic Church from my understanding calls them Catholic, I’d then leave it up to the Catholic in question whether they remain or whether they become a Protestant. As I would fear distancing people might only serve to push them further out the door. But if Benedict did indeed say he would rather have a purer if smaller Church, then I suppose that might be one way to achieve it. The only question I might have then would be if all fall from perfection, if you do push out all the sinners, how many are going to be left in the pews? But in any case everyone have a most blessed, joyous Happy Easter.

 

[Davina100]

I’ve actually heard many people say that annullment is the Catholic version of divorce b/c they are given out so easily.

I honestly am not educated enough to know for sure if this is true or not.

I don’t know how it is in other dioceses but in mine I know of quite a few who were denied annullments.

It shouldn’t be different from one to another. That makes it seem arbitrary and inconsistent.

 

[Davina100]

My question to you would be (if you are a cafeteria catholic) why do you stay? Wouldn’t you feel right at home in the Episcopal Church? I am just curious. I am not asking you to leave by any means. That is not my intention. My desire for you is to learn our Roman Catholic teachings and understand why the church teaches what she does… it will be right there in the bible for you to see. Once you understand the teachings you will become accepting of them. I ask this of all ‘cafeteria catholics’ because I do want them to stay within our church. You are already Catholic and once you become educated on the teachings, will be easier to see the full beauty of our church. You will want to do what is right. Please give it a try… You will become a devoted catholic. I will pray for you. OK?

In regards to the “behind the times” spiel. A sin is a sin as it was then and will be a sin tomorrow… and beyond.

I was a cafeteria catholic. I never thought about leaving the church and I am glad that I never did.
Once I started to truly learn about our faith it all started to fall into place. The things we did weren’t just made up but actually in scripture.
I started realizing what the church taught and why it taught it. I saw that my opinions were based on what the world thought was right or convenient. Living life the way Jesus taught us to live is so much harder and isn;t always going to be popular.

I don’t think that cafeteria catholics should become protestant. But I do think that the Catholic church needs to teach better what it is we believe and why we believe it.

When people talk about the church needing to get with the times there isn’t a whole lot different know than back in biblical times. There was sin then, sin now. Disobedience to God was and is at the heart of it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Guanophore and Prodigal Son 1, all I wish to assert is we begin and end with faith. Be it in a Creator God, the New Testament or whatever we place faith in. An atheist does not place faith in the former. A person of Jewish faith might not in the latter. A Muslim perhaps not in the Christian Bible. And so on with various faiths. You both have faith the Catholic Church is/remains the Church Jesus founded. And that the Catholic Church holds all revealed truth and authority. That’s great. That’s your faith. And another Christian may have a different faith. Sure some of us of faith may believe with absolute certainty that we know our faith is the truth. But I say it’s still faith because if everything was so clearly certain everyone would be of one faith. But this is not the case.

I know there are some who think unless someone is a fully adhering Catholic that they either are improperly catechized or ill-informed. Or are not versed in Church history. But there are probably Protestants, some, not all I am sure, who have studied Church history and tradition, who nevertheless still come away with a different faith than Catholic. There may be Catholics who even though perhaps properly catechized and informed, who nevertheless might in conscience be “cafeteria” on some point. We walk in faith with what interpretations we place faith in. It’s not proven science.

I hope this helped as I can not explain, assert, suggest or elaborate much better than I have. My communication skills may be lacking. But God bless you both and all who journey on this earth. Peace to all.

Matt I don’t know if it’s intentional, or not, but you haven’t answered my question. How do you know what parts of scriptures can be ignored?

 

[estesbob]

But there are probably Protestants, some, not all I am sure, who have studied Church history and tradition, who nevertheless still come away with a different faith than Catholic. There may be Catholics who even though perhaps properly catechized and informed, who nevertheless might in conscience be “cafeteria” on some point. We walk in faith with what interpretations we place faith in. It’s not proven science.

.

And therein lies the problem you refuse to acknowledge. . It Protestants reviewed church history and arrived at a different version of the truth than the Catholic Church’s we have a insurmountable conflict. There simply cannot be multiple versions of the truths.

It would be one thing if Protestants had left and themselves clung to one truth but that is not what happened. Once they rejected the authority of the church they split off in the thousands and thousands of different directions. Unless one buys into universalism only one of these dueling versions of the truth can be correct. It seems obvious to me since only one Church has maintained the same teachings since the day Jesus founded his Church that everyone else is searching in vain.

 

[elvisman]

that might have been Newman’s opinion, but times they are a changing…as someone else has said here: If once, it was that to be steeped in history was to cease being Protestant, then now it is that to be more greatly steeped in history is to cease being Catholic

**Spoken like a TRUE, dyed-in-the-wool protestant who thinks that because his mind can change about the truth - God’s mind must change also.

**God doesn’t change, friend - even if you do . . .

 

[GaryTaylor]

And therein lies the problem you refuse to acknowledge. . It Protestants reviewed church history and arrived at a different version of the truth than the Catholic Church’s we have a insurmountable conflict. There simply cannot be multiple versions of the truths.

It would be one thing if Protestants had left and themselves clung to one truth but that is not what happened. Once they rejected the authority of the church they split off in the thousands and thousands of different directions. Unless one buys into universalism only one of these dueling versions of the truth can be correct. It seems obvious to me since only one Church has maintained the same teachings since the day Jesus founded his Church that everyone else is searching in vain.

And when you say seaching in vain Bob a better statement couldn’t be applied. We have reached a time when the Pope is called the Antichrist.

Its become a process now of “Just throw any old dirt at the Catholic Church”. And had we another 500 years to play round with that would be all well and fine. But we have some serious problems on our doorstep and non of the nonsense serves Gods Kingdom or mankind on earth one iota. Certainly this has become clear in a predominate Protestant USA?

One can’t help wonder if its ignorance or pure evil, or a combination of the both. But many souls will be lost over nonsense. And in my heart I believe people know better, so in truth then they lead souls astray intentionally.

There are not many truths, there’s ONE.

 

[Lapey]

Some of my premises and where I put my faith have been misinterpreted here. Sorry Matt, everyone of us who have had discussions with you could go back and produce your statements to show that what Guan said is exactly true, with your words. You need to go back and do some soul searching, he has struck a nerve in you. Take it and look within yourself for the truth in you. At this point you are not even sure what you believe, this is what you said to me a couple of days ago about authority. I wish you well and I ask God to lead you in His Spirit back home!!! God bless and Happy Easter. But I would just say to answer the OP’s question… Given the fact the Catholic Church from my understanding calls them Catholic, I’d then leave it up to the Catholic in question whether they remain or whether they become a Protestant. As I would fear distancing people might only serve to push them further out the door. But if Benedict did indeed say he would rather have a purer if smaller Church, then I suppose that might be one way to achieve it. The only question I might have then would be if all fall from perfection, if you do push out all the sinners,If you push all sinners out, there won’t be anyone left, not even Pope B16, he goes to confession more than most Catholics. That is not what he menas. how many are going to be left in the pews? But in any case everyone have a most blessed, joyous Happy Easter.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Guanophore and Prodigal Son 1, all I wish to assert is we begin and end with faith. Be it in a Creator God, the New Testament or whatever we place faith in. An atheist does not place faith in the former. A person of Jewish faith might not in the latter. A Muslim perhaps not in the Christian Bible. And so on with various faiths. You both have faith the Catholic Church is/remains the Church Jesus founded. And that the Catholic Church holds all revealed truth and authority. That’s great. That’s your faith. And another Christian may have a different faith. Sure some of us of faith may believe with absolute certainty that we know our faith is the truth. But I say it’s still faith because if everything was so clearly certain everyone would be of one faith. But this is not the case.

I know there are some who think unless someone is a fully adhering Catholic that they either are improperly catechized or ill-informed. Or are not versed in Church history. But there are probably Protestants, some, not all I am sure, who have studied Church history and tradition, who nevertheless still come away with a different faith than Catholic. There may be Catholics who even though perhaps properly catechized and informed, who nevertheless might in conscience be “cafeteria” on some point. We walk in faith with what interpretations we place faith in. It’s not proven science.

I hope this helped as I can not explain, assert, suggest or elaborate much better than I have. My communication skills may be lacking. But God bless you both and all who journey on this earth. Peace to all.

While it may not be a ‘proven science’ we know that Christ built a Church, chose and appointed men over that Church and gave them specific instructions, all of which may not have been written down according to the Gospel of John (John 20:30, John 21:25). Reading scriptures we see that there was uniformity in the teachings, evident in the many letters to different people, all teaching the same thing.

Your statement of ‘scriptures says many things’, as if somethings are not important, not only causes division with your beliefs and Catholic beliefs, it probably divides you with many Protestants as well. I don’t see how that unifies?

 

[Radical]

Spoken like a TRUE, dyed-in-the-wool protestant who thinks that because *his *mind can change about the truth - God’s mind must change also.

this sort of mischaracterization of my position is unfortunate…but I guess it makes you feel better about your beliefs. We are all pursuing the truth. It is like the situation when science proved that the earth revolved around the sun (contrary to the CC’s position that the Bible stated otherwise). It wasn’t as if God changed or that the truth changed…it was that an error in belief was corrected. It is the same with history…the CC has made certain claims regarding what the ECFs believed and now historians are establishing that those claims contain errors (self-serving errors to be precise). It seems that instead of admitting the situation you cling to that misinformed version of history that props up your beliefs and resort to dismissing the the better scholarship as the work of “revisionists” …one can tell you that the emperor has no clothes, but you’ll still see what you want.

**God *doesn’t ***change, friend - even if you do . . .

man’s knowledge of history changes (even if it doesn’t suit you)

 

[elvisman]

this sort of mischaracterization of my position is unfortunate…but I guess it makes you feel better about your beliefs. We are all pursuing the truth. It is like the situation when science proved that the earth revolved around the sun (contrary to the CC’s position that the Bible stated otherwise). It wasn’t as if God changed or that the truth changed…it was that an error in belief was corrected. It is the same with history…the CC has made certain claims regarding what the ECFs believed and now historians are establishing that those claims contain errors (self-serving errors to be precise). It seems that instead of admitting the situation you cling to that misinformed version of history that props up your beliefs and resort to dismissing the the better scholarship as the work of “revisionists” …one can tell you that the emperor has no clothes, but you’ll still see what you want.

man’s knowledge of history changes (even if it doesn’t suit you)

I was respnding to your ridiculous charge against Cardinal Newman’s statement about being steeped in history is to cease being Protestant.
**He was speaking of the Early Church when he made that statement because of the glaringly obvious Catholicity of it. *That *hasn’t changed, my friend and it never wil. **

It was what it was - Catholic in it’s beliefs and practices.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We are all pursuing the truth.

The truth is that there’s only one truth and its the Sovereign Truth which is Jesus Christ. This truth He passed on to His Apostles with the intention that they should establish Jesus Christs Kingdom on Earth. And they did exactly this with the Catholic Church.

That Truth still exists on Earth as its been told in prophecy that it always would. Should a man make a error, it changes nothing of the fact that Jesus Christ established His church on earth. Nor does it make it right for a man to leave crying foul by another man. It just indicates nore human error on that mans part.

Those not in communion with Rome are simply in error and holding on to human thinking instead of abiding by Gods Will. There’s no right in this. And as we see in 2011 with the mulititude of Protestant denominations this only confirms the wrongs.

No different than Cafeteria Catholics, Protestants also should be constantly encouraged to seek the Sovereign Truth. And there’s only one Truth in regards to the church Jesus Christ established. And that is the Catholic Church. Regardless of what thinks about the error, nothing detracts from that Truth.

God Bless, Gary

 

[estesbob]

this sort of mischaracterization of my position is unfortunate…but I guess it makes you feel better about your beliefs. We are all pursuing the truth. It is like the situation when science proved that the earth revolved around the sun (contrary to the CC’s position that the Bible stated otherwise). It wasn’t as if God changed or that the truth changed…it was that an error in belief was corrected. It is the same with history…the CC has made certain claims regarding what the ECFs believed and now historians are establishing that those claims contain errors (self-serving errors to be precise). It seems that instead of admitting the situation you cling to that misinformed version of history that props up your beliefs and resort to dismissing the the better scholarship as the work of “revisionists” …one can tell you that the emperor has no clothes, but you’ll still see what you want.

man’s knowledge of history changes (even if it doesn’t suit you)

As is shown above the problem with these discussions is that most Protestantsbeleive that
Catholic history consists of only three things. The Crusades, Galileo and the Inquisition. They couple this with the using using the same flawed methodology that that use to personally interpret Scripture to personally interpret the writings of the early church fathers. Thus any apparent contradiction they might claim in these writings proves that the Catholic Church has been in error for its entire existence. Of course you can never quite pin them down about the fact that there is nothing even remotely resembling the theology inherent in the 10,000 different Protestant versions of the truth in anything the Church fathers or anybody else taught prior to the so-called Reformation.
.

 

[Serap]

How is he being uncharitable? He’s just asking questions – quite logical ones, I might add.

Disagreement does not equal being uncharitable.

it’s all in the tone. some people don’t understand that and they don’t want to.

 

[GaryTaylor]

it’s all in the tone. some people don’t understand that and they don’t want to.

Its all in the Tone? Thats what Stevie Ray Vaughn said.

 

[estesbob]

it’s all in the tone. some people don’t understand that and they don’t want to.

The truth is those who level charges charges of people being uncharitable, Pharisees, jugemental t,etec,etc generally do so to steer the discussion away from Catholic teachings they are uncomfortable with.

It would be helpful, for instance, if you could explain to us just exactly what you find uncharitable about:

While they both can’t be right can they? How do you determine what the truth is? And how do you explain it when you’re truth varies from thousands of others believe the truth is?

 

[RyanBlack]

The truth is those who level charges charges of people being uncharitable, Pharisees, jugemental t,etec,etc generally do so to steer the discussion away from Catholic teachings they are uncomfortable with.

It would be helpful, for instance, if you could explain to us just exactly what you find uncharitable about:

**

One might respond that the truth is that those who claim that “those who level charges charges of people being uncharitable, Pharisees, jugemental ,etc.,etc., generally do so to steer the discussion away from Catholic teachings they are uncomfortable with,” do so generally to avoid being confronted with the possibility that they are indeed uncharitable. My experience on this and one other Christian forum is that there are those who know how to speak the truth and do so in love. There are others who are quite good at speaking the truth, but they do so with great hatred in their hearts, or at least the way in which they speak the truth makes it seem so. I have seen some of both approaches in this thread.