Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[The_Curt_Jester]

Even the church mouse is paid …with food and shelter.

I always say, there’s nothing like being as poor as a church… musician.

 

[Cat]

I appreciate the discussion (so far).

I think that although many of us are not on the same page as Pilgrim1701, it is important that we face the reality that many many Catholics ARE on Pilgrim1701’s page, and believe that church musicians should not be paid.

I think a lot of priests believe this.

And I think that there are probably quite a few bishops who believe this, and that’s why so many Catholic parish musicians aren’t getting paid, or are getting paid a mere stipend that necessitates a secular job.

I think that many Catholics simply have no idea what church musicians actually do other than “perform” because that’s what they see non-church musicians do.

I don’t know about the rest of you who are musicians, but it really, really hurts me when people say that we are “showing off” or “divas” or “lounge lizards.” (That last one really hurts me, because I never go into a “lounge” because I don’t drink alcohol!) No one has said that so far on this thread, thank goodness. Keep up the good work!

I would LOVE to see a huge conference in the United States devoted to discussing the various issues and conflicts about music in the Catholic Church. I wish that CAF would consider convening such a conference. Of course, many musicians would be unable to afford to come. Perhaps the conference could be held online.

However, I doubt that such a conference will ever be held. As I have had said several times on CAF, in the Catholic Church, the most controversial and hushed-up topic begins with the letter “M”–and I’m NOT talking about masturbation.

P.S. I suspect that Pilgrim1701 may know a church musician who really IS a “diva” who performs for personal glory. They are out there, you know. I don’t blame Pilgrim1701 for being disgusted with this kind of musicianship in the Mass.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

The best music conference I’ve been to (and it’s much more than a conference) is the annual Colloquium done by the Church Music Association of America. Unfortunately, it can be quite expensive to go and many church musicians won’t be able to afford to attend. Ahem.

 

[TrueLight]

I don’t think there is a black and white answer to this question.
Here is my opinion - just my opinion.

Musical directors should be paid.

If the Church is small and really can’t afford much, and you want to volunteer, God bless you.

If the parish is large, gets good collections and has paid staff, then yes musicans should be paid if they choose.

If the position is basically a full-time job and if you make your living as a professional musician, then you should be paid.

Personally, I have always chosen to volunteer my services at my church for free. It is a a sort of tithe of what God has given me. If I were to be asked to sing at other churches, I probably would accept a fee. I have a 9-5, so I have another source of income, although of course, with kids in college, I can use more.

In the past, I have sung both as a volunteer and I have been paid for specific functions.

I have attended protestant churches where folks with exceptional, I mean exceptional talent, have sung/played and directed choirs for free. I have been at Churches where the choir members sung for free, but the musicians and soloists or section leaders were paid.

It varies.

 

[pnewton]

Depends on the parish and its budget and what you define as “paid.”

Yes. There is no rule that can be applied across the board.

So, yes, even though musicians ought to give up their talents for God, my experience in the church has been that, without that monetary exchange, it’s a hit or miss as to whether any musician will show up for Mass and that kind of shaky commitment does not glorify God the way we ought to.

And this (I will comment more later)

. A guitar used at Mass does not equal entertainment.

I only quote this because I thought it was funny to lift it out of context, as many here would agree whole-heartedly with this statement.

Okay, now for my position. We have no full time musician. We have only a priest, secretary, DRE, cleaning lady, and accountant as paid staff. The last three are part time. We pay instrumentalist, (right now we only have those who play guitar, except for me who squeezes in some piano with the guitar) at a rate of $35.00 a Mass. That is to play, prepare and lead in singing. I draft my wife to help me. I objected to this at first and my priest was quite insistent, actually demanding it as a condition of playing. He believes it does help insure accountability, and he is right, sort of. There are times in the year that I have to take off from work in order to participate in major liturgies. I cost me about $350 everytime I do this, so I try and work around my schedule, but in the end, I will be there for those liturgies that I must make. If I performed some other role, like reader or greeter, I would not take off to perform those functions, but let others who did not have to word do them. In this, my job is different. There are some things I do, that I need to do, that if I do not, it will not be done, at least properly.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think that many Catholics simply have no idea what church musicians actually do other than “perform” because that’s what they see non-church musicians do.

I think that’s true. You’d think a lot of priests could sympathize because most Catholics think they only work on Sundays.

I would LOVE to see a huge conference in the United States devoted to discussing the various issues and conflicts about music in the Catholic Church. I wish that CAF would consider convening such a conference. Of course, many musicians would be unable to afford to come. Perhaps the conference could be held online.

The National Association of Pastoral Musicians has webinars.

 

[Joe_5859]

…There are times in the year that I have to take off from work in order to participate in major liturgies. I cost me about $350 everytime I do this, so I try and work around my schedule, but in the end, I will be there for those liturgies that I must make. If I performed some other role, like reader or greeter, I would not take off to perform those functions, but let others who did not have to word do them. In this, my job is different. There are some things I do, that I need to do, that if I do not, it will not be done, at least properly.

This brings up a good point. The pool of people to draw from for music ministry is generally much smaller than for people to be readers or ushers or EMHCs. If you’re in a pinch, you can’t just grab Mr. or Mrs. So-And-So from the back pew to help out at the last minute.

 

[Sarabande]

This brings up a good point. The pool of people to draw from for music ministry is generally much smaller than for people to be readers or ushers or EMHCs. If you’re in a pinch, you can’t just grab Mr. or Mrs. So-And-So from the back pew to help out at the last minute.

Very true. I’m often called for last minute things like funerals, volunteers backing out or not showing up, etc. because they know I’m usually available, reliable and can read music. Most people aren’t able to take the time off from their jobs or can’t afford to. But even then, I still have to be able to find someone to watch my kids at the last minute, and I’m fortunate I have a mom with a flexible job who can usually watch them. Actually, out of our pool of cantors at one of the parishes I work, I’m the only one during the week who is available to do these things. The music director is also the only one available to play the organ during the week as well.

 

[SMHW]

This brings up a good point. The pool of people to draw from for music ministry is generally much smaller than for people to be readers or ushers or EMHCs. If you’re in a pinch, you can’t just grab Mr. or Mrs. So-And-So from the back pew to help out at the last minute.

Yep.

That’s why so many parishes have guitars for instruments. There are often a fair number of guitar players out there and they are often quite willing to play for free. There are usually some decent piano players out there. But the point of playing an instrument is to support the voices and in my experience the majority of pianists are not used to accompanying voices. (In fact the guitar players probably better at it.)

There are simply not that many people out there who can play the organ, chant, or conduct a choir.

 

[Sarabande]

Yep.

That’s why so many parishes have guitars for instruments. There are often a fair number of guitar players out there and they are often quite willing to play for free. There are usually some decent piano players out there. But the point of playing an instrument is to support the voices and in my experience the majority of pianists are not used to accompanying voices. (In fact the guitar players probably better at it.)

There are simply not that many people out there who can play the organ, chant, or conduct a choir.

Yes. Accompanying is a special skill which can take a lot of training and experience. There are instrumentalists and then there are instrumentalists who are also accompanists. They need to be able to breathe with the voice and listen to the phrasing the voice makes especially with accompanying for the psalm and gospel acclamation. If the cantor makes a mistake they need to be able to help put them back on track. With accompanying congregations they also need to know and understand where a typical voice will breathe and be a rock solid support no matter how off the congregation or priest or even the cantor may go. A good cantor can bring in the congregation for chanted responses even if the priest is completely off. A good cantor can also help a congregation with staying on pitch for the mass parts especially when the priest is completely tone deaf and has forgotten to turn off his body mic so that all you hear is a really loud monotone overpowering the congregation. ha! ha! God bless those priests.

 

[SMHW]

Yes. Accompanying is a special skill which can take a lot of training and experience. There are instrumentalists and then there are instrumentalists who are also accompanists.

I need to stop telling stories about my parish or someone is going to recognize me!

A previous music director at my parish brought in a young pianist she had known from another parish to accompany our choir. While he was a fine piano player he had a lot to learn about accompanying others. On numerous occasions he was happily playing the accompaniment out of his book and and failed to notice that the cantor/choir was singing something completely out of time with him. And when he did eventually notice he had no idea how to get back in sync.

(He did eventually learn and became a wonderful accompanist on both piano and organ. He got a degree in music, spent some time as a music director at another local parish, and then went on some kind of world tour. He I’m not sure where he is now.)

 

[Sarabande]

I need to stop telling stories about my parish or someone is going to recognize me!

A previous music director at my parish brought in a young pianist she had known from another parish to accompany our choir. While he was a fine piano player he had a lot to learn about accompanying others. On numerous occasions he was happily playing the accompaniment out of his book and and failed to notice that the cantor/choir was singing something completely out of time with him. And when he did eventually notice he had no idea how to get back in sync.

(He did eventually learn and became a wonderful accompanist on both piano and organ. He got a degree in music, spent some time as a music director at another local parish, and then went on some kind of world tour. He I’m not sure where he is now.)

Ha! Ha! Those are things that demonstrate the time, experience and even money it takes to get the level of expertise and skills needed for the music liturgy.

Now, a new accompanist, singer or other instrumentalist need to start somewhere to get the experience and skills. Often times, professional musicians have their start playing and singing in churches sometimes from the time they are children or teens. The experience I had as a cantor/choir member when I was in high school, college and early 20s were invaluable. I learned a lot about the liturgy, as well as the different music styles and ways to use my voice singing hymns or when I chanted or sang polyphony as opposed to singing a solo from a Mozart mass.

A couple of the professional organists I’m friends with started playing in churches as young as 8 and 10. They didn’t accompany hymns or the mass parts at that point, but were given the opportunities to play the preludes and postludes or instrumentals during mass. Then, as they got more experience, learned to accompany and support congregations. They were fortunate in their parishes that it had such a strong music program which encouraged the young so that they created a new generation to take over when the current musicians retire. I don’t think their experience is typical, though, which is why well-trained musicians - especially pianists and organists experienced with the liturgy - aren’t a dime a dozen and thus not willing to give up every weekend, holiday and family time.

 

[Sarabande]

I appreciate the discussion (so far).

I think that although many of us are not on the same page as Pilgrim1701, it is important that we face the reality that many many Catholics ARE on Pilgrim1701’s page, and believe that church musicians should not be paid.

I think a lot of priests believe this.

And I think that there are probably quite a few bishops who believe this, and that’s why so many Catholic parish musicians aren’t getting paid, or are getting paid a mere stipend that necessitates a secular job.

I think this is true. It’s not surprising, either, because many people don’t think musicians need to be paid for outside church work either.

At the same time, I know there are priests who would love to pay for better musicians, but just can’t afford it. Some parishes can afford it and are willing and wanting to set aside a budget.

I think the practice or idea of not paying musicians is relatively “new” in Church history. Whenever I read about past composers and musicians, many of them were under the pay role or patronage of their church or the bishop. (I’m sure poorer parishes did not have even “back in the olden days”). It was the norm and the Church, for at least a few centuries, prided herself with having the best musicians and highest quality of compositions. It was the same with sacred art. The Church heavily influenced music and art in all realms. That is not the case today, obviously, but I do find it interesting how much that has changed.

I think that many Catholics simply have no idea what church musicians actually do other than “perform” because that’s what they see non-church musicians do.

True, I think it’s a common misconception and misunderstanding… understandably so. If you aren’t involved and don’t know much about what it takes to just be a musician, there could be that misconception.

I don’t know about the rest of you who are musicians, but it really, really hurts me when people say that we are “showing off” or “divas” or “lounge lizards.” (That last one really hurts me, because I never go into a “lounge” because I don’t drink alcohol!) No one has said that so far on this thread, thank goodness. Keep up the good work!

I’ve learned to build up a thick skin as a musician through the years. Soft on the inside, hard on the outside. We are naturally sensitive and “raw”, so we can be easily hurt. Masterclasses and auditions with feedback teaches you to take in any constructive criticism and toss off the comments made to just be cruel and make the other feel tiny and themselves feel superior due to either their own insecurities, self-importance or jealousies. Those people aren’t worth my time.

It saddens me that people could have that kind of acerbic negativity and judgmentalism. Funny enough, it doesn’t bother me if people have strong opinions about music. One can’t help their feelings on certain music, so I expect it and welcome it. I also have strong opinions on music and like discussing likes and dislikes. But when people begin to judge the character and personalities of others without knowing who they are, I think that is wrong and uncharitable. Sure, if you know the individual and that person is truly a diva or ego-maniac, then the sentiments are understandable, but it’s unfair to paint with a broad brush.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

You don’t have to be trained to pray. I however have spent thousands and thousands of hours in my own practice, rehearsals, and lots of money in a degree in music.

And I’m sensing that you feel the Church, and I who contribute, should pay for your studies. Or I’m I misinterpreting?

If I were rich and didn’t have to work, I would do one mass a weekend free.

That would be perfectly reasonable, but I doubt you would have to be rich to do one mass.

And then what happens to the funerals and weddings? Your musician has to say, “Sorry, I work that day - tough luck.”

Hire another one.

Sorry - if they ever existed, they’re long gone now. Everyone needs a paying job these days.

Is it the responsibility of the parish to provide anyone with a paying job?

But if all you want is someone to show up two minutes before Mass and twiddle on the piano a bit, then any volunteer will do - they don’t need credentials, and they certainly wouldn’t need to be paid, since they have to be at Mass, anyway.

I hope we all want to do better than that, though.

And I’ve been accused of being condescending…

Odds are you get paid for a forty hour work week. However, I’m going to assume that most of that time you don’t actually do anything, and therefore you should just volunteer your services. If you have a family or whatever, they’ll be okay starving, I’m sure.
Cheers!

Well, maybe the parish will hire me to do something if I can’t get a job in my field of expertise elsewhere…

This entire post is very sad to me. It really demonstrates a lack of understanding. For music preparation alone, … It’s all on the music director. You really can’t delegate and share most of these responsibilities.

… There can be disagreement, but to assume the worst in these musicians with an attitude of seeming to know what is in their hearts and souls, especially when no one on this thread remotely represented the above sentiments, is uncalled for.

I’m not assuming the worst, and certainly not reading into hearts and souls, it was another poster who brought up the point about playing in a Lutheran church.
As someone who does put a lot of time in other parts of parish life, I can understand clearly that music takes up a lot of time and effort. The salient point of the thread though is should parishes set aside a salary from parish resources. While musicians have valiantly stated the case for what they do, in terms of time/effort/resources, but seem unwilling to concede that to others also. If musicians/music directors should be paid, why not for other ministries? The musicians have argued they should be paid, but others not, and given their reasons. I just remain unconvinced.

I would appreciate some clarification. I’m trying really, really hard to hear what you’re saying, but I think I’m misunderstanding you.

Also, what I hear you saying is that no one should be hired to do Music Direction or any other responsibility in a Catholic Church, but that everyone in the Catholic Church except the priest should be working at a secular full-time job and the work of the parish should be done by all these working people who each volunteer a few hours of their off-work time each week.

Am I reading you correctly?

Full-time, part-time, retired, unemployed, whatever, I’m not putting any restriction on that, what I’m saying is the parish need not be burdened with financially supporting them.

So what you envision is that the music in the Catholic Church would be handled by about 25 people who have musical ability or talent, each volunteering about 2 hours a week–to accomplish all of the following “jobs” (and any additional jobs that I am forgetting about):

Am I correctly interpreting what you’re saying, Pilgrim1701? Is this how you envision a parish’s music getting done–many different volunteers each chipping in a few hours?

Thank you for clarifying.

Well, I suppose if your having a choir/musicians/folk-group depending on the parish or the mass, your going to need about 10 people involved for each mass. If you have a parish with say, 3 chapels/churches, with maybe 6 Sunday masses/vigils then that adds up to 50/60. Yes each group would be responsible for a regular mass, and each group would need leadership from one of their peers, that’s how it works.
The principle is known as subsidiarity.
I know, the retort will be you can’t get that many, or that they won’t be professional enough. I would answer from experience, that you can. Without paying them. As for the unpolished performance of the children’s choir, I for one I’m willing to have a little forbearance.

Very true. I’m often called for last minute things like funerals, volunteers backing out or not showing up, etc. because they know I’m usually available, reliable and can read music. Most people aren’t able to take the time off from their jobs or can’t afford to. But even then, I still have to be able to find someone to watch my kids at the last minute, and I’m fortunate I have a mom with a flexible job who can usually watch them. Actually, out of our pool of cantors at one of the parishes I work, I’m the only one during the week who is available to do these things. The music director is also the only one available to play the organ during the week as well.

I don’t mean to be too blunt, but you can say no. And like I said in my original posts, it would certainly not be unreasonable to be paid for a wedding/funeral. But where should the cost lie? If pressure is being applied at the last minute, it would be unreasonable not to cover your childcare costs. I’m not advocating treating anyone like a doormat and taking advantage-just because X does a great job at Sunday morning we’ll twist her arm into doing Saturday night as well.

 

[SMHW]

Well, I suppose if your having a choir/musicians/folk-group depending on the parish or the mass, your going to need about 10 people involved for each mass. If you have a parish with say, 3 chapels/churches, with maybe 6 Sunday masses/vigils then that adds up to 50/60. Yes each group would be responsible for a regular mass, and each group would need leadership from one of their peers, that’s how it works.
The principle is known as subsidiarity.
I know, the retort will be you can’t get that many, or that they won’t be professional enough. I would answer from experience, that you can. Without paying them. As for the unpolished performance of the children’s choir, I for one I’m willing to have a little forbearance.

I’m not sure exactly what this has to do with subsidiarity. It seems as if you are saying that if a parish wants all those things but can’t get volunteers then they should do without.

This volunteer is happy to have her donations go toward the music program at her parish.

(And I’m all for paying DREs too.)

 

[agapewolf]

Just as the parish accountant most likely has some sort of certification or degree, and they get paid for it, a musician has to have training to do what they do.

EMHCs and readers and ushers do not.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Just as the parish accountant most likely has some sort of certification or degree, and they get paid for it, a musician has to have training to do what they do.
.

That assumes they get paid as a rule, which is what the argument is about here. Whose to say those sitting on a parish finance committee can’t and don’t do it voluntarily like so many things behind the scenes, and I know they do. By saying that people can volunteer services to their parish I’m in no way impugning their profession, be that accountants/ musicians / teachers - anyone, really.

 

[SMHW]

That assumes they get paid as a rule, which is what the argument is about here. Whose to say those sitting on a parish finance committee can’t and don’t do it voluntarily like so many things behind the scenes, and I know they do. By saying that people can volunteer services to their parish I’m in no way impugning their profession, be that accountants/ musicians / teachers - anyone, really.

I thought the point of parish councils was advisory and more into goals. The parish council does not not typically get into the day to day work of the parish. That is not their purpose.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

I’m not sure exactly what this has to do with subsidiarity. It seems as if you are saying that if a parish wants all those things but can’t get volunteers then they should do without.

This volunteer is happy to have her donations go toward the music program at her parish.

(And I’m all for paying DREs too.)

I can understand you may want to support your musician, and the DREs.
At what point would you stop though? What work in the parish would you not be willing to see paid for? It is already clear, that not all activity in all parishes are paid for. I’m just curious as to the defining line. So far, the argument I’ve heard is: I train hard, practice x hours a day, studied to get a degree/qualification, others can’t do what I do, all of which is true…

I’m just very concerned about the notion that some areas of the Liturgy and parish life should be professionalised, (which is the topic of the thread), closed off to a few who get paid.

 

[SMHW]

I can understand you may want to support your musician, and the DREs.
At what point would you stop though? What work in the parish would you not be willing to see paid for? It is already clear, that not all activity in all parishes are paid for. I’m just curious as to the defining line. So far, the argument I’ve heard is: I train hard, practice x hours a day, studied to get a degree/qualification, others can’t do what I do, all of which is true…

I’m just very concerned about the notion that some areas of the Liturgy and parish life should be professionalised, (which is the topic of the thread), closed off to a few who get paid.

As I said before, the law of supply and demand applies. Parishes are every bit as bound by the laws of economics as is the rest of the world. If every parish had a plethora of trained musicians there would probably not be any need for parishes to pay for them.

The only scenario I can conceive of where a parish would have so many trained musicians would be when music training was inexpensive and compulsory for everyone.