Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[pnewton]

The Church does not pay you,

Actually, they do. Collections are not divvied up on the altar. They go into the bank and then out as expenditures. Saying the Church pays musicians is far more accurate and truthful than saying that parishoners pay musicians. Heck, why not go back to the parishoners employers and say they are the ones paying the bills at the Church. There is also a nugget of truth in that, none of which changes the fact, thatthe Church pays musicians. If you do not see this, I do not know what to think.

FYI - They also pay carpenters, electricians, janitors, etc., the Church that is, not the parishoners.

 

[kmo_9000]

Actually, they do. Collections are not divvied up on the altar. They go into the bank and then out as expenditures. Saying the Church pays musicians is far more accurate and truthful than saying that parishoners pay musicians. Heck, why not go back to the parishoners employers and say they are the ones paying the bills at the Church. There is also a nugget of truth in that, none of which changes the fact, thatthe Church pays musicians. If you do not see this, I do not know what to think.

FYI - They also pay carpenters, electricians, janitors, etc., the Church that is, not the parishoners.

Wrong. The Church would have NO money to pay you if the parishioners did not freely give money at the collection. It is a Church not a concert hall and we don’t sell tickets to listen to you sing.

The money that parishioners give at the collection is not a bill to be paid, it’s a charitable donation. Therefore the money that they give directly pays the expenses of the parish. You fail to see that churches and parishes are communities and not businesses.

Comparing what I said to employers paying the parishioners a paycheck is a logical fallacy and completely misses the point.

Doing this job is not a yearly full time job for you that you spend 40 hours every week of the year doing. You are doing it because you volunteer to do it. Not every Church has huge Choir’s and directors that do this because it is not required, otherwise they would go out and hire people to do this in every church.

 

[pnewton]

Wrong. The Church would have NO money to pay you if the parishioners did not freely give money at the collection. It is a Church not a concert hall and we don’t sell tickets to listen to you sing.

No, your opinion does not amount to right or wrong regardless of how highly you esteem it. You do not go to my Church at all, so you do not have to do anything. Fortunately, the Catholic Church allows for such decisions to be made locally. Clearly people different parts of the country have things that work differently. I believe we should be respectful of these differences and allow for them.

 

[kmo_9000]

No, your opinion does not amount to right or wrong regardless of how highly you esteem it. You do not go to my Church at all, so you do not have to do anything. Fortunately, the Catholic Church allows for such decisions to be made locally. Clearly people different parts of the country have things that work differently. I believe we should be respectful of these differences and allow for them.

It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact of how Churches operate. They are not businesses, they are communities of which you are supposedly a part of. You have also not said anything about how many hours you work every year. Because I have a feeling 40 hours a week is a pretty big extradition, and probably only near that high a few times a year. Since you completely ignored that point I will assume that to be true.

The difference between you and Janitors and secretaries is that they actually do spend 40 hours a week ALL YEAR LONG.

But lets say for a second that you should be paid when your volunteer hours get too high. How much money should you be paid? Should it be a yearly salary, or should you be paid by the hour? What then should your rate of pay be?

I don’t know of a single parish in my area that pays musicians / directors a salary to do what they do. Even if the issue was brought up I hardly think that they would accept the money. All I’m seeing from you’re arguments is an attitude of scrupulosity and probably a bit of pride too, but that’s up to you to work out isn’t it.

 

[SMHW]

So you are saying that the other members of the parish should pay you to do this? You seemed to have ignored this point that I brought up. The Church does not pay you, the money that would pay you comes from the rest of the parishioners who donate at the collection. Saying that we should pay 150 musicians each week would significantly increase the financial burden on the community.

I don’t get paid. And I don’t really consider myself a “musician”. I’m just a lowly choir member. I’m not even a cantor. Of the 150+ people at my parish who are involved in music ministry I’m not sure that even 4 of them get paid. Only one of them is full time. I would consider maybe 25 of those 150+ people to truly be “musicians”.

And yes, I understand that the parish is funded by the donations of the people. But just as communities hire teachers, firefighters, and street cleaners because they think (for whatever reason) it is preferable to using volunteers, sometimes the parish decides it is preferable to pay people to do the work in the parish. We’ve covered some of those reasons, such as the ability to find people with the preferred credentials and the accountability that employees have but volunteers typically don’t.

When I said people who invest a large amount of hours I was referring to people who have full time jobs in church administration, people that don’t have other normal jobs outside of the Church. I highly doubt that you spend 40 hours practicing and doing music related work INSIDE the church EVERY week of the year and that you simply ignore your real job to do this.

I wish I had a “real job”. I’ve been looking for a year.

But the point is, for my music director our parish *is *his “regular job”. And yes, he does spend at 40 hours a week at the parish. (He also oversees the other liturgical “players” so he is probably “managing” a thousand+ volunteers.) His wife spends a bit less time there but she puts in long hours too.

The difference between the priest and you is that the priest doesn’t have a job outside of his roll in the church, it’s our duty as Catholics to support our priests that’s why they deserve money for saying mass.

…and parish schools have higher tuition now that we can’t pay the religious brothers and sisters miniscule stipends like we did in the past. (But at least we did think they deserved to get paid for teaching our children.)
I got paid when I worked 20 hours a week as a Church admin assistant. At the time it was my only paid job. I got laid off when donations dropped due to changes in the economy. I understand the financial end of things.

's funny though, the reason we go to mass is not to hear you sing. The reason we go to mass is for the sacrifice of the Eucharistic. We go to mass for Jesus not you, and you should be going for Jesus too.

That is how it should be. Again, I am just a lowly choir member who does not get paid. I’m happy to volunteer the few hours of rehearsal I put in outside of Mass each week.

But I also know that there are plenty of people that do expect to hear exceptional music when they go to Mass and they will parish shop to find it.

My parish is an exceptional case. I understand that. But we have the resources to pay for our music leaders and so we do. And --if I may be vain on behalf of the director for a moment-- we sometimes have had outsiders think we must be a professional paid choir because our music director demands (and gets) some fairly professional sound out of a bunch of people, most of whom can’t even read music.

I don’t think everyone who sings (or plays an instrument) at Mass deserves the moniker “Church Musician”. But I think those who do deserve that title, deserve the rewards of their labors.

 

[pnewton]

It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact of how Churches operate. .

You are the reason for my signature. Yes, that is how the Church operates. I do not doubt we all agree on this. It is your use of English I take issue with. That and your judgmentalism, as in:

All I’m seeing from you’re arguments is an attitude of scrupulosity and probably a bit of pride too, but that’s up to you to work out isn’t it.

I have never had the slightest issue with scrupulosity. I do with pride. But in this matter, have I sounded more proud of my opinion, or have you?

Rather, I am a firm believer we should not take what works at our parish and try and shove it on others. This is simply not how the Catholic Church operates. See these questions?

How much money should you be paid? Should it be a yearly salary, or should you be paid by the hour? What then should your rate of pay be?

These are only matters of local concern and have no answer outside of the context of a local parish. Different options are more prudent in different locations. This isn’t rocket science. You say you are Catholic, and seem quite sure of your opinions. Then where does the Catholic Church forbid or even discourage paying musicians?

 

[SMHW]

It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact of how Churches operate. They are not businesses, they are communities of which you are supposedly a part of. You have also not said anything about how many hours you work every year. Because I have a feeling 40 hours a week is a pretty big extradition, and probably only near that high a few times a year. Since you completely ignored that point I will assume that to be true.

The Church is run like a not-for-profit business. And it is treated as such by the government. The “business” of the the local parish may be God’s work but the money gets handled like it is a business. That is why so many parishes have a “business manager”.

But lets say for a second that you should be paid when your volunteer hours get too high. How much money should you be paid? Should it be a yearly salary, or should you be paid by the hour? What then should your rate of pay be?

I don’t know of a single parish in my area that pays musicians / directors a salary to do what they do. Even if the issue was brought up I hardly think that they would accept the money. All I’m seeing from you’re arguments is an attitude of scrupulosity and probably a bit of pride too, but that’s up to you to work out isn’t it.

The parishes I know pay people in a variety of ways just like any other business does. Some people are paid salaries, some are paid hourly, and some are paid stipends. In most cases the diocese has directives for how Church employees are to be paid.

Most music directors I know are paid salaries. Accompanists and cantors are often paid stipends per Mass.

 

[clem456]

I think everyone should have the opportunity of “serving time” on a parish finance council. It can be a real eye opener to the realities of life. It is easy to say that “love will keep us alive” and that musicians should just be happy to praise God, but when the music directors’ kids need health care and education, it is incumbent on the -parish- to pay him or her, to the best of the parish’s ability. It is justice.

 

[april32010]

All I’m seeing from you’re arguments is an attitude of scrupulosity and probably a bit of pride too, but that’s up to you to work out isn’t it.

this an incredibly nasty statement,what in the world is your problem?

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Indubitably!

 

[kmo_9000]

You are the reason for my signature. Yes, that is how the Church operates. I do not doubt we all agree on this. It is your use of English I take issue with. That and your judgmentalism, as in:

Funny how you state this and then cut out my entire explanation without any refutation of what I said to explain how funds work. I know what I said is fact because my experience tells me so, I didn’t leave my statement without explanation. If you are to be paid it is the church community that is supporting you, it is a very practical and simple fact, it is not an opinion. Money doesn’t just appear out of nowhere.

If you think you should be paid then you need to explain why the community should support you were other volunteers do not get paid.

You are also mistaken in your assumption that judgmentalism is a problem here, everyone in this thread is being judgmental as the issue has been open to debate. And you even admit that you might have an issue with pride right after you accuse me of being “judgmental”:

I have never had the slightest issue with scrupulosity. I do with pride. But in this matter, have I sounded more proud of my opinion, or have you? :\

What does the bible say about people who can’t take correction or criticism? There is a very big difference between judgmentalism and condemnation, I suggest you look it up.

And then you continue to misrepresent what I said further:

Rather, I am a firm believer we should not take what works at our parish and try and shove it on others. This is simply not how the Catholic Church operates. See these questions?
These are only matters of local concern and have no answer outside of the context of a local parish.

I stated in the first post in this thread that if the person has a serious roll they should be paid. If the person’s job at the church is what makes up their livelihood then they should be paid.

But the OP put forward the example of a random person playing the organ getting paid for playing at the mass. You have failed to make any argument distinguishing that person from someone who gets up to read, any member of the choir, or members of the church council. I can very easily see a member of the church counsel putting in upwards of 20 - 40 hours a week into their volunteer positions but typically they have their own jobs just as most people who participate in music activities.

I find it very odd that people in these rolls never get up in arms demanding money but when it comes to whoever is in charge of music they think they deserve some kind of monetary compensation as if they contribute more to the parish than anyone else. I know first hand of examples where musicians have gotten up in arms over not being paid, and one example of a youth band who actually sued the parish after a dispute.

The bottom line though is that if it doesn’t make up your livelihood then I see very little reason to why you should be paid to play the organ or strum a guitar at mass where certain other volunteers would not be paid.

 

[pnewton]

If you think you should be paid then you need to explain why the community should support you were other volunteers do not get paid.

No. Just flat "no."This thread is not about me. I do not care one way or another who gets paid what in my own parish. That is the priest’s decision, not mine, and certainly not yours. I am not going back and forth with you on your character assaults. Again, the thread is not about me. You might want to re-check the rules here if you wish to stay.

 

[agapewolf]

So you are saying that the other members of the parish should pay you to do this? You seemed to have ignored this point that I brought up. The money that would pay you comes from the rest of the parishioners who donate at the collection.

Saying that we should pay 150 musicians each week would significantly increase the financial burden on the community. And if you are saying that maybe only you should be paid then why only you and not the rest of the people. They invest time too don’t they? And how much should we pay you? If you don’t get paid enough are you going to start a Union and go on strike?

When I said people who invest a large amount of hours I was referring to people who have full time jobs in church administration, people that don’t have other normal jobs outside of the Church. I highly doubt that you spend 40 hours practicing and doing music related work INSIDE the church EVERY week of the year and that you simply ignore your real job to do this.

The difference between the priest and you is that the priest doesn’t have a job outside of his roll in the church, it’s our duty as Catholics to support our priests that’s why they deserve money for saying mass.

It’s funny though, the reason we go to mass is not to hear you sing. The reason we go to mass is for the sacrifice of the Eucharist. We go to mass for Jesus not you, and you should be going for Jesus too.

Have you read this thread?

Some weeks, as a music director, I put up to 70 hours for the music ministry at my parish. I don’t have another job. There IS a pay scale for people that are music directors. THe money that goes into the collection also pays for a maintenance and cleaning crew. And a youth minister, and DRE.

And because I do this does NOT mean I think people go to mass for me.

 

[Sarabande]

** I think the bottom line is more of if the pastor and/or parish is willing and able to pay for their musicians OR if they aren’t willing and/or aren’t able to. Nobody outside of that particular parish should really care or judge them for their decisions, and respect/accept those decisions, especially if it is helping their parish thrive and survive. ** Even though much of my livelihood comes from Catholic church work (none of which are my parish), besides that of my secular music work and church work for other denominations, I also don’t begrudge parishes who can’t or won’t pay for their music. I understand what goes on financially and I know that at any time I could lose my positions at any of those parishes if the parish cannot afford it or if a new pastor or the current pastor decides that he does not want to pay the musicians any longer. I think as pnewton says, it is something decided locally.

Two of the pastors I work for both believe that their parish numbers and donations, along with a growth in a thriving parish life have gone up because of the “investment” they put into the music program there. I personally don’t think it is as both of them are wonderful priests and I love their homilies, but they cite the numbers and differences before and after. They also believe that sacred music is important for the liturgy and the roles of a music director and music ministers are very important for their parish. For them the reality of the situation was that (whether we like it or not) if their parish was in danger of being closed due to dwindling numbers and lack of donations and they saw how much the congregations grew and actually participated and became “alive” again, they were going to do what it took to keep the parish alive and thriving in order to keep the faith alive in their communities. In their particular parishes, the parishioners and community expressed and appreciated better music quality and musicianship for part of the spiritual needs and these pastors saw the numbers grow when they attempted to meet those spiritual needs of their parishioners.

I think it is in this thread where I mentioned one of the parishes I work for actually has set up a Friends of Sacred Music, where parishioners can donate towards the music program whether building up the music library, paying for professional musicians, etc. without having to use what is given to the parish. It pays for 6 professional, classically-trained cantors and other guest instrumentalists such as string players, brass and wind players, etc. It allows for the parish to utilize some of the most beautiful sacred music written throughout the centuries. In the two years since this was enacted along with a change in the music ministry, they have seen a growth in the parish as well as better participation from the congregation. I have often heard people in the pews singing harmony to the hymns and they blow the roof off. BUT this is a priority for this particular parish. It may not necessarily be important to the other parish down the street, so you can’t force that music model on them, as it may not help them thrive like this particular parish, and vice versa.

Those pastors who choose to pay their musicians and the pastors who choose not to pay are the “bosses” and they know better than any of us what is and is not needed in their parishes and what is affordable. We also have to remember that paying musicians and artists is nothing new for the Church. Wealthier parishes, individual bishops, popes, etc. were known to be some of the greatest patrons of musicians and artists within the liturgy and outside of it. That is why we have such a rich and long heritage in the sacred arts. It was considered important through the centuries as part of people’s spiritual growth and needs, otherwise they would have never put the money out initially. Not everyone needs or desires the sacred arts for part of their spiritual growth and fulfillment, but just from the numerous threads on music and art on these forums, there are many people who obviously do and the Church has recognized that for centuries.

 

[Sarabande]

Have you read this thread?

Some weeks, as a music director, I put up to 70 hours for the music ministry at my parish. I don’t have another job. There IS a pay scale for people that are music directors. THe money that goes into the collection also pays for a maintenance and cleaning crew. And a youth minister, and DRE.

And because I do this does NOT mean I think people go to mass for me.

I agree. I know very few church musicians who think people go to mass for them. And you are definitely not alone with the amount of work and hours a full-time music director puts in their ministry. Anyone who works in that ministry knows this.

 

[pnewton]

** I think the bottom line is more of if the pastor and/or parish is willing and able to pay for their musicians OR if they aren’t willing and/or aren’t able to. Nobody outside of that particular parish should really care or judge them for their decisions, and respect/accept those decisions, especially if it is helping their parish thrive and survive.**.

This is the way the Catholic Church has always operated. It works well. I do not care one way or another what my priest decides, but it is his decision, not mine. If I wanted to give my (name removed by moderator)ut at my parish, I would. Iwouldn’t dream of trying to tell others what to do at parishes I know nothing about.