Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

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Sarabande said:
.)

I do think it is unfair to assume that if a chorister, instrumentalist, cantor, etc. don’t attend another mass before or after their “working” mass, they are somehow not really worshiping God, not praying, not going to confession, etc.
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Now, now. I never said THAT.
 
SMHW said:
Someone brought up the principle of subsidiarity earlier. At the time I couldn’t see how it applied to this discussion. Maybe now I do.

Small communities often practice a socialistic lifestyle. They are likely to trade goods and services rather than to use currency. But when communities get larger it’s usually necessary to switch to some sort of currency because it becomes too difficult for people to know each others strengths, weaknesses, talents, needs, surpluses, etc. Larger communities can offer more opportunities to people but a lot of people will not appreciate those opportunities because they are isolated from labor and materials necessary to provide the opportunities.

Parishes are like this too. A small parish can usually rely on volunteers because everyone knows everyone and it is quite obvious what needs doing and who can and will be available to do it. I suspect that the people who do the work in small parishes are often rewarded for their service in non-monetary ways that still have financial value. Small parishes might make use of a local organist and I’d be willing to bet that organist gets rewarded with pies, chickens, and dinner invitations especially around the holidays. (Remember when lots of people had little organs or pianos in their homes and knew how to play them and would entertain guests by playing? Neither do I but I’ve met older people who had them and I’m told that’s what happened.)

But as parishes get larger the parishioners become more and more removed from the day to day operations and needs of the parish as a whole. It can’t be helped. The communication factor tends to drop considerably each time you add an additional hundred or so people to a group. And the work involved in supporting the parish becomes more difficult as the number of people served by the parish grows. So it often becomes necessary to place a monetary value on the work done by parishioners to make sure things are fair. Some people contribute money and some contribute time. Presumably everyone benefits, some of them monetarily.

Larger parishes can usually have more elaborate music than small parishes. Large parishes will also usually have to pay for that music with money rather than trade for it.
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Makes sense.
 
clem456 said:
Our guy does all that. Plus on the liturgy side he chooses music to fit the gospels and Church seasons. He has to do research to find music. We have to pay for the music.
He trained the congregation in the new Mass responses.
He trains the deacons to do the Praeconium Paschale or exultet at Easter. That is a full time job right there,
Trains the priests how to do chants and sung consecration, practices with them staying on pitch.
The guy has a music degrees in keyboards and voice and attended seminary before meeting his wife. He is very qualified to do what he does. He is underpaid.

Why is this important?
At Chirstmas eve Mass a couple years ago a non-Cathloic guy was attending Mass with his Catholic wife and young family. He had been resisting conversion despite his wife’s gentle prodding. At the end of Mass we do Joy to the World with full on pipe organ, trumpet and a large choir. It is an awesome experience. The Church literally shakes with the Holy Spirit. The man had a conversion experience right there. He was overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit. What he says is “I could no longer resist having that joy”.

Thats the end point of all the hard work and talent. It is right and just to pay the person who helps make this kind of thing possible.
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Again, aside from training the congregation on the new responses (unless they are sung responses) you are describing a music director, not a liturgy director.
 
Sarabande said:
Just to put the record straight, I’m a “she”. 😛
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Ah, so you are. I don’t pay too much attention to signatures (and I’ve yet to see a man with one of those counter bars in a signature!). Ah well… the difference of one letter, right? 😃
 
TrueLight said:
No problem. I probably read too quickly!
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No, it wasn’t you at all. It does look like I was referring to you because I had your quote in my post. I’m usually on here while I’m nursing and will only type with one hand and as fast as I can so that I can still pay attention to both of my kiddies. Thus, I tend to let my thoughts flow out without doing multiple quotes and I try to get them out as quickly as possible before I have to do something else and forget about it.
TrueLight said:
And now I’m off to my volunteer singing job. 😃
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😃

You are a blessing to your parish. 🙂
 
Sarabande said:
No, it wasn’t you at all. It does look like I was referring to you because I had your quote in my post. I’m usually on here while I’m nursing and will only type with one hand and as fast as I can so that I can still pay attention to both of my kiddies. Thus, I tend to let my thoughts flow out without doing multiple quotes and I try to get them out as quickly as possible before I have to do something else and forget about it.

😃

You are a blessing to your parish. 🙂
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So are you. :hug1:
 
clem456 said:
My apoologies. What is the liturgy director required to do?
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In general liturgy directors also oversee the readers, greeters, ushers, EMHCs, altar servers, decorators, and people like that. Even if he delegates the actual training and scheduling of these groups the liturgy director needs to make sure these groups have whatever training the diocese and local parish requires. The liturgy director might even be responsible for picking out the Mass options for the Penitential Rite, Eucharistic Prayer, and Memorial Acclamation. (The choice of these matters because if any of the parts are to be sung/chanted then the musicians need to be prepared ahead of time.)

Particularly in the case of special liturgies like Confirmations, Scrutinies, Solemnities… the worship director needs to act as (or appoint a) master of ceremonies to make sure the “players” know what to do and when since the actions and cues will be different from usual Sundays.
 
clem456 said:
My apoologies. What is the liturgy director required to do?
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Around my parish (back when there was a lay LD):
  • Plan weddings, funerals, other special events. Meet with people involved in those.
  • Do all scheduling, whether they are for special events mentioned above, or the normal activities. This included EMHCs, servers, ushers, lectors, and any other volunteers not related to music.
  • Train said servers, EMHCs, lectors, and so on.
  • Do the Mass intentions
  • Keep the church stocked with everything necessary for Mass: candles, hosts, etc.
  • Oversee the sacristans and any workers involved in working inside the church (again, excluding musicians)
  • Coordinating plans for liturgies so everyone is on the same page. Included working WITH the music director (but not doing his job)
The music director handled:
  • Playing the organ
  • Working with the choir/cantors, traning, practices, recruitment
  • Arranging music for the Masses, scheduling cantors/choir
  • Scheduling any substitutes
  • Maintenance of the organ and other musical equipment
  • Purchasing/gathering of new instruments and music
  • Any research involving music and appropriateness to the liturgy
  • Working with those involved in weddings, funerals, etc., for planning music, special rehearsals, etc.
  • Helping the priests with any chants that needed to be sung
I’m sure none of those are complete lists, but it’s off the top of my head. If your LD does everything in both lists, then you have a 2-in-1. I think most churches would most likely refer to them as a “Director of Worship”.

Now, everything in the first list is pretty much pulled from other people’s jobs in order to create a new job. A lot of the first is either the pastor’s or secretary’s work. In my experience, a Liturgy Director is an unnecessary cog in the wheel who does more to get in the way than help. He is just another person to have to pass information through instead of working directly with the pastor, and it actually makes for a less-than-desirable work environment. He does not do anything that another person cannot do in their ordinary job. On the other hand, a musician does a lot of things that others cannot do.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
Around my parish (back when there was a lay LD):
  • Plan weddings, funerals, other special events. Meet with people involved in those.
  • Do all scheduling, whether they are for special events mentioned above, or the normal activities. This included EMHCs, servers, ushers, lectors, and any other volunteers not related to music.
  • Train said servers, EMHCs, lectors, and so on.
  • Do the Mass intentions
  • Keep the church stocked with everything necessary for Mass: candles, hosts, etc.
  • Oversee the sacristans and any workers involved in working inside the church (again, excluding musicians)
  • Coordinating plans for liturgies so everyone is on the same page. Included working WITH the music director (but not doing his job)
The music director handled:
  • Playing the organ
  • Working with the choir/cantors, traning, practices, recruitment
  • Arranging music for the Masses, scheduling cantors/choir
  • Scheduling any substitutes
  • Maintenance of the organ and other musical equipment
  • Purchasing/gathering of new instruments and music
  • Any research involving music and appropriateness to the liturgy
  • Working with those involved in weddings, funerals, etc., for planning music, special rehearsals, etc.
  • Helping the priests with any chants that needed to be sung
I’m sure none of those are complete lists, but it’s off the top of my head. If your LD does everything in both lists, then you have a 2-in-1. I think most churches would most likely refer to them as a “Director of Worship”.

Now, everything in the first list is pretty much pulled from other people’s jobs in order to create a new job. A lot of the first is either the pastor’s or secretary’s work. In my experience, a Liturgy Director is an unnecessary cog in the wheel who does more to get in the way than help. He is just another person to have to pass information through instead of working directly with the pastor, and it actually makes for a less-than-desirable work environment. He does not do anything that another person cannot do in their ordinary job. On the other hand, a musician does a lot of things that others cannot do.
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Our liturgy committe does all of this, both sides. Our paid guy heads the liturgy committee. The committee members are delegated the routine functions of scheduling servers and ushers and ushers. If there is a “bulk” training session that requires pastoral care, the liturgy director handles that, the priest may also assist. These meetings will not just be info, but have a pastoral element, scripture, musc, reflection. For ushers lectors etc, this is once a year. Other than large meetings that require some planning, he does not get directly involved these ministries, but he is responsible for them.
He personally takes care of all weddings and funerals. He doesn’t do scheduling, the secretary does that. But he will delegate someone to meet the family, then he will talk to them briefly.

Then he does all the music and worship side of it also, that is more his area of expertise.

It is right to pay this person fairly, whether you want to call him a liturgy director or music director, doesn’t really matter in the context of the issue at hand.
 
clem456 said:
It is right to pay this person fairly, whether you want to call him a liturgy director or music director, doesn’t really matter in the context of the issue at hand.
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I never said a person shouldn’t be paid, so please don’t imply that. If he’s doing all that work, then yes, he should be paid. What I am saying is that the liturgy director function is redundant and shouldn’t even exist. He should still be paid for his work as a music director, but no committee should be making decisions about the liturgy, decisions in which the pastor “may” be involved. Sounds like he needs their permission!
 
englishredrose said:
am not stooping to such a provokotive question. :eek: as we are talking about regular worshippers in this thread being paid not someone who takes care of the whole parish…
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A professional musician and choir director is not a “regular worshipper” at the parish. They have a unique skill set that they would get paid for, if they were doing it for any other community organization other than the Catholic parish.

Nobody here is talking about paying the choir members to sing, or the people who play an instrument for one of the Masses once in a while - we’re talking about the person who is in charge of making sure all of those volunteers are present when they need to be, and know what they are supposed to be doing - the Coordinator of Music, or Director of Music, or whatever you want to call them. Quite often, that person is the pastor, in which case everyone involved with the music is a volunteer - but in cases where the pastor doesn’t have time, then organizing all of the choirs and making sure everyone has their music and their music licenses, and all that behind-the-scenes stuff that has to happen (like making sure the teen choir doesn’t sing Easter music in the middle of Lent because they feel the need to “pep things up a bit,” for example) - that’s what would be the paid position. Not stuff that any Jack or Jill can do in five minutes.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
He said that in response to EnglishRedRose, I believe, who DID say that.
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Yes I did say that and will support Curt Jester there because she thinks I am wrong to think they shouldn’t be paid but I stand my ground and think that they shouldn’t be paid at all. I will back down half a step and say admittedly in Cathedrals may be the music director should be paid there as its more showy than of parish services in my opinion of course. But in an ordinary working parish everyone should do their role voluntarily and not expect pay. The Priest is another issue which I refuse to go into because when they were paid at the time by the congregations this did not work as priests were forced to give good sermons according to the congregation rather than what they may need to hear at times. Plus Priests have to live somehow and most churches can’t afford to pay their priest a full living wage so it got taken out of parish church hands so to speak. To care for our souls as most Priests do is a job and a half in itself without the mundane work of the parishes they work in. So its as well that they do not have to think about getting themselves another living at the same time of caring for our souls, ie being there at the times we need them.

I will stick to my point though that without worshippers all of it a waste of time and wouldn’t need choir or liturgy directors etc. The building would be permanently locked. Worshippers are more important than any choir etc because no good performing without someone to perform to is there. If the choir were the only ones there… most people would give up their choir role and stop going or go elsewhere and sing.

We go because we want to worship God, not to get paid for being whatever director happen to be. 🤷
 
pnewton said:
I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, with on two regular musicians, one who works out of town a lot and with me working shift work, it is a rarity I have that luxury. Back when we had three to rotate, I could to that. Hopefully, I will get to again. For now, it is a rarity.
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come now - you can sit in the pew whenever you want to… 🙂 get to other services where you don’t sing perhaps ? Or go to a church that is open and go in and sit for awhile. Its peaceful I can tell you that and totally different to being in church when required to sing…
 
jmcrae said:
A professional musician and choir director is not a “regular worshipper” at the parish. They have a unique skill set that they would get paid for, if they were doing it for any other community organization other than the Catholic parish.

Nobody here is talking about paying the choir members to sing, or the people who play an instrument for one of the Masses once in a while - we’re talking about the person who is in charge of making sure all of those

Actually the title of the thread is Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?
so someone has decided to leap from musicians to directors 👍
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