Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[Cat]

Anyone who contributes to the Church, in whatever fashion or capacity gives of their time, effort and talent. It may surprise some people here but, even the diaconate where I am are not paid a salary, only expenses. Are musicians more important than deacons?
Not giving anyone the ‘stink eye’ as crudely suggested, but those arguing for paying those who do the music, would have to concede the same arguments for others involved in both the liturgical and pastoral life of the church. Not everyone gets paid, so why the special case scenario.?
So I suppose the question I’m posing is why just the musicians? I already know there’s more going on than just the hour or so at mass, but like I say, there is a lot of others doing stuff behind the scenes also.

Most music directors in bigger parishes are attempting to make their living and provide for their family. They don’t do the music director job PLUS another job (e.g., welder). They wouldn’t be able to do both jobs due to time constraints.

I have had several offers to direct music in various parishes in our city. I have to say no, because I make my living working full-time in a hospital. I don’t have the time to be a music director. I barely have the time to play at Masses, and at last once a month, I must refuse to play because I am scheduled every third weekend to work at the hospital.

But most DRE are not making a living at religious education. Same for deacons. Or the ladies who provide food for funerals–this is not their full-time job.

One more thing to keep in mind–there are many Protestants churches that can and DO pay their musicians, and pay them well. When I was growing up in the 1970s, the Music Director of our Protestant church (only 500 members) was paid a salary of 62,000.00 per year, plus an allowance for travel to various seminars and professional events.

Let’s say you have a good musician with a degree who is a Catholic. He wants to earn a living working as a church organist and music director. He has a wife and several children.

The Catholic diocese offers him $32,000.00 a year, and health care (at least for now).

He can earn over well over $60,000.00 or MORE in a large Protestant church, along with excellent benefits, and possibly a parsonage to live in (many senior pastors turn down the parsonage, preferring to purchase their own home, so sometimes, the parsonage is left vacant, or rented out to a non-pastor). Also, in the large Protestant church, he will have more freedom to play/sing/conduct what he wants to conduct–even the liturgical Protestant churches don’t have the limitations that many Catholic dioceses impose on their musicians.

So what should he do? What would YOU do? Honestly now–remember you have a wife and several children depending on you!

And what if the Catholic diocese tells him, “We will not pay you at all. You are privileged to serve the Lord and do not deserve a salary any more than the volunteer funeral cooks deserve a salary.”

What will he do then? What would YOU do?

 

[superamazingman]

Just out of curiosity, what does a musical director do outside of Mass?

hmm… do you think everyone picks up hymnals, turns to a random page, and the choir, organist, and everyone else all know exactly what to do? There’s these small things called “planning” and “rehearsal.”

 

[superamazingman]

I don’t always agree with you, Cat, but this is one area I agree with you strongly.

Musical talents are not often devolved easily. MDs and musicians should be compensated fairly according to their experience and education.

Congrats, by the way, on your progress on the organ! Keep it up, Cat.

 

[superamazingman]

Musicians aren’t even necessary for the mass. this is just such a ridiculous question.

Really? Vatican II stressed that music and singing is an integral part of the liturgy. It’s not just something nice we do. The most ideal form of the Mass is a sung Mass. Music does matter. Try reading that section in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

 

[dochawk]

If we’re talking about a full-time position, or a half-time position, of course it should be paid. If it’s a couple/few hours a week, it has no more reason to be paid than the other few hours a week job.

This allows for a high quality choir with technically difficult music. If the money is there, That’s what you should have.

“Technically difficult” sure sounds like “beyond what the laity can sing.” If so, it has no place in liturgy. To the extent that it is the choir/singer/whoever rather than the people, it should not be happening. Paying for such a usurpation is adding insult to injury. hawk

 

[Corki]

Really? Vatican II stressed that music and singing is an integral part of the liturgy. It’s not just something nice we do. The most ideal form of the Mass is a sung Mass. Music does matter. Try reading that section in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

The most ideal form is the chanted Mass. Sung but no musicians.

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

 

[agapewolf]

I can’t believe this is a question!​

Just out of curiosity, what does a musical director do outside of Mass? Is it a regular 9-5, 5 days a week? How much music is going on during the working week in a parish?

One can ask the same about the priest in the parish couldn’t they?

Here just SOME of my responsibilities:

-play at least 2 masses a week for the grade school
-teach the students the songs they will sing at mass:4 classes every other week
-Once a month liturgy committee meeting
-Once a week staff meeting
-Music planning committee meetings
-3 Sunday morning masses, and fill in for the saturday night crew when they can’t make it
-2 rehearsals a week with main groups.
-Book extra musicians for holidays such as Christmas and easter
-Research music for Christmas program, order, arrange
-copies of music
-transcribe music, arrange music, learn the music writing software,
-Make songsheets for various masses
-Play for the youth retreats, adoration and youth group nights
–be available for ANYTHING that pops up such as Living Rosary, adoration and mass to pray for elections, holy innocents mass, Thanksgiving mass,
–walk throughs of big liturgies like Holy Thursday and Easter vigil
-Extra rehearsals for big liturgies
-multiple holy day masses, and when these happen on a saturday, sometimes its an EIGHT MASS WEEKEND!!! with only 4 hours sleep in between Midnight mass and the first one the next morning.

That’s a start. and nowhere near even half of what I do.

 

[Cat]

The most ideal form is the chanted Mass. Sung but no musicians.

Have you ever heard non-musicians singing chant? I’m not talking about the priests or monks–these people ARE trained to sing. I’m talking about cantors or laypeople who aren’t trained in singing–have you ever heard them sing chant?

Believe me, this will cause even the most die-hard traditionalist Catholic to long for a silent Mass! Badly-done chant is dreadful.

I think this is one reason it doesn’t get done very often in OF Masses–many of us grew up after Vatican II and therefore never learned chant, and most of us did not learn chant in college in our music classes (and most converts NEVER did chant in their previous church lives), so no one knows how to do it, and it sounds like a chorus of injured kitties. We’ve tried it a few times in our OF parish, and I truly hate it because it’s so unpleasant to hear.

Besides, do you honestly think people just “pick up chant and do it?” Not at all. At the moment there is a sticky (I believe it’s in the Traditional Section of CAF) with a instruction guide teaching people to sing chant. WHO WROTE THAT? (Hint–it was probably a musician, or someone who was trained by a musician.)

And WHO trains people in local parishes to sing chant; who leads the Schola? It may be a volunteer layperson who just happens to have learned chant in their life. But most of the time, it will be a trained musician who has learned how to read and sing chant.

And WHO writes chant? (Musicians!)

Finally, even though the “most ideal form” of the Mass is chanted, honestly now, truly–do you think this is really going to happen in most cities and towns in the the United States of America?

It’s OK to dream, but there comes a time when we have to face reality, accept it, and learn to appreciate it and not pine for the dream.

And BTW, that’s one of my problems with not paying church musicians–Protestant churches do pay them. That’s reality.

 

[Julia_Mae]

That’s a start. and nowhere near even half of what I do.

And on average, how many funerals (sudden demand on time) and weddings (planned but requiring many meetings) do you play during a month?

 

[agapewolf]

And on average, how many funerals (sudden demand on time) and weddings (planned but requiring many meetings) do you play during a month?

Anywhere from 2 - 16

 

[johnnykins]

If we’re talking about a full-time position, or a half-time position, of course it should be paid. If it’s a couple/few hours a week, it has no more reason to be paid than the other few hours a week job. “Technically difficult” sure sounds like “beyond what the laity can sing.” If so, it has no place in liturgy. To the extent that it is the choir/singer/whoever rather than the people, it should not be happening. Paying for such a usurpation is adding insult to injury. hawk

nonsense - high quality technically difficult music has been one of the glories of the liturgy…the dumbing down of music to the dreck that is the usual fare at Mass today is an abomination. Kumbaya

BTW my experience is the congregation doesn’t sing at all - so much for “beyond what the laity can sing” - so we are left with poorly sung cruddy, insipid music. That’s what I see outside my parish (and very few others) - any one else?

 

[Sarabande]

One can ask the same about the priest in the parish couldn’t they?

Here just SOME of my responsibilities:

-play at least 2 masses a week for the grade school
-teach the students the songs they will sing at mass:4 classes every other week
-Once a month liturgy committee meeting
-Once a week staff meeting
-Music planning committee meetings
-3 Sunday morning masses, and fill in for the saturday night crew when they can’t make it
-2 rehearsals a week with main groups.
-Book extra musicians for holidays such as Christmas and easter
-Research music for Christmas program, order, arrange
-copies of music
-transcribe music, arrange music, learn the music writing software,
-Make songsheets for various masses
-Play for the youth retreats, adoration and youth group nights
–be available for ANYTHING that pops up such as Living Rosary, adoration and mass to pray for elections, holy innocents mass, Thanksgiving mass,
–walk throughs of big liturgies like Holy Thursday and Easter vigil
-Extra rehearsals for big liturgies
-multiple holy day masses, and when these happen on a saturday, sometimes its an EIGHT MASS WEEKEND!!! with only 4 hours sleep in between Midnight mass and the first one the next morning.

That’s a start. and nowhere near even half of what I do.

And soooooo much more, as you say. My one friend who was a MD at a major parish would often put in 50+ hours a week and hardly ever had a weekend off to be with family. I had a parttime position directing a children’s voice choir and handbell choir. I spent at least 15-20 hrs a week preparing, researching music and practice with the children. You just don’t show up at the time of mass and expect it all to come together. And then talk about volunteers. My 30+ choir would be there for the school masses during the week, but because it’s volunteer you could expect less than half of the members to show up at mass because their parents didn’t feel like going to mass. So, you had to be prepared to do something different at the last minute in case not enough kids showed up. For an adult choir, in my experience when I had the time to volunteer for a choir, most choristers didn’t read music. I was one of the few who could read music. So, the music directors would spend A LOT of time teaching them the music by rote. At a couple of those parishes we did polyphony and other choral motets as well as chant. They aren’t easy and a well-trained music director is essential to be able to teach this music correctly to non-musician singers. Then you have the unreliability of volunteers not showing up for practice or at mass, which occur more often than what people would think… according to many of my colleagues who direct volunteer choirs and cantors at churches. I’ve often been called up at the last minute to fill in for a volunteer cantor who just decided to take the Saturday or Sunday off.

I think one of the problems is that many non-musicians who aren’t involved with any kind of music ministry, really don’t know the work and hours that goes into being a musician or being involved in music ministry. Of course, there are parishes which can’t afford to pay their musicians and that is understandable. But if a parish values music for their liturgies and have the financial means, they will find a way to pay for high quality musicians and music directors. For the parishes I work at, they do value well-trained instrumentalists and singers and want to pay them. The music directors get a salary and the other instrumentalists and cantors are paid a stipend per mass that they play/cantor.

For my work as a trained singer, I put in *at least *15 hours a week, if not more (depending on the time I have in between caring for my kids) in vocal practice, learning and studying new music and keeping up the music I already know. That doesn’t include the actual masses cantored and rehearsal before the mass or performances/rehearsals at the theater or other venues. I spend at least $150 per vocal lesson every couple of weeks. I make much less than that a mass, so I don’t cantor for mass to pay for my lessons. But my lessons help me give the best of my gift. My weekends are split up and don’t have that much time to spend with my family either because of multiple masses/weddings or my other secular music jobs. I had three weekends off this summer because most people don’t want to spend their entire weekends at a church when they can be somewhere else. At Christmas I don’t spend much time with my family as I am constantly at mass and rehearsals. I get about 4 hours of sleep and then up again for Christmas morning masses. Easter is the same. Rehearsals are usually not paid, which I fully accept and will give of my time for that. I don’t mention these things because I’m complaining, but to show some of the time, money and sacrifice it takes to be a church musician. That is the nature of the beast when you become a professional musician and one you accept.

Another problem is that working as a musician is often not “valued” in terms of a “legitimate” occupation. For some people, because it is something enjoyed, it’s not a real job, even when a person is making a good living at it. So, when they see that a trained musician is being paid to work at a church, they think it’s a bad thing. To them, it’s not as legitimate as being a businessman, a doctor, a teacher, etc. It’s a waste of money to them.

In regards to not giving of oneself completely to God if one is paid, that is absolutely incorrect for many musicians, paid or not. Yes, there are musicians who aren’t spiritual or religious, but I would say many of the musicians I work with at churches are often prayerful people, whether or not we agree with what’s appropriate for liturgical music. For myself, whenever I sing, I am fully giving myself to God, praising Him to my utmost. Every piece of music I sing, whether it’s at a secular event or at mass, is a prayer to God for me. It is a form of spiritual ecstasy I receive no where else except for the intense love I have my husband and children. So, to say that because a musician is being paid he/she can’t possibly be praising and praying to God just seems absurd and ridiculous in my mind.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Maybe one day, when I don’t have to make a living where the little bit I make from my church work is a matter of being able to make our mortgage payment and don’t need those extra dollars to pay for diapers and such, I could volunteer my work all the time (sometimes I do now), but I see nothing wrong with paying trained musicians for mass and all the other responsibilities required when working as a musician/music director at a parish.

 

[SMHW]

God bless him… Our deacon (who was a choir member in the distant past) tried to chant the dialogue before the Gospel yesterday. He was flat, realized it, tried to correct the pitch on the next word, went flat again, tried to correct again… The result was that he ended up “chanting” a complex set of tones (that still sounded rather flat) where only two or three tones should have been chanted.

And the people (I’ll give them credit for understanding that they were supposed to follow his lead) tried to respond in kind! The people’s response was… well …discordant… to say the least.

When we have a priest or deacon who is on pitch our parish does a good job of responding to chanted dialogues. One of the reasons the parish sounded so discordant was they understand how chant should “work” even if they are not so competent as to find the right pitch out of a selection of tones. And that is thanks, in part, to our fantastic music director.

A music director like ours who can lead chant is worth this weight in gold. But he and his family can’t live off of his own weight. I know he puts in a good 40 hours a week at our parish and he deserves every penny he makes. (And he has been working with our deacons but obviously has a ways to go when it comes to teaching them how to lead chant.)

 

[Joe_5859]

I agree that the laborer is worth his wage, but then there’s that part that just recoils at the thought of someone being paid to be at Mass.

Perhaps we could pay the music people for their preparation with the undertsanding that they offer their services at Mass for free. Maybe that’s just verbal gymnastics, but it might make people feel better.

 

[Corki]

Have you ever heard non-musicians singing chant? I’m not talking about the priests or monks–these people ARE trained to sing. I’m talking about cantors or laypeople who aren’t trained in singing–have you ever heard them sing chant?

Believe me, this will cause even the most die-hard traditionalist Catholic to long for a silent Mass! Badly-done chant is dreadful.

I think this is one reason it doesn’t get done very often in OF Masses–many of us grew up after Vatican II and therefore never learned chant, and most of us did not learn chant in college in our music classes (and most converts NEVER did chant in their previous church lives), so no one knows how to do it, and it sounds like a chorus of injured kitties. We’ve tried it a few times in our OF parish, and I truly hate it because it’s so unpleasant to hear.

Besides, do you honestly think people just “pick up chant and do it?” Not at all. At the moment there is a sticky (I believe it’s in the Traditional Section of CAF) with a instruction guide teaching people to sing chant. WHO WROTE THAT? (Hint–it was probably a musician, or someone who was trained by a musician.)

And WHO trains people in local parishes to sing chant; who leads the Schola? It may be a volunteer layperson who just happens to have learned chant in their life. But most of the time, it will be a trained musician who has learned how to read and sing chant.

And WHO writes chant? (Musicians!)

Finally, even though the “most ideal form” of the Mass is chanted, honestly now, truly–do you think this is really going to happen in most cities and towns in the the United States of America?

It’s OK to dream, but there comes a time when we have to face reality, accept it, and learn to appreciate it and not pine for the dream.

And BTW, that’s one of my problems with not paying church musicians–Protestant churches do pay them. That’s reality.

Calm down, I was just replying to the SC promt.

Have you ever heard non-musicians singing chant? I’m not talking about the priests or monks–these people ARE trained to sing. I’m talking about cantors or laypeople who aren’t trained in singing–have you ever heard them sing chant?

Yes, we do a chant Mass occassionally in our parish. No one except the priest is trained to do it.

And WHO writes chant? (Musicians!)

But not likely the one’s on a parish payroll.

I am not against paying musicians. I am only expressing a concern about some posts here that have stated that paid musicians should be a top priority in the parish budget. When our even our DRE is a volunteer (diocese requires a MA for the position and two week-long diocisan development courses at the DRE’s own expense), sorry this isn’t going to rise to the top of our priority list. We could “find” the money, as has been suggested, but which is better to take it out of – the fund being collected to repair the roof, the program to feed the hungry or the electric bill for the A/C?

 

[Joe_5859]

I am a believer that, especially within the Catholic church, at least the key musicians should be paid. I myself was the lead musician at our church and was paid a monthly fee and was also under contract. By implementing this, the pastor was assured that I would appear every Sunday to play for Mass. Those musicians who were not paid would show up sporadically as they were all volunteers and there was no payment to ensure their attendance.

So, yes, even though musicians ought to give up their talents for God, my experience in the church has been that, without that monetary exchange, it’s a hit or miss as to whether any musician will show up for Mass and that kind of shaky commitment does not glorify God the way we ought to.

God Bless

That’s a good point. Payment ensures accountability. Often it can be better to pay someone for their time to ensure their commitment rather than to rely on them volunteering where you’ve not really got any room to complain if they flake out on you when they were doing you a favor to begin with.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am not against paying musicians. I am only expressing a concern about some posts here that have stated that paid musicians should be a top priority in the parish budget. When our even our DRE is a volunteer (diocese requires a MA for the position and two week-long diocisan development courses at the DRE’s own expense), sorry this isn’t going to rise to the top of our priority list. We could “find” the money, as has been suggested, but which is better to take it out of – the fund being collected to repair the roof, the program to feed the hungry or the electric bill for the A/C?

That’s why I don’t think there’s going to be a standard answer. For a larger parish with lots of stuff going on, a paid music director is practically a necessity. For a smaller rural parish who has no paid staff at all, but relatively fewer needs, having a volunteer from the parish makes the most sense.

 

[SMHW]

Perhaps we could pay the music people for their preparation with the undertsanding that they offer their services at Mass for free. Maybe that’s just verbal gymnastics, but it might make people feel better.

It probably works out that way.

 

[SMHW]

I am not against paying musicians. I am only expressing a concern about some posts here that have stated that paid musicians should be a top priority in the parish budget. When our even our DRE is a volunteer (diocese requires a MA for the position and two week-long diocisan development courses at the DRE’s own expense), sorry this isn’t going to rise to the top of our priority list. We could “find” the money, as has been suggested, but which is better to take it out of – the fund being collected to repair the roof, the program to feed the hungry or the electric bill for the A/C?

If you don’t have the money you don’t have the money. And if you find someone who is willing to make a decision to be a 10+ hour a week volunteer for a recurring task… well, God must have specially blessed you.

Some Church musicians are just people who fill in where needed. Same for other roles inside and outside of the liturgy. But when someone regularly works more than 15 hours a week in a role that takes specialized training that the parish itself cannot provide then they are filling what I would call a career position. Some of these roles require significant managerial and public relations skills too.

I think that ideally both music directors and DREs should be paid.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Anywhere from 2 - 16

Thanks. Someone was asking what MDs do during the week and I thought you gave a great answer, but I wanted to make sure you included that. We once had three deaths in the week before Christmas.

Yeah, bet just reading that can cause you an anxiety attack.

People who pretty much only go to the Parish for Mass have no idea what a busy place it can be all the time.