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jmjZelie
Guest
Thank you. God has helped me over these several days to discern His will for us. I may pop in on the other thread and update it.
Should Catholic Teenagers understand and be knowledgable of NFP?
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Rau
Guest
That is simply wrong. See post #86. Contraception may be used in exactly the same circumstances as NFP. One is a bad act , one is not. The “contraceptive mentality” may be nowhere in evidence in either case!! Use of contraception is not what distinguishes the “contraceptive mentality”. Do you see the absurdness of the expression?
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Rau
Guest
And no one on this thread has said otherwise. What has been said is that to describe the misuse of NFP has being akin to the “contraceptive mentality” is absurd language. See post #86 and those nearby. Contraception is a means - it does not reflect motive or lack of it.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
I have no idea if LS is familiar as familiar with traditionalism as I am, but a couple of points.
For background, I grew up traditionalist, went almost exclusively to Tridentine Masses (approved by the local ordinary) as a young adult, and was married in the Tridentine Mass. I love the EF very much indeed, though due to certain concerns (distance, primarily) I don’t attend it now.
However, there can be elements of seriously problematic thinking about NFP in some trad churches, and I’m not talking SSPX here–as I said above, these are churches under the approval of the local ordinary. In two specific cases pertaining to financial reasons to avoid, I saw some real issues in the way that the priests thought and taught.
In the first, the priest gave a sermon on NFP. Having quoted the mistranslation of Humanae Vitae (that a couple needs “grave” reasons to avoid), he went on to say that since Pope St. Pius X’s family had ten children and lived in a one-room, dirt-floored house, no one in modern times and places can use money as an excuse to postpone having children.
This ignores, of course, the fact that living in those sort of conditions in the US will get your kids taken away post-haste and that Pope St. Pius X’s parents could keep their kids home from school and send them out to help the family earn a living at ten years old or so, which isn’t exactly possible here.
In another, a different priest, also trad, was speaking to a friend of mine. Friend stays at home with the kids while her husband works. Her husband makes okay money–not fantastic, but a steady income. They had two kids at the time, and were planning on conceiving another in the next year or so, using NFP to avoid in the meantime, but had to save up enough money for a downpayment on a car that would fit three car seats first. I can assure you they weren’t thinking BMW or Mercedes SUV, either–we’re talking about a reliable car big enough to fit their growing family. This was considered a frivolous reason by the priest, and quite unacceptable. Again, never mind that not having a car that would fit three car seats would get your kids taken away by CPS, and even if it wouldn’t, would be objectively unsafe in this day and age. This same priest said that the Marquette method of NFP (ie, using urine hormone testing) was always an unacceptable method to use because it used a device rather than observations and was too precise.
As I said above, I do very much love the EF, but after that, the (generally good, but in the area of sex, kids, and NFP, quite bad) marriage prep that DH and I got from our EF priest, and my experiences growing up in traditionalist churches, I’m not inclined to attend one with young children, at least not regularly. I don’t want my kids, as happened to kids at one of those churches, to be unwelcome because of their race, and I don’t want to have to put up with getting pamphlets from people on why DH and I shouldn’t be married because we’re (gasp of horror!) mixing the races in doing so. I don’t want my daughters taught by their peers that it’s ungodly and unfeminine to be well-educated or play sports. I think those are seriously unhealthy messages, especially when coming from authority figures at church, and that kind of thing, unfortunately, is what a lot of people think of when they think traditionalist Catholic. It’s definitely a case of tarring with the same brush, but when so many communities have these problems, one does begin to wonder what on earth is going on.
One last point, and it’s a bit of a quibble, but there you have it. Couples who use NFP are also handing their fertility over to God.
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jmjZelie
Guest
With what, precisely, are you disagreeing?
With the term “contraceptive mentality”?
I only borrowed the phrase to say that no one is saying that people who practice NFP must therefore have a contraceptive mentality.
It was Pope St. JPII who coined the phrase “contraceptive mentality”. If you find it absurd, fair enough, but it is his description, not my own.
I am not asserting the existence of a “practicing NFP with a contraceptive mentality” either. In fact, I was saying that what the Church teaches is that it is possible to have just OR unjust reasons for avoiding pregnancy. The only licit means to avoid pregnancy is via periodic continence or total abstinence. But merely using a licit means does not justify an unjust avoidance of pregnancy.
That is Church teaching.
The phrases that are used as common colloquialisms or turns of phrase belong to those who create or use them. I will stick with precise formulations for my own understanding. Cuz that is how I roll.
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Rau
Guest
You use the expression “contraceptive mentality” as though it is meaningfully descriptive. Respond to post #86 which shows that it simply is not.With what, precisely, are you disagreeing?
With the term “contraceptive mentality”?
I only borrowed the phrase to say that no one is saying that people who practice NFP must therefore have a contraceptive mentality.
It was Pope St. JPII who coined the phrase “contraceptive mentality”. If you find it absurd, fair enough, but it is his description, not my own.
I am not asserting the existence of a “practicing NFP with a contraceptive mentality” either. In fact, I was saying that what the Church teaches is that it is possible to have just OR unjust reasons for avoiding pregnancy. The only licit means to avoid pregnancy is via periodic continence or total abstinence. But merely using a licit means does not justify an unjust avoidance of pregnancy.
That is Church teaching.
The phrases that are used as common colloquialisms or turns of phrase belong to those who create or use them. I will stick with precise formulations for my own understanding. Cuz that is how I roll.
Most of what you write here is not nor has ever been in dispute in this thread.
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bitterhope
Guest
You chopped of the first part of my post where I was telling the other poster that she is wrong for accusing us of judging her or anyone else and that no one has said NFP is evil. I really don’t like how you purposely distort my post just to make it something you can disagree with. It’s uncalled for. This twisting of things on CAF really needs to stop.
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Rau
Guest
I didn’t seek to twist anything, just to focus on the point with which I take issue. And in the case of your post, absolutely no twisting or miss-representation resulted.
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bitterhope
Guest
No one on CAF made up the phrase contraceptive mentality. It is something used by clergy as well as lay people. If you do not like the wording, please take it up with the bishops and even the Vatican because we didn’t come up with it. Have them repeal it’s use and help them come up with a different phrase if you like. As it stands now, the phrase is legitimate.
Please stop jumping on everyday people for saying something that originated with the clergy.
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Rau
Guest
If the expression is intended to be used as we see it used in this thread, could you please respond to post #86 to explain why it is being used properly?
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
I am not seeing major points of disagreement in the theory and practice, but in the verbiage used to describe something. Verbiage that has been used by a Pontiff, but not officially endorsed by eh Church, nor denounced. So isn’t this merely a matter of people’s opinions on the adjectives used rather than the thought process involved in child rearing.
IMO, in the words of Elsa, let it go.
IMO, in the words of Elsa, let it go.
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Rau
Guest
How did I do that? I quoted you accurately, without changing the meaning or removing any context which affected meaning. You are manufacturing a claim with no basis at all!
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jmjZelie
Guest
UbiCaritas,
While such problems can be found in some groups who lean toward tradional Catholic expressions of piety, it is only fair to say that very serious problems exist in all the Church. We don’t denigrate all priests because of the presence of pederasts, for example, so we shouldn’t assume that ANY group in the universal Church is rotten due to the presence of some bad apples.
With regard to handing over of fertility, is there ANY phrase that I could have used that expresses the situation to which I was referring? I tried at least half a dozen phrases, and couldn’t come up with any phrase that someone wouldnt object to. The reality is though, that practicing NFP is different from not practicing NFP. It is a different path, requiring different actions and philosophies. I was not implying an active withholding. Let’s recall that just because A = B does not automatically imply that ‘not A’ =/= ‘not B’. That is a logical fallacy, which we should avoid committing. I hope that clears it up.
I have a concern about what my children we exposed to as well. For us, our geographical parish has problematic catechesis at times. It is a regular diocesan parish, and I volunteer there. My son’s REP teacher, who is personally wonderful, has admitted she does not know her faith very well. I like her very much, but she doesn’t know the Act of Contrition or the teaching on mortal sin or venial sin and she was the one responsible for preparing our students (and my son) for their First Confession. She happily deferred to me on those questions and asked me to teach some classes in her stead. I was happy to oblige. So that solved that particular problem, but the general point is that there are problems everywhere in the Church right now. Catholics everywhere, in all corners of the Catholic Church, are waking up to a massive problem with poor, inadequate, heretodox or overly rigid catechesis. Cardinal Dolan even spoke about this problem a couple years ago.
While such problems can be found in some groups who lean toward tradional Catholic expressions of piety, it is only fair to say that very serious problems exist in all the Church. We don’t denigrate all priests because of the presence of pederasts, for example, so we shouldn’t assume that ANY group in the universal Church is rotten due to the presence of some bad apples.
With regard to handing over of fertility, is there ANY phrase that I could have used that expresses the situation to which I was referring? I tried at least half a dozen phrases, and couldn’t come up with any phrase that someone wouldnt object to. The reality is though, that practicing NFP is different from not practicing NFP. It is a different path, requiring different actions and philosophies. I was not implying an active withholding. Let’s recall that just because A = B does not automatically imply that ‘not A’ =/= ‘not B’. That is a logical fallacy, which we should avoid committing. I hope that clears it up.
I have a concern about what my children we exposed to as well. For us, our geographical parish has problematic catechesis at times. It is a regular diocesan parish, and I volunteer there. My son’s REP teacher, who is personally wonderful, has admitted she does not know her faith very well. I like her very much, but she doesn’t know the Act of Contrition or the teaching on mortal sin or venial sin and she was the one responsible for preparing our students (and my son) for their First Confession. She happily deferred to me on those questions and asked me to teach some classes in her stead. I was happy to oblige. So that solved that particular problem, but the general point is that there are problems everywhere in the Church right now. Catholics everywhere, in all corners of the Catholic Church, are waking up to a massive problem with poor, inadequate, heretodox or overly rigid catechesis. Cardinal Dolan even spoke about this problem a couple years ago.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Yes Pope John Paul used the term Contraceptive Mentality. He used it in reference to contraception and abortion.
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jmjZelie
Guest
No I most certainly DO NOT. I do not use that phrase. I ASKED what others meant by that phrase.
Pope St. John Paul II coined the phrase. I saw it repeated here in reference to NFP. I asked for clarification of how the poster meant to use the phrase.
I have only been asserting the teachings of the Church without recourse to imprecise colloquialisms.
Do you understand that there is a difference between asking someone their meaning, and espousing the same viewpoint as someone? Please stop attributing to me views which are, as clearly demonstrated by this very thread, not my own.
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jmjZelie
Guest
Right. Which is why I asked for clarification in how it was being used in reference to NFP.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Oh, my post wasn’t an attack on traditionalists in general: it was an explanation of why some people react poorly to hearing that a person self-identifies as traditional. For example, when I initially read your post describing yourself as such, I cringed a bit inside, because after spending all but the last three years of my life in those circles, I couldn’t help but assume for a few seconds that that means that your response to, say, my DD toddling over to yours after Mass would be to yank yours away lest mine infest her with her Hispanic-ness. Or that, some fifteen years hence, if my daughter decided she wants to be an engineer you’d tell her that that was sinful/unfeminine/Not God’s Plan For Women.
Totally unfair, of course: I’ve never picked up on anything like that in your posts in general, and I’ll certainly assume the best in that you wouldn’t be as unkind to my toddler as the parishioners at the church I attended while in high school were to those minority kids one family adopted, but that’s the reaction one has when one sees members of a particular group react like that over and over and over again, and then “meets” someone who identifies with that group. Likewise the trads who insist that the Novus Ordo is probably invalid and almost certainly sinful to attend, or that the Pope isn’t the pope, and so on. Because they are, population-wise, nowhere near so large as the rest of Catholicism, the kooks do tend to stand out more than the nutters in Catholicism at large, even though Catholicism at large has no shortage of 'em, either.
Re phrasing: why not just something like “those of us who don’t need to use NFP at the present time?” Or “those of us who don’t use anything to avoid children for now?” (Thereby including total abstinence as well as NFP.) As you’ve seen from this thread, I don’t think NFP is required of all Catholic couples, and you know I’m not attacking you there.
FWIW, DH and I will probably be teaching the kids their faith formation stuff at home as well. We’re planning on homeschooling anyway, and like you, I am decidedly unimpressed with the local parish’s faith formation program. I’m not sure yet (and as DD’s not quite 2, we have a while) whether we’d send them to the church’s classes in addition, but that would be (sadly) more for the ability to meet other kids than for the formation they’d receive. I don’t think they’d hear anything heretical, per se–we do have a good priest–but the program seems insipid at best.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I guess I would like to understand as well.
I think users of NFP and those who don’t use any means to space, are on the same team. Especially practicing Catholics.
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Rau
Guest
In post #116 you wrote:
*NOBODY is saying that people who practice NFP have contraceptive mentality. Some people are saying it is possible to be that opposed to procreation that some people, though they choose a licit means, have an unholy intention that correlates to the mentality of those who make use of contraception. *
You originally asked what does the expression mean, but here you use the term, presuming it to have meaning in the context of this discussion.
It does not follow that a person using contraception is any more opposed by to procreation (having children) than one who uses abstinence. (The former have just chosen poor means to avoid.) This was the point of post #86.
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